New and looking to start my first Homebuilt.

[Lauren Lynch]

Hello all, 

My name is Lauren Lynch. My Home base is Charlotte, NC. I have been in and around aviation all my life with my father being a huge influence with my love of aviation. 
I'm looking to start a Canard based Homebuilt. I am doing a TON of research and weighing my options before i spend a dime on a kit or plans base aircraft build. 
I've narrowed down my selection between Open-Ez, Cozy-IV and the Velocity.  Velocity seems like good option for a first-time builder as it is an established Kit based Canard aircraft. However, with a $40k Price point with no Sub kit options (Like RV's) seems like a heavy lift financially for me for just an airframe. 

The other two options (as we know) are plans based builds with no kits with aircraft spruce & specialty co providing Per Section BoM chunks you may purchase if you like the price for the Covy IV. With me being a brand-new homebuilder, I feel like a Plans-built options is the deep end for me. Additionally, I do not feel comfy on how revisions are handled to the plans. With a newsletter containing the changes to the plans and with the builder responsible to updating their plans instead of the changes being compiled into clear revisions and provided to the community scares me. The thought of me missing a measurement correction from the newsletter and finding out later into the build that a bulkhead that has been glassed in place does not have enough material to proceed, is extremely concerning. 

I see there is a good community here. I'm rather new and still need to poke around the site but it seems like a lot of posts here concerning Building support are rather old. I might be wrong, but I'm concerned there are not as many people around willing to answer stupid questions from a newbie like me. 

I started this thread to gauge the support and gather suggestions on what direction I should take with what Aircraft I should build for my first Homebuilt.

Lastly, I love the Burt Rutan pusher canard-based design. I feel like an airplane based on his design would provide more drive and enthusiasm to push me to build completion then with a RV based Kit Plane. 

Thanks for your time and I appreciate you entertaining my naivety!

Lauren

[Kent Ashton]

 I will PM you but my Cozy IV is in Salisbury and there is one in Lincolnton.  There are also Velocities in the area.  What is your "mission", as they say?  Want to take long trips?  How many people?  Willing to give up soft-fields and a lot of short-field operations?  Want to be involved in the social scene?  (There are many RVs in this area--a very social crowd).

I would not fret about problems with the Cozy plans.  The Long-ez (Open-ez) is also a good option.  A bit cheaper and faster to build, free plans, but there are many mods to be considered but really, it's fun and not a problem.  See this post   https://www.canardzone.com/forums/topic/18661-kents-long-ez-project/?do=findComment&comment=82162

 

[jridge]

Lauren-

I had planned to build a Long EZ, but came across a Long EZ that sat in a hangar unflown for many years.  I've got a bit of restoring/updating to get the airplane flying again, but will save alot of time when compared to starting from plans.

It makes me sad seeing these airplanes sitting and not flying, or worse yet, seeing one sitting outside, decaying away to the elements.  So it will be great to get it back up in the air.  You might consider this option, but make sure to have a good pre-buy done by someone who knows canard aircraft.

Jeff

[Lauren Lynch]

@Kent Ashton

Thank you for the PM! It's nice to see a local who is still active and enjoy these planes. I'm close to Huntersville, right in the middle of both of your EZ's FBO Homes. 

My mission is a long-distance Economy Cruiser (with Oxygen as needed). Thinking 2 maybe 3 people for long haul... 4 people for pattern rides or short EAA hops. 
As for as for soft and short Fields, well, let's just say I don't know of any STOL equipped Canard. The right tool for the right job as they say.
I'm not a big social person. Don't much like crowds (I know, not very conducive to the pilot community); however, I'm willing to show up for some free EAA pancakes.

I was able to Get Duane from Velocity via email and had a back and forth about the Kit. He also explained why it's not sold as Sub Kits. It seems that Financing is the main way I'm going to be able to get my hands on that Airframe with an FAR 21.191. I am also seeing the merit of starting out with the shorter build time of the Open-Ez but with a tandem cockpit, I feel like I might have some difficulty with long flights in such a cramped cockpit. Also, not sure how instructed flight would work in a tandem cockpit like that. It's looking more and more like the CozyIV might be a good compromise between both ends. 

With that said, I'm a bit of an antisocial. I'll give you a txt massage this weekend so you can add me to your contacts. Would love to pick your brain over the phone instead of fourm posting back and forth. 

@jridge

It seems Burt Rutan had people building the Ez Left and Right in the 80s with almost everyone enjoying Aviation back then. It seems that Aviation has shrunken down to a few people who love Flying and the people who are well off. (As they say, to make a $1m in aviation, start out with $1B) I wish GA was more accessible to more people these days, unfortunately it is not the case. 

The Idea has crossed my mind, if there was an Adopt-an-Ez organization, I would stop in for a visit. My concern with this is the higher Initial Cost and the possibility of larger Operational cost (No FAR 21.191 and composite repairs). Also, with composite homebuilt aircraft, you truly do not know what you are buying. Unlike with a Metal plane where you can pop some rivets and take a look at the airframe, composites are not like that. With it being a homebuilt, there is no consistent quality control like with Certified aircraft (but this is true with most Experimental builds).

While poking around and learning, found a YouTube Video of Mr Burt Rutan himself explaining the value of Composites.
Building Rutan Composites Build Your Own Aircraft - YouTube

Thanks for your time! 

Lauren

Edited February 25, 2022 by Lauren Lynch

[jridge]

Keep us informed of where you're headed.

Jeff

[Marc Zeitlin]

23 hours ago, Lauren Lynch said:

The Idea has crossed my mind, if there was an Adopt-an-Ez organization, I would stop in for a visit. My concern with this is the higher Initial Cost and the possibility of larger Operational cost (No FAR 21.191 and composite repairs). Also, with composite homebuilt aircraft, you truly do not know what you are buying. Unlike with a Metal plane where you can pop some rivets and take a look at the airframe, composites are not like that.

a) I have no idea what you're trying to say with your second sentence - buying a canard aircraft, even now when prices have risen, is hardly more expensive than building one - sometimes still less. What your reference to 21.191 means in the context of buying a flying canard aircraft is unclear - all the rules for experimentals still apply - the only difference between an experimental amateur built aircraft that you bought and one that you built is that you need to hire an A&P (or the person with the Repairmans Certificate) to perform the yearly Condition Inspection). Other than that, you (or anyone else you choose) can do any  repairs or modifications to the plane.

b) Your statement about "truly do not know what you are buying" is completely incorrect. Knowledgeable examiners can determine the state of a composite aircraft to essentially the same extent as with metal aircraft. On RV's, there are numerous critical structural areas that are closed out, invisible, and unexaminable. No different than the internal structure of a composite aircraft.

If you're interested in COZYs, go sit in one and get a flight in one. Then either build one or purchase one - there are numerous project planes available that would give you substantial building experience as well as a quicker path to flight. Turnkey COZY MKIV's are few and far between.

[Lauren Lynch]

@Marc Zeitlin

Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts. I am new, I'm here to learn and become informed while meeting new people along the way. Thank you for putting up with my naive point of view. After reflecting on my post, I would have to agree with you on your points. 

If I may ask, how much is an A&P for an experimental annual? Am I allowed to make modification to the plane even if I do not build 51% of it? What are the advantages of buying a pre-built experimental instead of certified from a cost of ownership standpoint? Do you know of any on the market for sale? I looked in Controller and Trad-a-plane and don't see much for canard-based planes.  Lots of question just off the top of my head... 

After reading some aviation news, it seems there has been a rush of people into the General Aviation world. Seems like a lot of people want to go flying after being cooped up; social isolated because of COVID. So, I guess I have some competition/friends who have the same idea and dreams that I do. 😃 

After thinking about it. If I were to build a personal plane, I would most likely go with a Cozy Mk IV. I like the side-by-side seating and also the option to carry 4 people (depending on weight). Also, i like having the option that Spruce have Parts already sourced as a Safety-net should I get lost in the plans. However, I am honestly considering just trying to find an already built Cozy that I can take in and take care of. But again, I have a lot of questions with buying noncertified that I need to learn and understand. 

Again, time is something that can never be replaced. Thank you for spending some of it reading my comments/questions and thank for spending even more of it to respond. 😇

Edited February 27, 2022 by Lauren Lynch

[Kent Ashton]

Marc can better address the cost of an experimental annual (it is actually called a "condition inspection"--i.e. in a safe condition for flight).   I'd guess $500-1000 here in the S.E.  Read about owning an Exp at www.eaa.org     https://inspire.eaa.org/2019/05/16/be-your-own-mechanic-the-secondhand-homebuilt-aircraft-owners-guide-to-maintenance/

I think you could reasonable expect to travel with two normal size adults and two kids but without any/much baggage.  IMO, the Cozy IV is a three-person airplane or a good two person plus lots of bags airplane.   Marc keeps a list of Cozys for sale.  There is one flying and one project on Barnstormers at the moment.

[A Bruce Hughes]

Lauren:   There is an organization called "Canard Owners and Builders Association".   They publish a newsletter quarterly and a membership listing annually.   They also have a website: "www.canardowners.com    .   Currently the membership fee is $39/year for a glossy, colored publication.    I suggest that you check into the website and see if there is a "state Representative" for North Carolina or adjacent state.    He will be able to give you a  lot of help: they know builders in your area that faced the same questions years ago. Probably you can get a ride in a Cozy IV, possibly in a Cozy 3, Velocity, Eracer, Longeze, Varieze, Aerocanard, .   There are  many things to consider.   In my case, I was too old and did not have many hours; I should have bought one of the Cozy 3s that was already flying.

 

BTW   IF you are still considering a Cozy and fly it with 2 people or4 and put your 300 pound mother-in-law in the front seat or the back seat, you had better thoroughly understand Cg.   

[Voidhawk9]

Hi Lauren,

As someone on their first homebuilt, I don't see any issue building from plans - IF that is what you want to do. For me, it allows to me make some, uh, adaptions to the design that would be very difficult with a kit.
Agree Cozy IV is a good way to go for greatest flexibility. But a Long is a bit cheaper to build and operate (slightly smaller, can go Cozy fast on a slightly lower fuel flow).

Support is definitely no issue. Unfortunately most of it is still stuck in e-mail groups, but you can read it in the mailing list feeds on this forum without signing up.

Buying a partial project is a great way to get started at a big discount (less than materials plus free labour!). Look at the 'Sales I've seen' thread on this site, and consider the partially done projects as 'kits'!

Check out RAFE as well: https://www.rutanaircraftflyingexperience.org/

 

[Marc Zeitlin]

On 2/27/2022 at 12:51 PM, Lauren Lynch said:

If I may ask, how much is an A&P for an experimental annual? Am I allowed to make modification to the plane even if I do not build 51% of it? What are the advantages of buying a pre-built experimental instead of certified from a cost of ownership standpoint? Do you know of any on the market for sale? I looked in Controller and Trad-a-plane and don't see much for canard-based planes. 

I charge $1,250 for a canard CI. You can get them for less, but you get what you pay for. Others have pointed you to the rules for E-AB aircraft - you (or anyone on the face of the earth, including your grandmother's dog) can do anything you want to the airplane, whether you (or they) built it or not. The ONLY thing you need an A&P (or the Repairmans Certificate holder) for is to sign off the Condition Inspection.

Cost of ownership for an equivalent performance aircraft will be a lot lower for an E-AB, since the purchase price and carrying costs will be a lot lower. Or for equivalent $$$, you get far more performance. Barnstomers will usually have more listings than TAP or Controller, but it's good to look everywhere. COZY MKIV's (good ones) are few and far between - there's one on the market now with a bunch of folks chasing it. There are a number of project planes - some I would touch, others I wouldn't go near.

[Lauren Lynch]

@A Bruce Hughes
I took your advice and sent $25 for a Membership to canardowners.com (The digital only was $25 for a year) 
I'll start Snooping around their website and see what I can Learn. I'm still in the find out what I'm getting myself into stage 😃

@Voidhawk9
I like your idea of looking for a in progress build instead of starting off from the start. I am still concerned about workmanship and knowing what I'm getting as I'm still learning about composites and proper construction methods. However, if @Kent Ashton is willing (once we get to know one another) I guess I could ask him to tag along to make sure I'm not getting a lemon. (I still owe you a txt/call Kent, Work has me super busy last few weeks)

@Marc Zeitlin
I had no clue you were a A&P 😃 Thanks for taking some of your time and posting your answers to my questions. From the sounds of it Certified AC are not the way to go anymore, and the new way for most of us is a E-AB or SLA. I was thinking about buying some ASA books on Composites and General A&P; I.E. "A Comprehensive Guide to Composites " and "Aviation Maintenance Technician Handbook (Airframe & Powerplant)" to learn more about what i would be doing as an E-AB builder. Would you recommend them or is it a little overboard? 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Lauren Lynch

[Marc Zeitlin]

9 hours ago, Lauren Lynch said:

From the sounds of it Certified AC are not the way to go anymore, and the new way for most of us is a E-AB or SLA. I was thinking about buying some ASA books on Composites and General A&P; I.E. "A Comprehensive Guide to Composites " and "Aviation Maintenance Technician Handbook (Airframe & Powerplant)" to learn more about what i would be doing as an E-AB builder. Would you recommend them or is it a little overboard? 

E-AB aircraft are not for everyone. If you just want to get in a plane and fly, and have someone else worry about maintenance, etc., then a TC'd plane is far more appropriate. Particularly with plans built aircraft, EVERY PLANE IS DIFFERENT, so you need to be willing to spend a lot of time learning about the details and idiosyncrasies of YOUR plane. Also expect (given how much people fly, or don't, per year - maybe 30 - 50 hours for most E-AB owners) to spend an hour on maintenance for every hour in the air. Fly more and the ratio goes down. But it's NOT a car.

The AMT handbook is decent, as is AC43.13-1B, upon which the AMT handbook is based. I wouldn't bother with the composites book - just read the COZY plans (or Long-EZ, or Open-EZ - available for free online). It'll have everything you need to know about how these planes are built.

[Lauren Lynch]

@Marc Zeitlin
I was able to get a copy of the AC43.13-1B and am skimming through it, reading the sections that could help me starting out and taking mental notes on what sections has what information. 

I have read through most of the OpenEz's manufacturing Manual. I had a question regarding the fuselage Longeron and the Bulkheads. Is it posable to widen them a little without compromising the integrity of the load bearing frame of the aircraft? I know with the Cozy IV you build in a slight Curvature to side frames where the EZ are straight. I want to give myself a little shoulder room and a little more room on the Instrument panel. I was thinking maybe 2-4 inches (1-2 inches per side on the bulkheads). 

With that aside, I was looking at using a UL Power 520 as the power plant if I do build a Long-Ez from plans. Any thoughts on that ECU/FADEC style engine on an EZ? 

Thanks for your time. I'm still reading and researching. aryjglantz.com has been an amazing starting point for me. Thank you Ary (if you are reading this) 

Edited March 5, 2022 by Lauren Lynch

[Voidhawk9]

UL Power 520 powered Long-Ez

 

 

[Kent Ashton]

1 hour ago, Lauren Lynch said:

I want to give myself a little shoulder room and a little more room on the Instrument panel. I was thinking maybe 2-4 inches (1-2 inches per side on the bulkheads).

I wouldn't think it would be necessary.  Some quite large people fly EZs.  You can also build your armrests to allow more room at the hips (pics).  I also ordered a somewhat larger canopy but in the end, I don't think I needed it.  It was just a bigger drag-shape.

[Lauren Lynch]

@Voidhawk9

I ran across his Build Log. The build that he did is exactly what i was thinking of making. I plan to reach out to him this weekend to pick his brain (if he has time) 

@Kent Ashton

Thank you for your time this weekend with our phone call. Your wisdom and experiences helped a lot with getting a feel of the Aircraft and putting perspective my own expectations.
Also, thank you for sharing these pics. I see what you are talking about regarding the size. I don't think I need to fret over the cockpit width like I was now that i see it. Correct me if I'm wrong but the seat supports your legs by having your rear further into the seat, with the curve up supporting your tights up to below the knee. If i have some hip issues i think i can contour the armrests as needed. 

[Kent Ashton]

4 hours ago, Lauren Lynch said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but the seat supports your legs by having your rear further into the seat, with the curve up supporting your tights up to below the knee. If i have some hip issues i think i can contour the armrests as needed. 

Yes, the seats are moderately comfortable even with no foam.  You will notice that I scalloped-out the side foam where the forearms hit.  That was like adding 1.5" to the cockpit width.

[zolotiyeruki]

19 minutes ago, Kent Ashton said:

You will notice that I scalloped-out the side foam where the forearms hit.  That was like adding 1.5" to the cockpit width.

How far could you take that without compromising the fuselage structure?

[Kent Ashton]

1 hour ago, zolotiyeruki said:

How far could you take that without compromising the fuselage structure?

Lots of people have cut windows in about the same area so . . .