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Its a bird its a plane its not a kit!


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Coming soon to this post a new concept in constructing an EZ or Cozy. Super fast build, Super strong, Upgradeable, use the parts you already have!

 

I will introduce it to this forum and hope I'm not burned in effigy

Are you sure you didn't mean to post this on the Cartoon Network site?

T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18

Velocity/RG N951TM

Mann's Airplane Factory

We add rocket's to everything!

4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done

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  • 2 weeks later...

In a nut shell (no not my head) this is what I perceive the problem and the solution to be.

 

I have been following the EZ class of canard aircraft since I first soloed in 1982. I would love to build one now but I can’t spend years in my garage making that happen. So it needs to be built faster. Usually faster means a kit and that just is not economically feasible for a tandem canard. So how does the EZ class canard aircraft survive? One option is the open-ez, but its still the same construction method and length of time. So in my little world an EZ that can be built faster and still have the same aerodynamics, and not be a kit, is the solution.

 

I have a concept that I would like to share with the forum. (Emphasis on CONCEPT) I am going to share this concept with the hope of vetting it out and perhaps moving forward with actual construction. So with out further adoo here are my thoughts.

 

1. I will not change the aerodynamics at all.

2. The dimensions may change slightly but not as to affect the aerodynamics.

3. It will be fast to build.

4. It will not be a kit but one or two major components that you must purchase.

5. The construction method of the wings, canard, and strakes will not change.

6. You can use all pre manufactured components that are on the market or build them your self per raf/open-ez plans.

 

The concept calls for a tube frame surrounded by a pre molded fuselage. I fully understand the benefits of the monocoque construction and there is no substitute. I am not attempting to show anyone that this concept is better that the original construction concept. But I hope to prove that its potential short comings (i.e. weight) can be overcome to become a viable alternative to the normal method of construction. This hybrid construction is at this time a CONCEPT and will obviously have to be properly engineered. What I hope to do here is to overcome any shortfalls in the design so that when it is handed over to an engineer it is a well thought out project.

 

I plan on building it here virtually and if it makes it to completion then it’s the real deal. So to start things off I will post a few drawings.

 

Thanks in advance for any participation you may provide.

Keith.

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I will work backwards for the first 4 images. The first image is of a shape that everyone knows, basically the same dimensions nothing radical. The strakes have the smooth curve mod. I begin to de-construct the airframe until I get to the controversial part and what this discussion will be about. The tube frame.

Keith.

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Getting to the point quickly. Why a tube frame? How will this be faster?

 

Ok... you’re ready to start your EZ project. (You will still need the TERF plans). You will get the plans for the tube frame (free) and construct the frame yourself. A second option would be to have the plans sent to a welder and have the frame constructed. A third option would be to call a recognized supplier of EZ and Cozy parts :rolleyes: and they will construct the frame for you.

 

Once the frame is constructed then you are simply bolting on parts. Everything that goes into an EZ (or Cozy) will bolt on. You can assemble the entire aircraft BEFORE you put it inside the fuselage. You will have direct access to everything… Wiring, instruments, controls, bearings, seats, fuel system, landing gear… you get the picture.

 

You can construct the airframe and its systems and run the engine all before you put it in the fuselage. You will build the wings, canard, CS spar, gear ECT as per plans. The fuselage will be three pre molded parts that may or may not be carbon fiber. I will construct the molds and use them to build the prototypes. After it is proven the molds will become community property some how some where. I am not looking for a profit in this venture just recoup expenses of the molds, which should be pretty low.

 

This is what I am going to attempt virtually right here. I know there are some issues that have to be overcome. #1 is weight. As a first step I will attempt to calculate the weight difference of the basic structure and post it ASAP.

 

Thanks for listening.

Keith.

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Getting to the point quickly. Why a tube frame? How will this be faster?

 

Ok... you’re ready to start your EZ project. (You will still need the TERF plans). You will get the plans for the tube frame (free) and construct the frame yourself. A second option would be to have the plans sent to a welder and have the frame constructed. A third option would be to call a recognized supplier of EZ and Cozy parts :rolleyes: and they will construct the frame for you.

 

Once the frame is constructed then you are simply bolting on parts. Everything that goes into an EZ (or Cozy) will bolt on. You can assemble the entire aircraft BEFORE you put it inside the fuselage. You will have direct access to everything… Wiring, instruments, controls, bearings, seats, fuel system, landing gear… you get the picture.

 

You can construct the airframe and its systems and run the engine all before you put it in the fuselage. You will build the wings, canard, CS spar, gear ECT as per plans. The fuselage will be three pre molded parts that may or may not be carbon fiber. I will construct the molds and use them to build the prototypes. After it is proven the molds will become community property some how some where. I am not looking for a profit in this venture just recoup expenses of the molds, which should be pretty low.

 

This is what I am going to attempt virtually right here. I know there are some issues that have to be overcome. #1 is weight. As a first step I will attempt to calculate the weight difference of the basic structure and post it ASAP.

 

Thanks for listening.

I think, you think that the fuselage is what makes it take so long to build one of the composite ez designs. there is no one thing that makes the project take longer that can be constructed in a different manner that will make the time commitment change very much. people do get the feeling that we are working on the fuselage for a long time because it is the item that you start on first, therefor we live with it for the longest period of time. you still have to build all the other components whether you build them first or second has no bearing on the time it takes. anything that is built into the plane that is a change to the plans adds time to the project. what you are suggesting can be done faster will not be fast at all. maybe it can be done in few days less but it won't be months or years less and any time you save will be added back on to the project in engineering time, flight testing and head scratching time, and rework time to fix what the computer said would work, two fold, probably three fold. if there where molded parts for the fuselage available it might save some days, but there is not. in the time it will take to build a plug, molds, and a part for the fuselage you could have built a complete fuselage to the plans. anyone that has built as many aircraft and car projects that I have will tell you the same thing, I'm sure of that. if you want to build the project in a different way just because you want to , thats great, but build it a different way because you think you will save time, trust me it won't. If you are only looking to build one EZ for yourself the fastest way is to put down the computer, get the plans and start building. virtual building and real building use the same amount time but I have always preferred to fly the real thing and I'm sure you do too.

Evolultion Eze RG -a two place side by side-200 Knots on 200 HP. A&P / pilot for over 30 years

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Having nearly finnished my fuselage, I think I would have to agree with Lynn. The majority of my time building has been on the little details like landing gear attachment, nose gear construction, canopy installation etc.

 

The big parts like the fuselage sides and bottoms take a couple of weeks perhaps to layup and assemble.

 

I cannot imagine that constructing a tubular frame and then attaching a composite or fiberglass/carbon skin to that structure would save time over the plans method.

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As a fresh composite builder working on the tub I must say that starting on complex things as the canard, wings etc. would be a bad idea. I was tempted to buy a finished tub but even though I would save some hours I would miss the most important part - the education process that goes into the building. I can afford to screw up some bulkheads and remake them, that is a part of the learning. I would not ever start directly on the canard or wings, without any experience.

 

In my opinion, the way the plans guides me through the building process, it makes me more and more confident in my scills, as I can see that the parts get better and better. "You have to learn to crawl before you can walk".

Erlend Moen
Norway
Cozy MK IV #1556 - Chapter 16
http://cozy.ljosnes.no

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Super-Eze,

Attempting to lower construction times is a great idea! Your plans to build a super-fast built plane is a great thought, and keep up the innovative thinking. I need to preface my response because I have not built any full-scale aircraft before. I have read quite a lot of material the corroborates the stories told by others... It's the little things that take the most time, including the finishing work. That's where kit manufacturers add value (And thus price) because they make the pre-fab parts that make the finishing work much easier. So, if you want to continue down the path of making a fast-built kit, I would suggest focusing more on how to integrate some of the more complicated tasks into your tube structure. What the structure would allow you to do is provide a solid platform for locating plates that attach all the wiring, and other gizmos and who-ha. Also, think about providing wiring harnesses and cable assemblies. And ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, think of maintenance. How can I make this kit to allow better access than was available before (And what does that do to structural integrity, etc...) Good luck, and keep at it!

 

-Chris

Chris Zupp

~Aircraft Designer~

Preliminary Design Sequence I: Project Endeavour

Aeronautical/Mechanical Engineer

Private Pilot

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All great comments, (The concept is the pasta and the forum is the wall.

), Thank you.

 

One comment stands out. From MFRYER regarding the amount of time building has been on the little details like landing gear attachment, nose gear construction, canopy installation etc.

 

Can this scenario lessen the amount of time or effort in regards to the finer details? I think so. For example I will mount the control system onto the frame. In this virtual world lets say I purchased the control system from the CG website and it was a bolt on part. I will have to mount the instrument panel as well as it supports the Torque tube bearing.

 

Not getting the practice on the smaller structures is also a good point. Although this is not a kit theory what is the scenario with some of the kits like the Velocity ect… Are there enough small composite structures to train on?

Keith.

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I think you are still missing the point in terms of build time. The work actually goes pretty fast when you actually follow the plans. No real thinking to do---other than studying the plans to understand what they are saying---you just check the items off as you go. When I changed my Longez from updraft to downdraft cooling, mounted the master cylinders up front, hung a bigger motor on, etc----now I was deviating from the plans. Sometimes seemingly trivial items would occupy untold amounts of time. I remember for example that the larger engine required a push pull throttle cable. I had to research what kind of throttle cable I needed, how to modify my brock throttle quadrant for push pull, what kind of connectors actually need to go on the throttle cable (there are quite a few), how to attach it to an assymbly that hooks to the carb (modified a Vans carb/cable mount), and how and where to penetrate the firewall. Even penetrating the firewall turned out to be a big deal. I originally fed the cable where I wanted it to go but found that the bends the cable was trying to do made the cable too stiff to operate. After trial and error---and making swiss cheese of the firewall, I figured out another approach. Take a short piece of throttle cable, hook it to the carb and the Vans "retainer" and see where the cable wants to go thru the firewall. Once I learned that lesson, things went great. But there was an incredible amount of time spent on the computer researching, digging through CPs, and time spent underneath my aircraft staring at it.

 

Following the plans----ALL of that headscratching vaporizes.

 

If you want to build fast---follow the plans---or follow someone elses well documented changes.

 

In terms of people with the really long build times----I once mentioned to a longez builder that there was another guy on the field who had been building his Longez for 20 years. He looked at me, smiled, and said, "No he hasn't---sounds like he has been doing a lot of things other than building his longez for 20 years."

 

One last item on aircraft finish. Some people spend a long time trying to get the finish correct and smooth. Sanding with the long boards will make it go fast and look good. I think Wayne has some stuff on his site that talks about finishing a canard. There are some EZs out there that look to have been hand sanded (no long boards) and look real rough.

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I dont think you are hearing these guys posts, or just ignoring them. They are building and understand the process. Building a rag frame longeze just because you have learned how to operate CAD isn't going anywhere. You don't even know if the framework is structurally adequate...and will probably never create it physically. What are you doing?:confused:

Self confessed Wingnut.

Now think about it...wouldn't you rather LIVE your life, rather than watch someone else's, on Reality T.V.?

Get up off that couch!!! =)

 

Progress; Fuselage on all three, with outside and inside nearly complete. 8 inch extended nose. FHC done. Canard finished. ERacer wings done with blended winglets. IO540 starting rebuild. Mounting Spar. Starting strake ribs.

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Super-eze, I bet you've been working on this for a while. Did you do any structural calcs, or is this just a proof of concept? If it is, I think it's decetly thought out. Edge has a point about the structural calculations, but from looking at what you have already I'd say the proportions look about right. I can't say for certain because I haven't analyzed it myself, but the truss-system looks plausible at least :). Don't fear posting here about your innovations. A lot of folks here worry about insurance premiums going up. While I can understand their worries about people putting out paper ideas, and believe me there are a great deal of folks out there (Including myself) that are trying to innovate and design and collaborate. Don't let anyone take you down or your ideas. Listen, or don't listen to advice, that's your call but don't stop asking questions. And definitely do those structural calculations if you haven't done so, they'll keep you safe! And if you don't know how, consult E.F. Bruhn's Book, it's THE book on aircraft structural analysis, including composite sandwich analysis. Good luck! :-D

 

-Chris

Chris Zupp

~Aircraft Designer~

Preliminary Design Sequence I: Project Endeavour

Aeronautical/Mechanical Engineer

Private Pilot

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Sure---I think you can build it. In a kit form, will it be faster to build for those following your plans?---sure, maybe. Will your prototype be faster to build than a plans built longez---no way. In the time you took to ponder about these postings, I would have already had all the bulkheads done and much of the tub complete.

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Super-eze,

 

It's always interesting to think outside the box from time to time, makes life a lot more fun and it helps to keep those creative juices flowing. Since you're still in the "concept" stage here's my thought. I think you have one foot in the box and one outside, step completely out of the box and make this a canard that meets the LSA rules. Looks like you have a good start with the frame anyway. There's already a couple of kit manufacturers that supply kits/parts for the fast planes (not saying this couldn't do that as well, possibly), the next step for those folks, myself included, (hopefully several years down the road) is LSA. I believe Nat followed that path. No reason a canard can't fit the LSA rules and be a good looking design. There's a lot of really nice looking LSA aircraft out there, but no canards. I'm not saying that a LongEZ or VariEze can be made to work as an LSA, however, you're going to need to do a lot of new engineering anyway, make it a really new and fresh design. We seem to keep remodeling the same old house, let's build a new beach house for the old folks. :)

Best regards,

 

Bruce Sturgill

http://www.pursuitofflight.com

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