Wicks & A.S. Chapter/section kits

[David Clifford]

Wasn't this whole thread started by the question of substituting similar weaves by possibly different manufacturers, or unknown manufacturers and the suitability of that substitution. Unfortunately it seems to have degenerated into a battle, of sorts, with little to substantiate either side. I suppose we have to go through these things occasionally to cleanse the palate, as it were.

 

I do have a question, however and that is What was 3M doing with fabric that was designed, etc by Burt Rutan, or was it a similar weave by another manufacturer? There is a lot we don't know.

 

It is probably better to use the material specified until independent testers prove alternate materials better or worse, and better or worse for the structures that we are building. As it stands, the specified material works and has, as far as we know, never let a -Z down.

My understanding is that the glass we use for the Rutan composites were/are manufactured by Hexel according to Rutan specifications. I don't want to sound like a broken record but it's worth bringing out again because it is factual based on my own experiance. We had to trash TWO(2) nearly completed canards because dust insisted on using an unapproved source for the glass order . It supposedly was manufactured by Hexel and was the Rutan weave called for in the plans. I have to admit,,,it looked like the real deal. But it would not conform to the curve on the leading edges,,,no matter what we tried to do to hold it in place!! The canards cured in a state of distress that we ended up chopping them up and starting over. Weight wise the fabrics were the same and you could not see any difference by looking close with the naked eye. It was only upon magnification and picking and counting threads could the difference's be found. Even after that fiasco he can't admit that it was a bad idea and continues to preach that you can use ANY glass and as many plies as needed so long as the weight comes out the same, piecing together scraps from the garbage as if we are building paper machai airplane piniottas! Using non-approved materials and following hearsay advice can be a deadly combination.

[Aiman]

Wow... thanks, David, for shedding light on that VERY critical subject. I will wind up getting my glass from an approved supplier per the plans specs instead of looking for that 'smokin hot deal'. Period.

 

If it sounds too good to be true......

[Neverquit]

I believe that he (Nat) was alluding to the possibility that he did not "buy" the materials he used to build the Cozy 111,,,,,,,that the materials were "salvaged" from the scrap bin at the place he worked, 3M. Most companies refere to it as "shrinkage",,,,and I am not talking about size here! Anyone who has EVER worked at any kind of a shop or factory knows exactly what I am talking about. Dust interperated that to mean you can use any glass available so long as the weave and weights add up. That is pure nonsence.

Whew! Dave said it best. Well done.

 

By the way, Nat enjoys a good phone conversation about airplanes if you can catch him sitting down for a moment.

On a lighter note... you can use your "Rutan approved" scrap pieces as specified in the plans. Especially all those triangle ends. Keep em' all. I've used thousands. Overlap them for BID and butting them together with parallel threads for UNI. With multiple plies put the scraps in between the plies to keep them in place.

[Edge 513]

Thanks Greg. 'Nother great point about keeping/ using your "ends'', as I call them, and where to use them.

New guys- keep those ends, there will be lots of parts to make that they can go into. Put them in a cardboard box to keep them clean.

Heres a picture of my plenum box- after this pic lots of BID "ends" will go into the 'glassing of it. Use the 'ends and save full size BID roll cuts on non-structural fabs.

[David Clifford]

Whew! Dave said it best. Well done.

 

By the way, Nat enjoys a good phone conversation about airplanes if you can catch him sitting down for a moment.

On a lighter note... you can use your "Rutan approved" scrap pieces as specified in the plans. Especially all those triangle ends. Keep em' all. I've used thousands. Overlap them for BID and butting them together with parallel threads for UNI. With multiple plies put the scraps in between the plies to keep them in place.

We kept any scrap pieces larger than 6" triangular and ended up using most of it throughout the bid. VERY little ended up in the trash can. It is surprising how many times I found myself reaching into the scrap box for that "just the right size" piece needed,,,,,and found it!! By the way Edge 513,,,,,that is some REALLY nice looking work in your photo!!

[Edge 513]

Thanks. I bought Waiters blower and oil cooler. I figured since it worked extremely well [see his website writeup] and I had plenty of room in my nose...it was a logical idea. He had retired it to put his hydraulic pump in its place and go with an under seat oil heater. The rest of the system, plenum, cable actuator, 2"x 29" hose run to the plans heat duct[to head to an outlet at the rear seats] and 1-1/2"x9" up to a small closeable defroster vent is all up to me. No problemo.

Some might say why go to this trouble.

Simple.

I have a wife that is ALWAYS cold. She thinks out side is just starting to get warm at 85 degrees.

Plus, having a very good heater is not a bad thing.

[Aiman]

I checked out his writeup about the install and oil heat system (which I figure you are referring to). I think its an awesome idea. I only have one concern, which he actually commented on in the writeup about his own install. Running oil lines up to the front will cause you to keep about a quart of oil in the system at every oil change. I would prefer if there were some way to get all the oil out of the system 100%, every time.

 

I am thinking of doing something along the same line, except with coolant. You can run a smaller diameter insulated hardline up front, use a smaller, purpose designed 'heater core' and possibly get the same results. Actually, with coolant, since it is so flexible to work with (less viscosity than oil, so pumping it all over the airplane isn't as big a deal) you could theoretically have separate heating units for the PIC and RIO (back seat pass).

[dust]

I don't miss this crap at all - you read what you want to read and don't read what is said.

 

I have said it many times before - one last time

 

Nat said to me

 

I built the cozy from the scrap bins at 3m, go buy other fabric if you like and just use bid and uni where called out for.

 

if you cannot find 8 oz weights then add up the weights, i believe his example was 2 layers of 4 oz = 1 layer of 8 oz, that is what I did, I being Nat on the cozy 3.

 

As far as the uni that i bought in the beginning - it is really good and really bad stuff. I love it and Hate it.

 

If you use it where there are flats or gentle curves - it is fantastic, fibers are always straight. Lays down near perfect every time.

 

If you try to use it on joggles and tight radius's - it is crap and it will ruin your day and your part.

 

I use it on every part that i can as it is very easy to work with, if it takes the shape easily. I prefer having two styles of uni as the stiff one is so easy to make a near perfect part.

 

Call Nat - check it out - he misses the builder calls, or at least that is what he tells me.

 

Now you are free to ignore what i wrote and make up what i have said - enjoy

[satch]

I sooooooo thought we were done with this .... <sigh/>

[Edge 513]

Aiman. Since NIck U, Vance A. Chris E. [and probably many others] have this or a similar oil heat set-up, maybe when you are ready, you could start asking them about this. Theres a LOT of oil in a Lycoming, so I have not been fretting over that undrainable amount.

I have a question about a underside NACA scoop, but since this thread is supposed to be on materials, I post it there.

[Aiman]

Edge,

 

The thread originally wasn't about scraps. I just wanted to see if I could just save a tiny bit of effort by ordering cozy chapter/section materials from spruce or wicks for building my OpenEZ. Then it morphed into... scraps, other fiberglass sources, cabin heat, formerly respected members of the canard community etc.

 

PS: I'm not stuffing a Lycosaurus in the back of my plane, so I want to explore other heating alternatives. It will most likely be a Subaru conversion. I'm still not comfortable about the EGT issues with turbocharged rotaries to want to use one. I have plenty of 'streetracer' buddies who have turbo'ed RX-7's who are having almost endless issues. And these guys are tuning their cars on chassis dynamometers, with experienced rotary tuners. I'm sure i'll earn the wrath of the cozygirrrls for those comments.. but.. It will be me and my 'family' in back... so... I want to be 100% confident with what keeps the plane from gliding to a crash site.

[Edge 513]

Edge,

 

I'm sure i'll earn the wrath of the cozygirrrls for those comments.. but.. It will be me and my 'family' in back... so... I want to be 100% confident with what keeps the plane from gliding to a crash site.

Theres a lot of reasons to put what you want into YOUR airplane. Theres some outrageously cool stuff engine-wise in Jack Morrisons plane, and others..but ultimately it is what you feel comfortable with. Experimental is what this is all about for some...others in gradations. The fact that you don't see it the way some others see it, is just your comfort zone. No harm, no fowl.

[wish there was a dancing chicken- to insert here.]

As to the 100% confidence... man I hope that I can get close to that. The worse thing I ever heard was a guy saying he just didn't want to really fly much because he didn't feel comfortable with his plane. Would that be a drag or what?

I hope to be 95% comfortable mechanically at first flight and climb up to the 99.9 percentage-wise level after the 40 hr fly-off. I too am flyin' my family around in this contraption.=]

[Neverquit]

Since the thread is leading to far off places.....

 

I'm sure i'll earn the wrath of the cozygirrrls for those comments..

I thought the Girrls were considering a rotary as well.

 

Theres some outrageously cool stuff engine-wise in Jack Morrisons plane

Including a high performance V8 at one time.

 

Running oil lines up to the front will cause you to keep about a quart of oil in the system at every oil change.

Not to mention the chance of a nasty oil leak or hot lines traveling through a hot plane in the summer. I was wondering how well the oil cooler to the (insulated) heat duct would work if you had a good fan to blow it forward? I hear manifold heat sucked but maybe a better controlled source? At least you could turn it off.

[Edge 513]

* Aiman wants a Sub, Girrrls are Rotary spinners.

* Jacks an example of experimentation. He keeps refining and exploring.

* Maybe if you read Waiters write up- its not what you feel comfy with- no problem- Since Wait did a great job of describing his system and, from what I gather from Chris, Chris E's nose heat, its just easier to direct you there. The lines are in the insulated duct chase for mine and I don't think they are going to be a factor heatwise/linewise in the cabin on a hot day. There are two fittings at the oil cooler and 1700lb rated hoses for 75#? pressure oil. Originally my wanting nose heat stemmed from NOT wanting that blasted GIGANTIC duct that separates the two back seats. [i wanted a somewhat comfier backseat for passengers]. See my 1st pic I did for a guy who was asking about this a while back.. I built my back seats and the duct chase so as to flush out with the 2" seatback foam that will be on those seatbacks. [i had checked and noted that I could fit all the cables, hoses and fuel line in that space before building it]. I also made the secondary horizontal chase only 1" tall so to minimize the ridge next to your butt [its way taller than that per plans[and uncomfortable]. So.....if you were to put a cooler/blower assembly on the fire wall to blow heat up to your toes, you would need [iMHO] a larger heat duct than plans to service the run. And at the least you would need that large rear seatback separation elbow/hip duct/chase. Anyway thats what I saw it about a year ago,,and didn't come up with anything different..so thats my drift.

Also pics of seat edges dremeled & finished with micro and my heat diagram.

[rickh]

Edge,

 

The thread originally wasn't about scraps. I just wanted to see if I could just save a tiny bit of effort by ordering cozy chapter/section materials from spruce or wicks for building my OpenEZ.

Wellll... If you order glass by the chapter, the first thing you'll do is cut the start of the BID 'roll' on the bias, and you'll have an additional triangle when you get to the end of the 'roll'. Wastage? Maybe.

 

I don't recall a cut from my roll of BID at anything other that 45* to the edge. Could be wrong though, it's happened before...

 

Rick

[TMann]

Wellll... If you order glass by the chapter, the first thing you'll do is cut the start of the BID 'roll' on the bias, and you'll have an additional triangle when you get to the end of the 'roll'. Wastage? Maybe.

 

I don't recall a cut from my roll of BID at anything other that 45* to the edge. Could be wrong though, it's happened before...

 

Rick

Don't know about the cozy but the long-EZ uses 30 degree cuts in chapter 7.