rviglierchio Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 Has anyone installed Hooker Sport Belts in their Canard? Am looking into these and don't know what to ask for in terms of lengths and ends etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMann Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 I'm installing a 6 point harness in my long-EZ. No familiar with 'Hooker'. (at least not since I got married.) Quote T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18 Velocity/RG N951TM Mann's Airplane Factory We add rocket's to everything! 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Swenson Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 I took the Hookers out of my backseat (Cozy) because they were too hard to adjust from going to real small kids to "full size" adults. The right passenger seat also gives me the same problem but have not changed that yet. I will probably keep the Hooker on my side due to the fact that I never need to adjust it. You will note that on Berkut13.com, that he took his out to reduce weight. I think that they are also too much weight----and too hard to mess with---for the kind of flying we do in canards. If I were in a Pitts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverquit Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 T-Mann thanks to you this thread is getting funnier as it goes. So what's wrong with the plans seatbelts? You just looking for the cool factor or are they more comfortable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argoldman Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 I took the Hookers out of my backseat (Cozy) because they were too hard to adjust from going to real small kids to "full size" adults. The right passenger seat also gives me the same problem but have not changed that yet. I will probably keep the Hooker on my side due to the fact that I never need to adjust it. You will note that on Berkut13.com, that he took his out to reduce weight. I think that they are also too much weight----and too hard to mess with---for the kind of flying we do in canards. If I were in a Pitts... They are only heavy if you don't have to use them. (much the same as the second ignition system, and the myriad of duplications that we use in the name of safety). I can personally attest to the fact that shoulder harnesses are life savers. In my off airport "arrival" they prevented me from stopping the forward motion of my body and head into the instrument panel. (I have hookers) We just, sadly enough, lost a Very-ez pilot. The newspaper story indicated that he was thrown outside the plane at the crash . It will be interesting to find out, if we can, where the belt/harness failure happened, if indeed he was wearing one. I lost a friend in a Cirrus accident. He had loosened his harness to get something (engine check list or whatever) The other three passengers in the plane suffered only(?) broken backs but are alive and relatively well today. My friend suffered massive thoracic trauma when he apparently hit the panel unrestrained by the harness. Them belts is your friends!!!! Put up with the inconvenience. Quote I Canardly contain myself! Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMann Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 So what's wrong with the plans seatbelts? You just looking for the cool factor or are they more comfortable?For me, I just wanted better. Coolness was not a factor. RG- Yes, the belts are our friends. The survival rate increases if we can stay inside the airframe. The whole concept of surviving as a result of being thrown clear is a myth. Quote T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18 Velocity/RG N951TM Mann's Airplane Factory We add rocket's to everything! 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Kriley Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 For me, I just wanted better. Coolness was not a factor. RG- Yes, the belts are our friends. The survival rate increases if we can stay inside the airframe. The whole concept of surviving as a result of being thrown clear is a myth. But the question was - what's wrong with the plans belts? They are 4-point harnesses. Do we really need 5 and 6-point harnesses in these planes? Why not add airbags and parachutes too? Quote Phil Kriley Cozy #1460 Chapter 13 - nose Right wing done - working on right winglet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMann Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 But the question was - what's wrong with the plans belts? Whatever you want to settle for should be fine. Why a 6 point? You are already semi-reclined in a normal configuration. The additional 2 thigh belts will maintain the alignment the the lap belt over the pelvis where it does the most good and causes the least injury. The 5th belt in a 5 point harness will do the same but the celebration of surviving an 'event' may not be as vigorous. As far as the parachute goes, for my flight testing, I plan on wearing one. As a former jumpmaster and demo team member .......... I'd feel pretty stupid going down with the aircraft when getting out is so EZ. Quote T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18 Velocity/RG N951TM Mann's Airplane Factory We add rocket's to everything! 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Swenson Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 I think someone misinterpreted my post. Both my hookers and my normal plans belts are 4 point systems. Most canard accidents that I have read about where the occupant was thrown from the aircraft was not due to the seat belt failing (regardless of maker)---it was due to the seat belt mount ripping from the aircraft. I would also say that a properly fitted non-hooker belt is far superior to an ill fitting hooker belt-----which was the case in the rear and still is the case on the right passenger. Once you get a hooker harness set up for you (which takes a while), I am sure that the hooker is far superior due to its wider belts to transmit deceleration forces more evenly across the body. But even the hookers won't stop them from being ripped from the fuselage. Might need a better mounting system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverquit Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Sorry if I'm going a bit off topic but the best "alternate runway" story recently was the from David Orr tagging a powerline and ending up going through a neighborhood the hard way. He talks about ripping things off the plane as he skidded tagging joshaua trees along the way. He and his GF stepped out with little injury. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macleodm3 Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Do you know where David posted this survival story? I'd like to read it if its available. Quote Andrew Anunson I work underground and I play in the sky... no problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Swenson Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 99% sure that he posted it in his newsletter---and it may have also showed up in CSA. You can write him to recieve his email newsletter---its free. The big take away (other than his very nice survivable landing)---was that his mag and electronic ign switches got soaked in heavy rain---and more or less quit working (working from memory here). And that is why I advise people with a longez to to mount these switches on a side panel on the canopy side----it is very dry there. The back of the inst panel can get very wet in the rain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rviglierchio Posted December 2, 2007 Author Share Posted December 2, 2007 We've gotten WAY off topic here but this is the link you're looking for: http://www.ez.org/orr20050110.htm Now, back to Hooker belts, these are great units. Just installed mine tonight. But the lap belt is not easy to adjust in the cockpit of a Long EZ. So the front seat setup is fine for the regular pilot, unless your beer and pasta intake varies a lot! But to use them in the back seems like a pain as one would have to constantly adjust them for the passengers as they change in 'thickness' of lower extremities.... Any input out there, or comments on the plans attachment points.....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMann Posted December 2, 2007 Share Posted December 2, 2007 Do you know where David posted this survival story? I'd like to read it if its available.You can find the NTSB report here. Quote T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18 Velocity/RG N951TM Mann's Airplane Factory We add rocket's to everything! 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpolenek Posted December 2, 2007 Share Posted December 2, 2007 Based on accidents in which the seatbelts/harnesses were needed, do we know that the attach point retention is adequate? Have there been any cases that suggest that it is not? The shoulder brace that retains the harness attach points doesn't seem too beefy considering the function it might have to perform, especially on the Cozy where the shoulder brace has a wider span. (But I'm no expert on composites, and it still surprises me how much strength a seemingly small amount of this material can have.) I can personally attest to the fact that shoulder harnesses are life savers. In my off airport "arrival" they prevented me from stopping the forward motion of my body and head into the instrument panel. Rich: Based on your experience, what is your opinion on the Cozy/Aerocanard configuration, and how it would perform if put to the test. Joe Polenek Quote Joe Cozy Mk IV #1550 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waiter Posted December 2, 2007 Share Posted December 2, 2007 I Participated in several LongEZ accident investigations. One particular accident, the aircraft impacted into water inverted with almost no forward velocity (Inverted deep stall from about 17,000 ft). This is probably worst case for the seat belts. The pilot was ejected through the canopy upon impact. The Metal tab of the belt (the part that the web goes through) failed, at both the shoulder attach points and one of the lap attach points. The hardware, bolts, extrusions, and the bent/broken web tab, were still attached soundly to the airframe. Waiter Quote F16 performance on a Piper Cub budget LongEZ, 160hp, MT CS Prop, Downdraft cooling, Full retract visit: www.iflyez.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpolenek Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 The Metal tab of the belt (the part that the web goes through) failed, at both the shoulder attach points and one of the lap attach points. Was the integrity of the failed metal tabs ever in question? Or is that just where the weakest point in that system happens to be. (Somehow, I always assumed that other parts of the plane would fail before one of it's primary safety components.) Joe Polenek Quote Joe Cozy Mk IV #1550 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waiter Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 Was the integrity of the failed metal tabs ever in question? I don't think that was the question, but that was the observation. The web tabs failed, but the attach points were still intact. Waiter Quote F16 performance on a Piper Cub budget LongEZ, 160hp, MT CS Prop, Downdraft cooling, Full retract visit: www.iflyez.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMann Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 Proper alignment of the belts also relate to the srength of the webbing used in harnesses and restraint systems. i.e. No twists etc as it does affect the overall strength of the webbing. It was applicable in our parachute harness system and translates to restraints as well. Kind of like uni in tour aircraft. Quote T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18 Velocity/RG N951TM Mann's Airplane Factory We add rocket's to everything! 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radioflyer Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 My LongEz has the simple 4 point system. Two shoulder belts, joining tongue-in-slot in the middle of the lap belt. I like a tight seatbelt, but then I found I could not reach the fuel selector. So,I loosen them up a bit, but if too loose, the shoulder belt slipsoff the shoulder. I think I need a web across the chest to keep the shoulder belts from spreading apart. I've seen some pics of LongEzs with an inertial restraint system, probably adapted from a car. The 2 shoulder belts, join to the one belt retracting into the inertial reel. If I was building new, I would install an inertial reel. When I get thru other more pressing things on my punch list, I think I will eventually convert to an inertial system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMann Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 ....but then I found I could not reach the fuel selector.Yep ....... which is why I decided on my left console for the location of my fuel selector on my Long-EZ. Quote T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18 Velocity/RG N951TM Mann's Airplane Factory We add rocket's to everything! 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge 513 Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 For value, these 6 point belts [omit the bottom two if you want 4- thats what I think I will do] with the ease of a single twist racing closure, from Summit racing, for 129 bucks sure seem GREAT! At the cost of those Hookers- they ain't goin' in my plane...sophomoric name, and they are expensive.[i guess heavy too.] These G-Force's look pretty racy...and when you look at them close, they still don't look like they will wear out very quick. Aren't those Hooker harness' an aerobatic type item? Quote Self confessed Wingnut. Now think about it...wouldn't you rather LIVE your life, rather than watch someone else's, on Reality T.V.? Get up off that couch!!! =) Progress; Fuselage on all three, with outside and inside nearly complete. 8 inch extended nose. FHC done. Canard finished. ERacer wings done with blended winglets. IO540 starting rebuild. Mounting Spar. Starting strake ribs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rviglierchio Posted December 22, 2007 Author Share Posted December 22, 2007 I had the Summit belts with rotary closure but mistakenly ordered 3" and they were awful. Now have the Hookers with simple closure and they are fabulous. 1-1/2" belts with very nice pads. The lap belt is not something easily adjusted while seated. But once set up they are great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge 513 Posted December 22, 2007 Share Posted December 22, 2007 Sorry I forgot to mention that a guy needs to order the 2" wide version from Summit..they are available in 2inch and 3 inch width. No hookers allowed in my plane:rolleyes: Glad they're workin' for you though Rvig.=] Quote Self confessed Wingnut. Now think about it...wouldn't you rather LIVE your life, rather than watch someone else's, on Reality T.V.? Get up off that couch!!! =) Progress; Fuselage on all three, with outside and inside nearly complete. 8 inch extended nose. FHC done. Canard finished. ERacer wings done with blended winglets. IO540 starting rebuild. Mounting Spar. Starting strake ribs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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