Crazycanuck Posted September 29, 2008 Posted September 29, 2008 So what is the current situation with Infinity retractable main gear? I have read a lot about it in past threads, but most of the threads are old. There seems to be much controversy surrounding this modification not being according to plans. I spent the last little while reading about this modification. The trouble with the Internet is that it is difficult to separate truth from questionable opinion. Most of the rejections seem to be gut feelings about the modification. The plans and newsletter obviously don’t recommend retractable gear, but this is probably because of liability issues more than anything. Isn’t the experimental category intended for a little experimentation? Anyway, if I am going to build my plane with retractable gear it makes a lot more sense to build with this in mind from the beginning as opposed to retrofitting it later. So I should get to this decision made very soon and then get onto acquiring the parts. I really like the idea of retractable gear. It seems like this is such a huge project already, it would be nice to finish it off with full retractable gear if possible. Some say that Infinity is very slow at delivering product. How slow have they been recently? I thought that perhaps I should place a deposit now and get my spot in line. I understand that he needs enough orders to do a production run, but I don’t like the idea of leaving money someplace while waiting for delivery. What happens if the company goes bankrupt before I get my landing gear? Quote Crazy Canuck Toronto, Ontario, Canada Cozy MKIV #MK1536
Lynn Erickson Posted September 29, 2008 Posted September 29, 2008 So what is the current situation with Infinity retractable main gear? I have read a lot about it in past threads, but most of the threads are old. There seems to be much controversy surrounding this modification not being according to plans. I spent the last little while reading about this modification. The trouble with the Internet is that it is difficult to separate truth from questionable opinion. Most of the rejections seem to be gut feelings about the modification. The plans and newsletter obviously don’t recommend retractable gear, but this is probably because of liability issues more than anything. Isn’t the experimental category intended for a little experimentation? Anyway, if I am going to build my plane with retractable gear it makes a lot more sense to build with this in mind from the beginning as opposed to retrofitting it later. So I should get to this decision made very soon and then get onto acquiring the parts. I really like the idea of retractable gear. It seems like this is such a huge project already, it would be nice to finish it off with full retractable gear if possible. Some say that Infinity is very slow at delivering product. How slow have they been recently? I thought that perhaps I should place a deposit now and get my spot in line. I understand that he needs enough orders to do a production run, but I don’t like the idea of leaving money someplace while waiting for delivery. What happens if the company goes bankrupt before I get my landing gear? you need to decide why you want retracts Performance is a little bit better, 10 MPH at stock cozy IV top speed performance on higher speed canard aircraft is a bit better but at 200kts it is about 12 kts. if it for looks, well they look good both ways if it is for safety they are definitely not safer. more to go wrong. and if they don't work there is a chance of loosing the whole aircraft for one little problem. at the end of EVERY flight there is always one more thing to worry about, even if you remember to through the switch you have to worry if they are going to work. yes, it is a huge project and with retracts is even bigger then you can imagine. even people that have all the time in the world to build do not choose that big a project. and if you really have to have them, well it can be done I know because I built mine from scratch as for the Infinity first there is delivery, not to good, some are still waiting after 4 years. the gear does work but no one to date has install a set that they did not have make mods to get them to work properly. when working properly it is just an ok set of gear as for the wider stance being better it is not any better for that reason. I have flown all the retracts out there, Infinity, velo, berkut and fixed. they all land the same and the brakes work the same. the manufacturer has made several updates to the gear over the years and some of those have solved some of the problems and some have not. if you have any doubt that you want them then don't do it. if you are willing to do anything it takes to have them then I would say, still don't do it, but if you just really, really, really! have to have them then do it. Will you be glad you have them when you are standing near the plane and can say to others I put in retracts, Maybe. Will you be glade when you use the plane to go flying, No. Will you be able to say to others that you would do it knowing what you no now, NO WAY Quote Evolultion Eze RG -a two place side by side-200 Knots on 200 HP. A&P / pilot for over 30 years
Drew Swenson Posted September 29, 2008 Posted September 29, 2008 First you have to come to terms with why you want main gear retracts. If it is for more speed, you can get quite a lot of speed increases by drag reduction by properly fairing the main gear legs and fitting a good pair of wheel pants. So if you do add the retracts, you get this (over the faired legs and wheelpants) -minimal amount of speed increase -loss of gas -more weight -more complexity (increase risk to you even finishing--more time to build) -inc cost ($5000?) -inc insurance rates -inc risk of scraping up the bottom of the plane in a gear up landing (and possibly trashing the engine). You only scrape up the nose on a conventional EZ. -increase risk of damaging the wingspar in an offroad landing (or running off the end of the runway---unless you keep the gear up). On the conventional EZ, you will just rip the gear off the belly----more damage with the retract. Now if you just want your EZ to look cool and carry a lot more risk for a little speed increase... Note that the Berkut gear does not attach to the spar---which eliminates those kind of risks. Quote
Rydogg Posted September 29, 2008 Posted September 29, 2008 -inc insurance rates.Why would the insurance rates increase? In the eyes of the insurer, the Long-EZ is already a retract because of the retractable nose gear. Having RG mains should not change the status... that I can think of. Am I missing something??? Quote
Waiter Posted September 29, 2008 Posted September 29, 2008 If you think you'll install the Infinity gear at some point, I would at least perform a couple modifications to your Centerspar when you build it. You can talk to JD at Infinity, tell him your on the fence about installing the gear, but would at least like to do the Centerspar. I'm sure he would send you the plans that cover this portion of the installation. If I were purchasing a gear set from ANYONE, I would draw up a purchase agreement that includes a firm delivery date. If the complete set isn't delivered by X date, a Full refund of deposit will be made, AND any components delivered will remain with the buyer. Waiter Quote F16 performance on a Piper Cub budget LongEZ, 160hp, MT CS Prop, Downdraft cooling, Full retract visit: www.iflyez.com
Drew Swenson Posted September 29, 2008 Posted September 29, 2008 <snip>Why would the insurance rates increase? In the eyes of the insurer, the Long-EZ is already a retract because of the retractable nose gear. Having RG mains should not change the status... that I can think of. Am I missing something???<snip> Hmmm. Interesting question that I may have to pull the thread on with the insurance broker. For insurance, everything is about risk (just like systems engineering). The risk that a Longez pilot lands nose gear up AND files a claim is low (if he does file a claim, I would put him in the not quite bright category). Nose jobs are easy. Bottom line, the risk to the aircraft is low. The problem is retract mains: -prop is gone 1200-1800 for a fixed pitch prop -damage to engine (I assume that you still get a damaged engine from a prop strike----but maybe not quite as bad as getting stopped by an aluminum prop -damage to bottom is pretty good---fixable---but not nearly as fixable as a scraped nose. Bottom line again--nose gear up in an ez is a non-event. Gear up in a certified airplane is terrible and will require an engine teardown. All gear up in an EZ switches the outcome from a non-event to full blown event (probably not as severe as a "certified event." Quote
TMann Posted September 29, 2008 Posted September 29, 2008 Note that the Berkut gear does not attach to the spar---which eliminates those kind of risks. ......... and introduces several more. If you look at many of the retracts that have been produced they swing in to center not out from the fuseage. (Piper Arrow, P-51) The wider stance offered by the infinity gear is much more stable in a cross-wind approach and especially while taxiing. Most of the fuselage mount retracts lack that stability and that degree of engineering. Put your gear down, put the fuel caps on and your REALLY minimize ANY damage to your canard aircraft. Suffice it to say, I have a different opinion on the subject. Quote T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18 Velocity/RG N951TM Mann's Airplane Factory We add rocket's to everything! 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done
airnico Posted September 29, 2008 Posted September 29, 2008 the manufacturer has made several updates to the gear over the years and some of those have solved some of the problems and some have not. Lynn you know this retracts very very well, may you explain to me what has been updated in the gear from the 1th serie to today?? Quote Roads? Where we're going we don't need roads. (Dr. Emmett Brown)
TMann Posted September 29, 2008 Posted September 29, 2008 Lynn you know this retracts very very well, may you explain to me what has been updated in the gear from the 1th serie to today??Please spar us all the Erickson rant. You can read it all here:http://forum.canardaviation.com/showthread.php?t=2212&page=3 Quote T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18 Velocity/RG N951TM Mann's Airplane Factory We add rocket's to everything! 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done
Edge 513 Posted September 30, 2008 Posted September 30, 2008 Just to say TMann that as far as I can tell you and Waiter are the only guys who are thrilled with JD's infinity gear...and neither of you are flying it. YOU are a relative of JD and have championed his gear ad infinitum, and received your gear while others who paid money deposits FOR UP TO 4YEARS, and have still not presently received theirs. +/-18 months ago I asked for a list of FLYERS from anybody who heard of FLYERS using JD's gear, and it never happened. Nobody. This was to provide hopefuls, with some actual contacts, so as to make a decision....never mind they would have to wait YEARS to see said gear. Now, you are a bright guy, maybe a bit opinionated, but we like that... ..but to say that there's a lot of positives to the Infinity experience, is a bit skewed by the facts. Lastly, no Eze iteration has tipped over sideways, so as to need spar mounted retracts...it just isnt and never has been an issue. Quote Self confessed Wingnut. Now think about it...wouldn't you rather LIVE your life, rather than watch someone else's, on Reality T.V.? Get up off that couch!!! =) Progress; Fuselage on all three, with outside and inside nearly complete. 8 inch extended nose. FHC done. Canard finished. ERacer wings done with blended winglets. IO540 starting rebuild. Mounting Spar. Starting strake ribs.
Crazycanuck Posted September 30, 2008 Author Posted September 30, 2008 I guess that there are two main reasons that I would like retractable gear. The first is to increase the speed capabilities. The second is the overall appearance. I just want to be very proud of my finished product. I guess for me that means making it just a little better. Maybe it’s rational or maybe not, but most hobbies aren’t particularly rational. I don’t really consider the cost to be a huge issue, mainly because building this plane is already such a huge time commitment. I plan to own it for 20 years, so I want it to be just right. As far as gear up landing goes, my whole life is check and double checking my work, so it is all about good habits. I am just planning on minimum liability insurance, because I figure that if I crash the plane I will just be happy to be alive if I live through it. So really what I am trying to establish is that no existing builders with this system have had structural issues. I haven’t really come across any hard evidence of this from what I have been reading. I am also really concerned about the time delay of delivery that I have heard about. The commitment to fixed or retractable gear comes fairly early in the build. I would be really annoyed if I was ready to install the gear and I didn’t have them yet. I have heard numbers like 4 years, which seems strange to me. Is this an exaggeration? I would be even more frustrated to discover that after waiting a few years that they were no longer being manufactured. Then what? Is there a similar system with no time delay? Quote Crazy Canuck Toronto, Ontario, Canada Cozy MKIV #MK1536
TMann Posted September 30, 2008 Posted September 30, 2008 YOU are a relative of JD and have championed his gear ad infinitum, and received your gear while others who paid money deposits FOR UP TO 4YEARS, and have still not presently received theirs.Yeah........ we're TWINS! No.... I'm not a realative of JD. He comes to town for HIS family reunion each year the week before Oshkosh and we get together. No..... I don't have my gear yet. I'm at the end of the line .......... waiting patiently. +/-18 months ago I asked for a list of FLYERS from anybody who heard of FLYERS using JD's gear, and it never happened. Nobody........ on this forum (qualify your statement.) I heard Steve Hale bought an existing set from ............ nobody? This was to provide hopefuls, with some actual contacts, so as to make a decision....never mind they would have to wait YEARS to see said gear. Now, you are a bright guy, maybe a bit opinionated, but we like that... ..but to say that there's a lot of positives to the Infinity experience, is a bit skewed by the facts. The experience that counts is in the air.Lastly, no Eze iteration has tipped over sideways, so as to need spar mounted retracts...it just isnt and never has been an issue. No ....... but there is an optimum stance width. The Long-EZ is on the narrow side and the Quickie is on the wide side. It's a solid design and in my opinionated opinion, the best option I could find. Now, you are a bright guy, ,,,,,. Ha ha haaaaa....... had to quote that one again. There's a guy in Perth that would argue that opinion! Quote T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18 Velocity/RG N951TM Mann's Airplane Factory We add rocket's to everything! 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done
Crazycanuck Posted September 30, 2008 Author Posted September 30, 2008 TMann, how long have you been waiting? Quote Crazy Canuck Toronto, Ontario, Canada Cozy MKIV #MK1536
TMann Posted September 30, 2008 Posted September 30, 2008 Since about April, last year. ...... Take it away Lynn! Quote T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18 Velocity/RG N951TM Mann's Airplane Factory We add rocket's to everything! 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done
Lynn Erickson Posted September 30, 2008 Posted September 30, 2008 Lynn you know this retracts very very well, may you explain to me what has been updated in the gear from the 1th serie to today??I know there are some on the forum that don't want to here or believe the facts of the problems that we experienced with this gear. You can dispute the facts if you like. but I was there during all the work and did some of the mods and test flying myself. I own and fly a retractable side by side canard called the evolution ez. my gear is based on the eracer/ berkut gear system and has flown 450 hours with over 600 landings to date. I have been an A& P for 37 years and specialize in electrical and hydraulics. so believe these facts or believe some one with a lot less experience that has not built and worked on or flown even one canard aircraft . the retract arm was glued onto the strut tube and they failed now they are welded the over center link pin failed, don't know if they made any changes. the internal slotted tube was made of aluminum it failed so the factory did a updated version and it failed so we made new ones out of chrome moly. you have to use Michilin tires they are lower profile then the others, all others rub on the bottom of the half fork when at high RPM. the electrical control box failed several times and we made some changes to prevent further failures. the emergency blow down does not work, bad design. because of the type of retracts the braking system has a high spot in the line which makes the system very very hard to bleed. the seals leak all the time tried many things but always needs to be cleaned up before flight. had pans under the strut when parked, looks like radial engine plane with drip pans under every thing that used oil. because of the seal leak, the struts would extend while in the wheel well during flight and would get stuck in the well. had to cycle the gear to get them to draw up and then gear would extend. I don't know how many of these things have been address by the factory but these are most of the problems we had while trying to keep two different aircraft flying with these retracts. some of these problems were experienced on both of these aircraft, one an Aerocanard and one a long ez. I just hope your results are better then these. Quote Evolultion Eze RG -a two place side by side-200 Knots on 200 HP. A&P / pilot for over 30 years
Edge 513 Posted September 30, 2008 Posted September 30, 2008 Pull my leg again...no the other one... You are his Bro-in-law, or he's your wifes relation or something that you expressed back on dust's forum which is where I posted the question for flyers recommendations about the gear. Still waiting. That was when I was fiddling with the idea and had expressed my incredulity about JD's making people wait and holding their deposits with no delivery promises. I had insisted that he give me a firm date and I would send off my deposit. He would not.[i felt if I bought the gear- I could sell them if I changed my mind]. HE later would not even communicate with me. Now this was April of 07 NOT 08 we were all talking about this...and you said he was sending you your gear soon as you "had -wink-wink, the inside line". As for real people- Last I heard that Greg [neverquit] is still waiting and he said it had been 4 years as of last Spring. Incidentally, Steve bought his gear from a guy with a defunct build. He watched the waiting dance and didnt want any part of it. Now none of this is sour grapes..there has been behind the scenes talk of coming up with new/better oleo gear that is different and marketing it...[gee, with the current state of Infinity gear, who'd-a thought somebody might be eye-balling this idea].. but that's another story. Quote Self confessed Wingnut. Now think about it...wouldn't you rather LIVE your life, rather than watch someone else's, on Reality T.V.? Get up off that couch!!! =) Progress; Fuselage on all three, with outside and inside nearly complete. 8 inch extended nose. FHC done. Canard finished. ERacer wings done with blended winglets. IO540 starting rebuild. Mounting Spar. Starting strake ribs.
Crazycanuck Posted September 30, 2008 Author Posted September 30, 2008 I gotta say, that waiting anything longer than 6 months for something like this isn't really customer service. I don't think I could hold up such a significant project in my life waiting for someone else to get organized. Quote Crazy Canuck Toronto, Ontario, Canada Cozy MKIV #MK1536
TMann Posted September 30, 2008 Posted September 30, 2008 Pull my leg again...no the other one... You are his Bro-in-law, or he's your wifes relation or something that you expressed back on dust's forum which is where I posted the question for flyers recommendations about the gear.I think the quote you are referring to is when I said I would ask him about something when he came into town for HIS family reunion. I mentioned the twins bit to him last night over the phone. Ha ha haaaaaaaa....Please, as a courtesy to others who are waiting (just like me) do your checklist and get the facts first. Quote T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18 Velocity/RG N951TM Mann's Airplane Factory We add rocket's to everything! 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done
airnico Posted September 30, 2008 Posted September 30, 2008 thank you Lynn, good info from real experience:anyone can take his own conclusions..... Quote Roads? Where we're going we don't need roads. (Dr. Emmett Brown)
Big Steve Posted September 30, 2008 Posted September 30, 2008 I have bad news for you infinity gear lovers. Rough river had 0 infinity gear on planes that I saw and several with drybread style. Non of them tipped over or had trouble landing. Of course to get a pair of drybread retracts could be a long wait??? nobody is making them. Oh I forgot the answer is to put in retracts or vacum bag. Build on STeve Quote Steve Harmon Lovin Life in Idaho Cozy IV Plans #1466 N232CZ http://websites.expercraft.com/bigsteve/ Working on Chapter 19,21
Edge 513 Posted September 30, 2008 Posted September 30, 2008 I mentioned the twins bit to him last night over the phone. Ha ha haaaaaaaa.... Please, as a courtesy to others who are waiting (just like me) do your checklist and get the facts first. You two are yukking it up all right. Does JD give the 2500.00 deposit back, when people get tired of waiting? Not heard of that. The limp delivery facts speak for themselves, it's incredibly obvious to me. I have been mostly silent about the Infinity gear, but builders and prospective builders get all excited about it, and thats why I figured I would voice my observations from the past 3+ years of building & being on these forums. You mileage may vary. Maybe JD has a different agreement with those who he is catering to now. I dunno. Quote Self confessed Wingnut. Now think about it...wouldn't you rather LIVE your life, rather than watch someone else's, on Reality T.V.? Get up off that couch!!! =) Progress; Fuselage on all three, with outside and inside nearly complete. 8 inch extended nose. FHC done. Canard finished. ERacer wings done with blended winglets. IO540 starting rebuild. Mounting Spar. Starting strake ribs.
Crazycanuck Posted September 30, 2008 Author Posted September 30, 2008 I guess I don't really understand why it should take so long to fill an order. One would think that the machining work would be subcontracted. The parts look realatively simple from the pictures that I have seen. Is there a plans alternative that I builder could machine, or have machined, himself? It seems to me that this bridge must have been crosses before either with these aircraft or similar. Anyway, I guess sticking to the plans is yet again the most sensible course of action. Quote Crazy Canuck Toronto, Ontario, Canada Cozy MKIV #MK1536
TMann Posted September 30, 2008 Posted September 30, 2008 You don't have to go with the Infinity retracts. I seem to recall that Velocity was making their gear available for somewhere around 10-12 grand. Can't speak to how long you're going to wait. It might be real fast. Some folks here have been very vocal about critcizing Infinity without really knowing the facts. As far as I'm concerned it's just a distraction. I like the design and have spoken with others who have it (and, believe it or not, don't participate in this forum) and they seem to be very satisfied. The customer support has been great as anyone (who owns the gear) will atest to. That includes builders who have bought the gear from another owner or have bought a plane with the gear already installed.. JD was up front with me about the delivery timeframe and I accepted that. As far as cancelled orders not receiving a refund........ I've never heard of such a thing and to suggest such is damaging to the credibility of the author. Quote T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18 Velocity/RG N951TM Mann's Airplane Factory We add rocket's to everything! 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done
Edge 513 Posted September 30, 2008 Posted September 30, 2008 You don't have to go with the Infinity retracts. I seem to recall that Velocity was making their gear available for somewhere around 10-12 grand. Can't speak to how long you're going to wait. It might be real fast. >It was targeted as MUCH less than that...and it is yet to surface. Obviously NO ONE would pay that kind of money for RG gear for a Cozy. Heck, most builders are trying to scrape 1,500. bucks together for an electric noselift. I know Chris E. talked a bit about working with Velocity for some Cozy gear, but have not heard of its exact future.< Some folks here have been very vocal about critcizing Infinity without really knowing the facts. As far as I'm concerned it's just a distraction. I like the design and have spoken with others who have it (and, believe it or not, don't participate in this forum) and they seem to be very satisfied. The customer support has been great as anyone (who owns the gear) will atest to. That includes builders who have bought the gear from another owner or have bought a plane with the gear already installed.. >Again, no names of fliers using the gear, Usually anybody in the canard community is more than willing to coach others on the products and performance of what they are using. How about 10-15 names out of the hundreds that are supposed to be using the gear, since you and JD talk frequently. That would really help others investigating its use in their builds.< JD was up front with me about the delivery timeframe and I accepted that. As far as cancelled orders not receiving a refund........ I've never heard of such a thing and to suggest such is damaging to the credibility of the author. > Read my question again- I asked a question. I did not suggest it. Am I accurate in stating that there has never been a post or heard hanger/forum scuttle about what happens if somebody got tired of waiting.< >See my comments above... The whole I-RG gear thing is so fraught with people on each side of the fence, anybody who is entertaining the gear has got enough information to determine if waiting for it is agreeable to them. I am outta this conversation.< Quote Self confessed Wingnut. Now think about it...wouldn't you rather LIVE your life, rather than watch someone else's, on Reality T.V.? Get up off that couch!!! =) Progress; Fuselage on all three, with outside and inside nearly complete. 8 inch extended nose. FHC done. Canard finished. ERacer wings done with blended winglets. IO540 starting rebuild. Mounting Spar. Starting strake ribs.
Steve Innova Posted September 30, 2008 Posted September 30, 2008 You two are yukking it up all right. Does JD give the 2500.00 deposit back, when people get tired of waiting? Not heard of that. The limp delivery facts speak for themselves, it's incredibly obvious to me. JD returned my $2500 deposit after I purchased gear from another buyer. Quote
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