airwrench Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 No those are some cool cad's!! (Did I detect the usage of carbon on the center section spar?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynn Erickson Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 Thats a very short pilot if his feet are behind the F22. a 6 footer will have his feet about 6" to 8" in front if it. also the toes need to be in front of the pedals during a flight not on the pedals. you need to relax your legs to a straight out position for all but takeoff and landing. if you try to fly with the legs bent and on the pedals your legs won't last more then 15 minutes in that position. And he does not seem to be able to reach the radios. if you think you can lean forward to do that, you can't. and then add some G's and you really can't. thats the problem a lot of engineers have with computer drawings. they design all kinds of contraptions that look good on paper but people can't fit in them. Quote Evolultion Eze RG -a two place side by side-200 Knots on 200 HP. A&P / pilot for over 30 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super-eze Posted August 31, 2009 Author Share Posted August 31, 2009 The weight of the frame as shown is 131.86# Quote Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super-eze Posted August 31, 2009 Author Share Posted August 31, 2009 I have to re-check to height of my pilot. Quote Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super-eze Posted August 31, 2009 Author Share Posted August 31, 2009 I really should just give up the rudder peddal issue and go stock. Quote Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super-eze Posted August 31, 2009 Author Share Posted August 31, 2009 OK, Here it the 6 foot pilot the other was 5'7. The seat is adjustable so it can slide forward. Quote Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynn Erickson Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 The weight of the frame as shown is 131.86# Thats heavy, a long ez at that stage is 65 lbs and thats with the outside skin. the one that we are currently repairing is only 195 lbs for the complete fuselage with nose, strakes, spar, firewall, seats, inst. panel and outside skin. a steel structure with the same rigidity as a fiberglass box structure is going to be a lot heavier. the only way to make it the same weight is to design every tube to the optimum size and wall thickness. very hard to do in aircraft because the loads change from tension to compression all during the flight and that requires that every tube is up sized so it can carry all types of loading. if the tube was taking only a tension load it would be light. but when you add for things like weldability, vibration, impact loading, flexing, point loading from attachments and shape requirements (curved tubes, space for the occupants and to fit under the outside skin) the upsizing required adds to the weight in a big way. thats why most light steel aircraft use fabric to cover the steel tubes. if you going to cover the tubes with a solid fiber glass skin then you might as well make the whole plane out of the same material and get the benefit of a sandwich structure. good thing for most of us that Burt figured this out 40 years ago. Quote Evolultion Eze RG -a two place side by side-200 Knots on 200 HP. A&P / pilot for over 30 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super-eze Posted August 31, 2009 Author Share Posted August 31, 2009 Lynn, Burt wanted to make a very efficient and therefore light design. So I don't know if the comment "good thing Burt figured this out 40 years ago" really applies, but I do appreciate all of your comments. The differences in construction between this and an EZ are about to end. As soon as I put this frame in the shell then it’s all EZ construction from there. With an IO 360 and Main spar, wing spar and canard spar layup (and skins) from the cozy MKIV it can have a higher gross weight. There are many tube and glass aircraft flying today, the sportsman to name one. This is absolutely do-able. Yes it will be a little heavy but I don’t think it will be a fatty Mc Fat Fat with cheese. Quote Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge 513 Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Lynn, Burt wanted to make a very efficient and therefore light design. So I don't know if the comment "good thing Burt figured this out 40 years ago" really applies, but I do appreciate all of your comments. The differences in construction between this and an EZ are about to end. As soon as I put this frame in the shell then it’s all EZ construction from there. With an IO 360 and Main spar, wing spar and canard spar layup (and skins) from the cozy MKIV it can have a higher gross weight. There are many tube and glass aircraft flying today, the sportsman to name one. This is absolutely do-able. Yes it will be a little heavy but I don’t think it will be a fatty Mc Fat Fat with cheese. Neverminding all the if's regarding how you are attaching dynamic fiberglass loads to this tubular steel frame... why would someone want a plane that weighed as much, cost as much, as a CozyIV, but was a Longeze with no baggage room? Why dont you do something interesting with the longerons,like lower them, for better visibility, change the shape of the airframe or canopy, or fatten it or put a semi-stagger seat in it...or SOMETHING? At least turn this into a "cool concept car" kinda thing...not just an exorcise in futility. Quote Self confessed Wingnut. Now think about it...wouldn't you rather LIVE your life, rather than watch someone else's, on Reality T.V.? Get up off that couch!!! =) Progress; Fuselage on all three, with outside and inside nearly complete. 8 inch extended nose. FHC done. Canard finished. ERacer wings done with blended winglets. IO540 starting rebuild. Mounting Spar. Starting strake ribs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 it feels like a Vega (not that we didnt want them in 1975) but you have the means to build some thing new and cool cozy -on-water would be fun;) Quote Steve M. Parkins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge 513 Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 No. Does not feel like a Vega. A Vega had smallish back seats and a hatchback so you could carry something around in it. A tubular Longeze would just be a heavier copy of something already in existence. A Tube Eze's only advantage is you get is to see the ugly tube framework[vis. funky ultralight] inside the plane when you sit in it....and in a real Longeze you see a sleek smooth interior. There, I coined the name. "Tube-Eze". Please supereze, turn the plane into something that warrants some interest for the added weight. You've got some skills in copying things. Extend yourself and use some design ability and make it something cool. Quote Self confessed Wingnut. Now think about it...wouldn't you rather LIVE your life, rather than watch someone else's, on Reality T.V.? Get up off that couch!!! =) Progress; Fuselage on all three, with outside and inside nearly complete. 8 inch extended nose. FHC done. Canard finished. ERacer wings done with blended winglets. IO540 starting rebuild. Mounting Spar. Starting strake ribs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Kriley Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 it feels like a Vega (not that we didnt want them in 1975) but you have the means to build some thing new and cool cozy -on-water would be fun;) Now THAT would be a real challenge...given the rotation and landing speeds of a Cozy, seems like attempting that on water would be just about impossible... But then again, Lake Erie should be long enough... Quote Phil Kriley Cozy #1460 Chapter 13 - nose Right wing done - working on right winglet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCPJCP Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Solid model drawings of tubing space frame are pretty, but a wasted effort. A better use of time would be to build a set of steel molds. Rolled sheet metal could form perfect wing surfaces... The body would require the talents of a good tin knocker ! Something like an E-Racer/Cozy options for a 2 - 3- 4 seat design. The side by side sells, tandem seating has a very limited market. (Mistake Velocity Russia is making with their Intruder project) Sleeker than a Velocity, more like an E-Racer... Perhaps only canopy and seat locations define the differences. Include wheel wells in strakes, to allow assembly with or without retracts. (if fixed wheels are installed, simply cover the wheel wells, than can be converted to retracts at a later date) Strakes part of the wings, allowing disassembled plane to fit in a truck or shipboard container ? Pre-Preg Glass / Kevlar / Carbon could then be mass produced with proper vacuum bagging / Autoclave high pressure / high temperature cure. Glass for low end model, Carbon /Kevlar for the big spenders. Outer layer of carbon for the tub, with an inner liner of Kevlar for crew protection. Inject foam between outer tub and inner liner after molding (for insulation) and crash protection (energy absorption). The years and years needed to build a plans design is what has stalled the growth of the canard fleet. Look at what RV has done with mass produced kits... Need something between a complete kit, and a scratch built design ! Thinking out loud... John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super-eze Posted August 31, 2009 Author Share Posted August 31, 2009 Need something between a complete kit, and a scratch built design ! I agree that there is a need for something in between. Quote Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 The years and years needed to build a plans design is what has stalled the growth of the canard fleet. Look at what RV has done with mass produced kits... Need something between a complete kit, and a scratch built design ! Thinking out loud... John That's a good idea, something in-between... I was trying to put a "quick start kit" together that had all the foam parts pre-cut (seat backs, bulkheads, etc) all the layers of glass pre-cut, sides already together and cut to shape, all wood pre-cut to size. Even have the forms that are needed for the Cozy sides and main spar pre-cut, for easy assembly. All a builder would need to do is mix epoxy and start laying glass. Sure, it would cost more than just the raw materials, but it would be a lot cheaper than buying a kit. Plus you're still learning the skills required to build a composite plane. I talked to a few "older heads" about the concept, they thought it would help sell a few, but it's a real difficult world selling small numbers to a limited market. Just look at all the mom and pop's in the home built industry, just trying to stay a float. This market has a few things making it a hard sell, it's a canard, it's plans built and it's made of composites. I think most people think of the smell, the sanding, the dust and they would rather deal with a "normal" looking plane made of metal that has almost all the holes pre-pinched for them. Van's has a really good business model as well, which really helps sell more planes. Just my thinking out loud thoughts... Quote Best regards, Bruce Sturgill http://www.pursuitofflight.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Limo EZ Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 What about fabric cover? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAF_Zoom Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 That's a good idea, something in-between... I was trying to put a "quick start kit" together that had all the foam parts pre-cut (seat backs, bulkheads, etc) all the layers of glass pre-cut, sides already together and cut to shape, all wood pre-cut to size. Even have the forms that are needed for the Cozy sides and main spar pre-cut, for easy assembly. All a builder would need to do is mix epoxy and start laying glass. Sure, it would cost more than just the raw materials, but it would be a lot cheaper than buying a kit. Plus you're still learning the skills required to build a composite plane. I talked to a few "older heads" about the concept, they thought it would help sell a few, but it's a real difficult world selling small numbers to a limited market. Just look at all the mom and pop's in the home built industry, just trying to stay a float. This market has a few things making it a hard sell, it's a canard, it's plans built and it's made of composites. I think most people think of the smell, the sanding, the dust and they would rather deal with a "normal" looking plane made of metal that has almost all the holes pre-pinched for them. Van's has a really good business model as well, which really helps sell more planes. Just my thinking out loud thoughts... If you want a Kit... go with the Aerocanard or build your Cozy IV fuselage and buy a complete Cozy IV wing kit (canard + wings + winglet (installed) with controls installed and balance) for $15,000, a molded main spar (main wings and spar are predrilled) for $2,500 and their strakes for $2,500 and you are well on your way. Considering that building the entire airframe of a Cozy IV nowadays is about 20K (as I was told). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super-eze Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 buy a complete Cozy IV wing kit (canard + wings + winglet (installed) with controls installed and balance) for $15,000, a molded main spar (main wings and spar are predrilled) for $2,500 and their strakes for $2,500 and you are well on your way. Who sells the Cozy wing kit? What is the cost to build the Long EZ today as per plans?? Quote Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super-eze Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 So I was waiting at the doctors office so I could have my head examined and came across this neat not so little aircraft. And yes it has a tube frame under composite shell. Here is a link to one of the few sites that have decent photos. http://www.fibertechcomposites.com/gallery.php Quote Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLKnolla Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Who sells the Cozy wing kit? What is the cost to build the Long EZ today as per plans?? Keith, I have a spreadsheet for budgeting a build-up using the Open-EZ plans, can't put my finger on it right now but I think it worked out to about $6K in raw materials from AS&S. There is a guy here on the forum who does CNC hot wire cores that only add about $1-2K total but make a much faster build. All up with engine and avionics is about $30-45K depending on equipment and engine selection. As far as metal tube frame with non-structural aerodynamic skins think all the Mooneys, Glastar and Sportsman, Titan T-51, Bellanca Lightning (fastest piston prop GA plane on the planet at one time), the beautiful Lionheart Staggerwing and a few others - it has been done before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynn Erickson Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Keith, I have a spreadsheet for budgeting a build-up using the Open-EZ plans, can't put my finger on it right now but I think it worked out to about $6K in raw materials from AS&S. There is a guy here on the forum who does CNC hot wire cores that only add about $1-2K total but make a much faster build. All up with engine and avionics is about $30-45K depending on equipment and engine selection. As far as metal tube frame with non-structural aerodynamic skins think all the Mooneys, Glastar and Sportsman, Titan T-51, Bellanca Lightning (fastest piston prop GA plane on the planet at one time), the beautiful Lionheart Staggerwing and a few others - it has been done before. there is a big misconception with the time saved by buying the cores already cut. the templets take a day to cut out. one day to build the not wire tool and one day to cut out all the cores. so the three days saved cost you a lot. the wings are the easiest and fastest part of the project. Quote Evolultion Eze RG -a two place side by side-200 Knots on 200 HP. A&P / pilot for over 30 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAF_Zoom Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Who sells the Cozy wing kit? What is the cost to build the Long EZ today as per plans?? Aerocad........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMann Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 What is the cost to build the Long EZ today as per plans?? All of the chapter kits (and the prices) are listed on the Wicks site. Are you familiar with Wick's and Aircraft Spruce & Specialty? Also .... a prefabicated fuselage shell w/bulkheads will outsell a tube frame construction fuselage (which still needs to be covered) due to both time and weight saved. This construction technique was considered to be a significant advance over tube frame construction ....... 30+ years ago. You'll get to that chapter eventually. Quote T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18 Velocity/RG N951TM Mann's Airplane Factory We add rocket's to everything! 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Kriley Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 there is a big misconception with the time saved by buying the cores already cut. the templets take a day to cut out. one day to build the not wire tool and one day to cut out all the cores. so the three days saved cost you a lot. the wings are the easiest and fastest part of the project. For someone with prior skills, that may be true. But you left out the time and money to build the hot wire tool, for one thing. And the fact that you need TWO people to do the cutting. I bought the cores and am very glad I did. The way I work, it saved me WEEKS. The idea of cutting all that foam, with the likelyhood that I'd mess up at least one part and have to order replacement foam and do it over again, and the effort of cutting a second set of parts backwards...and the skills needed to get the shape just right with no twist... Not for me. I bought the CNC cut parts, checked them against the plans, and started assembly. No time spent sanding the wire marks - there were none. No worries as to the shape or making a mistake in aligning a template... I'd say it was a very good investment! Quote Phil Kriley Cozy #1460 Chapter 13 - nose Right wing done - working on right winglet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCPJCP Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Super-eze: The entire tail cone of the fibertechcomposites design is glass, tube frame is only structure between wheels-engine-wing. On a Rutan canard design, these all come together at a single point (the firewall). While a "Prescott Pusher" is prime example of a commercially unsuccessful tube frame / glass skin design. (I'm not trying to discourage you, but rather give guidance based upon past failures.) What would be the greatest contribution to the Rutan Canard community is a (public domain) accurate solid model of a Long-EZ, including all of the updates and corrections from the Canard Pusher's. Model should include fiber plies / orientation and foam. From that model, effort could expand in various directions, by many contributors. 1) Studies into different composites (E-Glass / S-Glass / Kevlar / Carbon) 2) Studies into eliminating the styrofoam (assuming an approach using a mold) 3) Widened (E-Racer / Cozy) versions. 4) Retract landing gear (Drybread / Velocity) 5) Control systems (single sidestick / dual sidestick / centerstick / dualyoke) 6) Blended winglets 7) A better approach to the Strakes (easier to build / leak proof / fuel proof) It has been 30 years since the Long-EZ was designed. Since then, new materials and better design/analysis tools have been developed. It may be possible to reduce weight and the amount of $$$ fabric, by going to higher strength materials. But this can't be done blindly ! (One question I've yet to answer for myself is how many pounds of foam actually are in the aircraft !) Again, just thinking out loud. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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