Cozy1200 Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Is it normal for nutes plate to be somewhat squashed? All 4 of mine appear to be slightly smashed. I ran a bolt into one and it went in without much problem. Four of these nutplates took me 2 hours to make! I was probably overly careful with laying it out and making it, but it's good practice. Quote Drew Chaplin (aka the Foam Whisperer) --- www.Cozy1200.com - I'm a builder now! --- Brace for impact... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schmeddz Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Is it normal for nutes plate to be somewhat squashed? All 4 of mine appear to be slightly smashed. I ran a bolt into one and it went in without much problem. Four of these nutplates took me 2 hours to make! I was probably overly careful with laying it out and making it, but it's good practice. The nutplates are squashed on purpose for bolt/screw retention. Think of them as locknuts. Great for preventing your fastners from falling out under vibration. They also have a little dry lube wich can account for ease of installation of your bolt. (Clean it with acetone and it's not so easy!) The front of the AirForce F-4 Phantom jet intake was covered with hidden nut plates. Imagine a screw coming loose and going down the intake with a running engine. Don't ask me how I know this!!! Think 'grip length' of your fastner going into the nutplate. Your nutplate looks purdey! Nice work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuinnessGuy74 Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 I concur with schmeddz. I work for a NASCAR team and all of our nutplates are squashed for tension. I used to wonder why that was so too. Nice looking work as usual Drew... Jim Quote Cozy MKIV #1565 (Chapter 6) Charlotte, NC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAF_Zoom Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Just one thing... when you remove a bolt fron said nutplate... THEY ARE TO BE SCRAP.. they loose all (well not all but their intended) retention capabilities. In short they are a one shot deal... Well at least in the certified world... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cozy Girrrl Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Drew, thats how they work. For nutplates you might want to get some G-10 epoxy/glass circuit board substrate, the common size is 1/16" thick. It just like laying up 6-8 layers of BD with MGS. Scruff it up and glass it in with some flox, great for mounting all kinds of stuff. ..Chrissi & Randi Quote CG Products www.CozyGirrrl.com Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B Turbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schmeddz Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Drew, thats how they work. For nutplates you might want to get some G-10 epoxy/glass circuit board substrate, the common size is 1/16" thick. It just like laying up 6-8 layers of BD with MGS. Scruff it up and glass it in with some flox, great for mounting all kinds of stuff. ..Chrissi & Randi And if you use old circuit boards you can solder all kinds of electronical stuff on it to make it look cool. Heheheheheh:cool: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynn Erickson Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Just one thing... when you remove a bolt fron said nutplate... THEY ARE TO BE SCRAP.. they loose all (well not all but their intended) retention capabilities. In short they are a one shot deal... Well at least in the certified world... where did you get that idea. they are used on the engine cowling and mine has 50 of them for the top and bottom. they have been on there for over 5 years and have been on and off over 400 times. I have replaced maybe 2 of them in 5 years because they galled. have had a few feel a bit loose so you just give them a squeeze with a pair of vice grips and they are good to go another 400 times. note, if you use stainless steel screws they can gall if driven in to fast as when using a drill motor but the electric screw driver is a bit slower and does a good job without galling them. in the certified world they are only replace if they loose their retention if you had to replace them every time a bolt was removed there would not be any certified planes flying. Quote Evolultion Eze RG -a two place side by side-200 Knots on 200 HP. A&P / pilot for over 30 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schmeddz Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Just one thing... when you remove a bolt fron said nutplate... THEY ARE TO BE SCRAP.. they loose all (well not all but their intended) retention capabilities. In short they are a one shot deal... Well at least in the certified world... Where are you certifying airplanes??? Hidden nutplates are constantly re-used. That's why they are riveted in place. This is so you can quickly take off and replace panels, doors, and cowls, etc, for inspections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAF_Zoom Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 where did you get that idea. they are used on the engine cowling and mine has 50 of them for the top and bottom. they have been on there for over 5 years and have been on and off over 400 times. I have replaced maybe 2 of them in 5 years because they galled. have had a few feel a bit loose so you just give them a squeeze with a pair of vice grips and they are good to go another 400 times. note, if you use stainless steel screws they can gall if driven in to fast as when using a drill motor but the electric screw driver is a bit slower and does a good job without galling them. in the certified world they are only replace if they loose their retention if you had to replace them every time a bolt was removed there would not be any certified planes flying. One can do that... but practice is to get rid of them when they come off... That's what is done on widebodies or engines (turbines). But in these situation cost if not the driving factor... safety is... I would not want to be the licenced tech (the one that signed off on the repair) that as to explanes to the NTSB that... well I used my visegrip to clamp them down a bit and they looked good... The tool marks I left... well surelly they can't be a cause for fracture/failure... But Lynn, like you said... you don't clamp down these nuts on a certified bird... so why would you do so one your experimental? Is it less prone to failure ? But I understand how one can save a few $$$ by doing so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMann Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 One can do that... but practice is to get rid of them when they come off... That's what is done on widebodies or engines (turbines).I think most everyone here is flying Rutan based Canards. There may ba a turbine out there but most likely, not on this forum. Although I may argue with Lynn from time to time, I would have to defer to his judgement on this one as it is from a more closely aligned perspective and experience level. I don't do aluminum. Quote T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18 Velocity/RG N951TM Mann's Airplane Factory We add rocket's to everything! 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAF_Zoom Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Where are you certifying airplanes??? Hidden nutplates are constantly re-used. That's why they are riveted in place. This is so you can quickly take off and replace panels, doors, and cowls, etc, for inspections. I worked for a major aircraft turbine manufacturer. I don't work on small GA planes. But best practices are just that... best practices Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAF_Zoom Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 I think most everyone here is flying Rutan based Canards. There may ba a turbine out there but most likely, not on this forum. Although I may argue with Lynn from time to time, I would have to defer to his judgement on this one as it is from a more closely aligned perspective and experience level. I don't do aluminum. Well I value Lynn's input very much I'm just a bit strict and always stick to best practice. And this little thing we are discussing here was picked up in college... where we (aircraft maintenace technicians) are taught to... when you take one of these babies off... it goes in the garbage... and a new one goes on... Re-using them is probably ok... as Lynn's pointed out... he as never suffered a problem... buts then again its the one time you do have a problem that tend to bit you in the ass... these thing have a habit of ending up in places you don't wan't them to... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMann Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 ... when you take one of these babies off... it goes in the garbage... and a new one goes on... Yeah, agreed ......... but we're not taking them off. We are just removing a bolt and then replacing it. that was the scope of the thread. .....have been on and off over 400 times. ...... The cowlings ....... not the nut plates. Quote T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18 Velocity/RG N951TM Mann's Airplane Factory We add rocket's to everything! 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfryer Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Nut plates are used (at least in the long-ez) to secure the canard. Are you suggesting that we remove the (glassed-in) nutplate and replace it every time the canard is removed and replaced? And that brings up another question. The plans show the k1000-4 nutplate riveted to a an970-4 washer. That assembly is then glassed to the f22 bulkhead. However the an970-4 washer looks a little to small to rivet the nut plate to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Swenson Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 There is no way that you throw away a riveted anchor nut (ms21075/m221047(k1000)/ms21059/etc). What would be the purpose? If you want to argue about even using them or not---that is another issue. I think safzoom is confused with ms21042's which you get rid of after each use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Zeitlin Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Just one thing... when you remove a bolt fron said nutplate... THEY ARE TO BE SCRAP.. they loose all (well not all but their intended) retention capabilities. In short they are a one shot deal... Well at least in the certified world... Completely untrue. Chapter 7 of AC43-13-1B addresses locking nuts, including locking nutplates. Paragraphs 63 and 64, in particular. There's even a table of torques for RE-USED locking nuts (including nutplates). If you were taught that nutplates that are to be riveted or welded to aircraft structure are not to be re-used, then you were taught incorrectly. You want to throw the BOLT away - go right ahead. But there is no need whatsoever to have any doubt about re-using the nutplate. Quote Marc J. Zeitlin Burnside Aerospace marc_zeitlin@alum.mit.edu www.cozybuilders.org copyright © 2024 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Nut plates are used (at least in the long-ez) to secure the canard. Are you suggesting that we remove the (glassed-in) nutplate and replace it every time the canard is removed and replaced? And that brings up another question. The plans show the k1000-4 nutplate riveted to a an970-4 washer. That assembly is then glassed to the f22 bulkhead. However the an970-4 washer looks a little to small to rivet the nut plate to. that part is in side the spar. the canard has a nut and bolt to hold it in place (and a pin). not the k1000 we see in the pic.can we reuse the main gear after a landing ? or trash it along with all the small parts holding it together ? do i smell a armchair builder in the house ?? Quote Steve M. Parkins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMann Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 .......the canard has a nut and bolt to hold it in place (and a pin). not the k1000 we see in the pic. Negats! The Long-EZ uses a nutplate to mount the canard to the bulkhead.The Cozy and others may be dirfferent. Quote T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18 Velocity/RG N951TM Mann's Airplane Factory We add rocket's to everything! 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfryer Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Negats! The Long-EZ uses a nutplate to mount the canard to the bulkhead. The Cozy and others may be dirfferent. Thanks TMann, I was not refering to the lift tab attachments, rather the nutplate called out (in the long-ez plans) that is glassed to F-22. Is there a preferred alternative? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMann Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 That's what is called out in the plans. that's how i intend to mount mine. Quote T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18 Velocity/RG N951TM Mann's Airplane Factory We add rocket's to everything! 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfryer Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 That's what is called out in the plans. that's how i intend to mount mine. That is what I was intending to do as well, however the washer called out in the plans seems to small to rivet the nut plate to. Please see photo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMann Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 That is what I was intending to do as well, however the washer called out in the plans seems to small to rivet the nut plate to. Please see photo. [ATTACH]2330[/ATTACH] Hmmmmmm ....... may have to rivit to a piece of aluminum. That's the way I did the nutplates I used for my shoulder attach points. Quote T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18 Velocity/RG N951TM Mann's Airplane Factory We add rocket's to everything! 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfryer Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Perhaps I have the wrong nutplate. If I had the one pictured at the start of this thread it might work.... Of course a larger washer might work, or I have some extra 1/8" 2024-T3 available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argoldman Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Perhaps I have the wrong nutplate. If I had the one pictured at the start of this thread it might work.... Of course a larger washer might work, or I have some extra 1/8" 2024-T3 available. there are nut plates with smaller dimensions between the rivet holes. Look in ACS Quote I Canardly contain myself! Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMann Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 there are nut plates with smaller dimensions between the rivet holes. Look in ACSYeah, I don't think that's a k1000 nutplate. The K1000/MK1000 doesn't have the long ears on it. Quote T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18 Velocity/RG N951TM Mann's Airplane Factory We add rocket's to everything! 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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