Cozy or Open-EZ?

[Shotgun06]

Hello everyone

 

I've been considering (Dreaming ) for a long time building a Long-EZ or a Cozy IV and I have now the space (a very large heated garage with space for 2 cars PLUS space to build an airplane...) and time to start building. I am now considering building the Open Ez and I really like the idea of bringing back to life the design. The only thing that kind of bug me is the that I'd prefer to pay $500 for a Cozy IV plan with a license # to build an aircraft than pay $375 for a TERF CD that seems to be of no value since I am not allowed to build a Long-EZ from it! What am I paying for then??? I like the requirement for a smaller engine an the the tandem seating of the Open EZ but the Cozy would allow to carry more luggage ( I like my wife to be Happy:rolleyes: ) and my wife would prefer side by side seating. Final cost of the airpane would be less for the Open EZ, so would be its value (althought I am not building to sell...). Cost of operation would be also less (price of fuel... ). Another option would be to buy from one of my friend a set of Aerocanard plan that he bought and that he no longer plan to build from (He want to build an RV-8 now:( ). Anyway, more than never I don't know which one to choose but I will start to build the big 4x12 table next week and maybe I will become builder of Open-Ez #1....Kinda

[Jon Matcho]

Hello everyone

Welcome!

 

...pay $375 for a TERF CD that seems to be of no value since I am not allowed to build a Long-EZ from it!

Says who? You could build a plane from memory and get it registered with the FAA and fly it (assuming it's airworthy).

 

What am I paying for then???

The ability to build a tandem canard aircraft.

 

Sounds like you need to think things through to identify what type of aircraft you'd like to own and operate when you're done. It's easier to travel in a Cozy or AeroCanard than it is a Long-EZ. Passengers enjoy the upfront seating better as well. Still, the Long-EZ design is great and economical.

[Waiter]

Shotgun06, Contact me off line. at

 

waiter AT iflyez DOT com

 

Waiter

[Shotgun06]

I agree with you that if I decide to build an Open-EZ I will need the instructions on the TERF CD. I am not that smart . It's just the fact that I feel the price is a little high for instructions they don't want you to use...

But like someone said on that forum, it is only a very small part of the total price of a completed flying airplane but i would like to start the project feeling good about it. That's all

[Waiter]

I have a set of LongEZ plans that my wife found at a Garage sale back in the early 90's. I always questioned if they were original or a copy, as the front cover is a different color then mine, (Light Tan or Almond color). Other than the color of the cover, they are identical to my Blue covered plans that I bought from Rutan back in the 80's just before they shut down.

 

They have the template sheets, but I need to look again and verify that all the templates are there. (wings, rudders, canard, instrument panel, nose gear drawings, etc.)

 

Evidently, My wife wasn't aware that there were two books, Section I and Section II, She didn't remember seeing the small Section II booklet. This isn't a big deal, as Section II is only a few pages compared to Section I. I have my original Section II from my plans.

 

Section II covers the engine / firewall installation. Although Section II is good to have for reference, I would venture to say that most of the information in Section II has been superseded by most builders since the early 90's. i.e. brake cylinders are no longer on the firewall, the air intake and filter system is no longer mounted on the firewall, etc. A copy of Tony Bigilias (spelling) "Firewall Forward" has more information than Section II.

 

There were two versions of the Section II, One for an O-200 and the other for an O-235. Personally, I believe the O-320 is the engine of choice for the LongEz and would never even consider the original choices. (O-320 are cheaper and more abundant than the other choices anyway)

 

Anyway, these are the plans only, you still need to come up with the CP's and go through the plans and add in the corrections and changes from the CP's.

 

The only reason I never put these on the market before, is. I didn't feel comfortable selling them to someone knowing that they may not be complete. So, the solution to this is as follows:

 

When you get these plans, You need to find a copy of the CPs and go through and Update the plans. This is mandatory. You should also order the High Performance rudder plans, the Rontcz (spelling) canard plans, and the hidden bellhorn plans from Rutan.

 

I'll sell them only if I can determine that they are original, and the templates are complete. Otherwise I will not sell them.

 

Waiter

[jany77]

i was wondering if the cd from terf has all the proper sizes of the stuff like wings fuselage sides etc im new in this so i apologize for anything ill say here ,i downloaded the open ez stuff but there is only templates not what kind of material was used is that on this cd thanks

[Drew Swenson]

The CD has the plans and all the CPs----no templates.

[Jon Matcho]

i was wondering if the cd from terf...

The CD has all the instructions you need to determine how to use the drawings for the Open-EZ available at the first post of this thread.

[Nathan Gifford]

One other consideration for you and your wife is whether one day you will need 3 or 4 seats. I do know of people who started out building a two-seater and then had to start a 4.

[jany77]

i think the cd from terf is 295$

[Shotgun06]

You are right, the price for the TERF CD is $295 (my mistake ). There is one for sale on eBay that you can buy for $220 (Buy it Now) if someone is interested...

[Shotgun06]

I got the TERF CD now and I can see that the Cozy manual is really just a re-writen version of the Long-EZ manual. I'm getting closer to starting construction...

[Jon Matcho]

I got the TERF CD now and I can see that the Cozy manual is really just a re-writen version of the Long-EZ manual.

...and with a couple numbers changed.

 

I think it's great that the chapter #s are the same so that Long-EZ, Open-EZ, Cozy, and AeroCanard builders are on the same page when talking abut their progress.

 

I'm getting closer to starting construction...

Yes you are. Money is clearly starting to flow from your wallet. Just make sure you have the time and commitment to spend as well.

 

Best wishes! Keep us posted.

[Kent Ashton]

The Long-EZ is a great little airplane but the Cozy IV has a lot more utility and the design benefits from integrating a lot of Long-EZ changes over the years. The Cozy plans are better and more detailed and the Cozy gear is sturdier.

 

It doesn' take much more money to build and operate a Cozy vs. an EZ and you can throw a lot of stuff in the back of a Cozy. The downside is the need to shuffle ballast around in the Cozys.

[Drekar]

I am trying to decide between the Cozy or the Open-EZ as well. Is there somewhere i can see a good comparison of their relative strong-points?

 

I really don't need a 4-seat, and if I can get away with a smaller engine in the Open-EZ, wouldn't that drastically reduce both the build cost and ongoing cost of the plane?

 

Thanks!

[Phil Kriley]

The original poster said his wife would prefer side-by-side seating. That would have sealed it for me right there. You will want her support during the building process - seems like her desire for side-by-side would nix the open EZ. Sure would for me, at least.

[Jon Matcho]

He also wanted a smaller engine. The E-Racer is another option.

[Phil Kriley]

He also wanted a smaller engine. The E-Racer is another option.

True, but in my house, "If the mama ain't happy, ain't NOBODY happy..."

[Halpm]

Oh how very true...

[karoliina]

Just to add some of my thoughts to this thread:

- I have Cozy plans (original ones on paper) and I have now LEZ plans too (on CD-ROM).

What I can say is that they are almost identical except some text and drawings are redone by Nat, but the part, layup schedule, everything is the same except it is wider. Some things are covered in the Cozy plans in greater detail. Some sentences have been modified a bit and some are exactly the same than on LEZ plans. Some Burt Rutan's original pictures even have ended up in the Cozy plans.

 

The widening has brought some downsides which may or may not affect the choice. In my case, it didn't affect the choice until I learned what the Cozy IV specs actually mean in practise.

 

So the deal is about this:

- Long-Ez has longer canard, lighter wing loading on canard, and more aft CG than a Cozy with two persons on front seat

Sounds like a little difference. At least it sounded like a little difference in the beginning. However, the thing is that with Long-Ez you have stall speed at around 65 kts. With the two full grown persons on front seat, the stall speed on Cozy gets up to about 80 kts according to reports. The Cafe foundation's report 72 kts is apparently for the original length canard. At least some tinkering with X-plane (yeah, I know it is a simulator only) also concludes that the stall speed is around 80 kts on the most front CG that occurs when you place two times of me on the front. The front CG was verified with Marc's weight & balance calculator. In our use case the CG will get always to about the max forward position.

 

The safe landing speed is usually defined to be 1.3 * stall speed. 1.3 * 80 = a lot more than 1.3 * 65. There is a huge difference if you make your approach at 85 kts or 105 kts.

 

FAR part 23 defines the maximum of 61 kts for stall speed for single engine aircraft. With exception Pilatus has got 65 kts approved, the airframe and cockpit is strong enough to handle 65 kts off-field landing without very high risk of resulting fatalities. Not so surprising thing is that Rutan's plane gets barely just on that figure. However, by widening the LEZ to Cozy and not changing the canard and wings to keep the wing loading the same as in LEZ and the canard is shortened instead, it is pretty obvious that Cozy don't fit into the FAR part 23 stall speed criteria, not even nearly. In fact, Cozy has higher stall speed than Viperjet, Pilatus turboprop or even turboprop Lancair IVP (or any other Lancair model).

 

So what will the higher landing speed then matter? I think it does not matter if you are only operating on large airfields and never get so unlucky that you would need to do a forced landing. However, with slower approach speed and lighter weight when fully packed, the LEZ takes theretically shorter amount of runway to stop. I have never flown in LEZ and I have only once flown in Cozy Classic, so I am not the person to give real world comparisons, but I would assume based on simple logic that LEZ equipped with similar tires and brakes (e.g. Matco brakes) than Cozy, stops in a significantly shorter distance than the Cozy will and therefore provides more versatility on airfields shorter than 4000 feets and also gives more opportunity for interrupted takeoff whereas Cozy wouldn't stop before the end of the runway comes. If that counts something to you, then you might consider Open-Ez. If it doesn't, then you can pack more stuff inside the Cozy and have side by side seating which is useful e.g. if the co-pilot handles navigation and operates radio frequencies etc. and leaves the pilot free from these tasks.

 

If you don't want to experiment but want to get a plane to fly, then go and buy e.g. a Diamond DA-40, DA-50 or Cirrus SR-20/22/... The number of hours marketed is different from the actual number of hours really required - plans built aircraft is what it is, takes a very long time to build and that means a long time by dedicating all available time every day for an extended period meaning no movies, no tv, no fun, no nothing but doing the plane. I have found out that managing time for allocating time for building the plane is very difficult for someone working in demanding day-job where days can get longer unpredictably etc. And the simplicity marketed is different from the knowledge required to complete the project in a meaningful time period. You have to know a lot and if you don't know, you have to gain the knowledge. That is on the other hand one of the major reasons for building an aircraft - to learn.

[TMann]

no movies, no tv, no fun, no nothing but doing the plane.

Wait a minute......building the plane IS the fun part. Flying the plane is the funner part.

Just wanted to clear that up!

[Marc Zeitlin]

What I can say is that they are almost identical except some text and drawings are redone by Nat, but the part, layup schedule, everything is the same except it is wider.

SOME of the layup schedules are the same, and some are NOT. The spar caps and shear webs are NOT the same. This is critical.

 

...With the two full grown persons on front seat, the stall speed on Cozy gets up to about 80 kts according to reports.

What reports would those be?

 

My dead stock COZY (aerodynamically and structurally) stall speed, at mid-weights and mid-CG, is about 72 MPH, or 62 KTS. At 2150 lb. and full forward CG, the stall speed is about 80 mph, or 69 kts. Solo, with light fuel loads, it's about 65 mph, or 56 kts. Hardly 80 kts.

 

...The Cafe foundation's report 72 kts is apparently for the original length canard.

They tested Mark Beduhn's plane, which, unless I'm mistaken, has the short canard, NOT the longer, original one.

 

... At least some tinkering with X-plane (yeah, I know it is a simulator only) also concludes that the stall speed is around 80 kts on the most front CG that occurs when you place two times of me on the front.

The fact that X-plane predicts something that's outside of it's capabilities to do is a meaningless factoid, at best. COZY's do NOT stall at 80 kts in 1G flight.

 

The safe landing speed is usually defined to be 1.3 * stall speed. 1.3 * 80 = a lot more than 1.3 * 65. There is a huge difference if you make your approach at 85 kts or 105 kts.

Since your premise is incorrect, your conclusions are incorrect also.

 

.... it is pretty obvious that Cozy don't fit into the FAR part 23 stall speed criteria, not even nearly. In fact, Cozy has higher stall speed than Viperjet, Pilatus turboprop or even turboprop Lancair IVP (or any other Lancair model).

Only using your erroneous figures. Talk to folks that fly Lancairs and Glasairs - ask them what their approach/touchdown speeds are - they're higher than the COZY, and that's because their wing loading is higher. The Glasair III touches down at my approach speeds.

 

I have never flown in LEZ and I have only once flown in Cozy Classic, so I am not the person to give real world comparisons, but I would assume based on simple logic that LEZ equipped with similar tires and brakes (e.g. Matco brakes) than Cozy, stops in a significantly shorter distance than the Cozy will .....

First of all, as far as real world experience goes, folks that fly LE's and COZY's fly them at almost exactly the same approach and landing speeds. The LE might be a bit slower, but it's not significantly so. The VE is at least as fast on approach and landing as the COZY, due to wing loading.

 

With respect to your red herring about 4000 ft. runways, I operate out of a 4000 ft runway that's at 4000 ft. elevation. I've taken off of this runway at Max Gross weight on a hotter than standard day - DA was about 5000 - 5500 ft. It wasn't pretty, but it worked. I've taken off from 2400 ft. fields on 80 F days at mid-weights at SL, and been off the ground in 1200 ft. I can land in less than 1500 ft. at SL, and less than 4000 ft. at 10K ft. DA. Even an almost MGW takeoff at 10K ft. DA used about 5000 - 5500 ft. of runway - hardly a daily occurrance.

 

I'm starting to believe that, as Dennis Passey does, you harbor some sort of pathological dislike for the COZY design. It's NOT perfect - not by any means - I've had uncountable arguments with Nat regarding possible improvements, and there certainly are improvements to be made. But it's not necessary to spread falsehoods about the aircraft in order to have discussions about the tradeoffs that were made during the design process, nor to discuss the possible improvements to the aircraft.

[TMann]

Sounds like the Open-EZ is what you are leaning towards (and there's nothing wrong with that.)

I'm building a Long-Eze myself (so I am not totally objective here.)

 

When I went about selecting a vehicle, my criteria was that I would be able to fit a sheet of plywood in it.

 

As far as my plane selection goes, I don't anticipate flying with more than myself and my wife (and it will usually be myself.) With that in mind, I would rather fly with enough extra foam and glass to accomodate 1 additional passanger, not three. It's kind of like the two seat sports car vs. the sedan. Whatever meets your needs.

 

As far as supporting stats and such, it's your decision (and coming to a decision/commitment is the important step.) There is no need to explain how you got there.

 

No matter what choice you make, you are going to experience the same joys, frustration, forehead slapping, etc. that goes with the project.

 

So ............. order some foam!

 

T Mann

 

No rant..........just fact.

[Jon Matcho]

Just to add some of my thoughts to this thread:

Thanks for awakening this thread Karoliina, I appreciate the points you're making:

• Cozy plans are very similar to Long-EZ plans.
• The Cozy flies differently than the Long-EZ (but as Marc points out, slightly different -- not entirely different as you suggest).
• Building one of these is a MAJOR project requiring near-obsessive behavior (you have to be on a mission).

Marc, thanks very much for the data.

 

I'm building a Long-Eze myself (so I am not totally objective here.)

T, unless you're building a mutant Long-EZ/VariEze combination, you're not building a Long-Eze. Check your plans. It's a Long-EZ.

 

Must get myself in the shop now...

[TMann]

er.......um.....maybe it's really a Long-EZ version "E"..... Yeah, That's it!

A Long-EZ(e)!

 

I'm just trying to get to the point where I'm cutting Foam!

I have most everything to get started.

I have my table built (heavy but on casters).

My vacuum bagging setup is ready to go (minus my pressure switch.)

Got my sticky stuff pump.

Hot wire tool.

Fein Multimaster.

Foam, aluminum, SS, cables.

I bought the retracts from JD out at Infinity Aerospace.

I have my canopy.

 

I'm including some Carbon Fiber in my build (not up for discussion.)

I bought the hot-wire setup from ACS along with the voltage system.

 

I know I could have save some bucks on some of the tools like the hotwire but I'd rather spend the money and spend the time on my build.

 

I bought my plans from a guy back in about 87-88. Now I'm in a position to do the project.

 

I'm a software guy so I built a database of all the parts I need for the build. I then build some queries so I can pick which chapter I want to order for. My query then reviews the pricelist from ACS & Wicks to find the best price and then creates an order to each for optimum pricing.

 

It also will go throught all other outstanding parts to be sure that all of the same part number are ordered at the same time so you aren't ordering 5-10 screws 4-5 times.

 

I'm almost ready to cut foam DIMMIT!

 

I am so pumped!