Infinity Retractable Main Gear

[Steve Innova]

JD was up front with me about the delivery timeframe and I accepted that. As far as cancelled orders not receiving a refund........ I've never heard of such a thing and to suggest such is damaging to the credibility of the author.

I seem to recall at one point you saying he'd promised you'd have it this summer.

[TMann]

JD returned my $2500 deposit after I purchased gear from another buyer.

Yeah ....... I told JD that I had bought your place in line for $20 but he didn't bite.

 

Actually he said I may have it yet this summer. He has 10 plates to be machined out of this run and mine is one of them. I'm a ways off from needing the gear so It's not holding me back any.

[Steve Innova]

After a 4 yr wait, I bought a set of unused gear from another builder. I asked for my deposit back and JD returned it.

 

This gear was the 2nd generation (i.e. improved) version, and is identical to the current version (3rd set of deliveries) that JD is/will be delivering.

 

I dissassembled one gear leg and have a few comments re: the design and build quality.

 

- I found two slivers of AL on the guide tube. The edges of the tube are sharp, and will need to be slightly chamfered/rounded over. On advice of a machine shop, I will do this myself, with emery paper.

- The inside ends of the slots in the guide tube show signs of chattering from the end mill. Again, on advice from a machine shop, I will smooth these chatter marks out with a dowl and emery paper.

- Removing the gear leg from the tube scratched the 0-rings. These will need to be replaced when I reassemble the gear.

- There were some rust spots inside of the lower gear leg tube (the inside surface is not a bearing surface, but the rust could contaminate the hydraulic fluid. I will remove it before reassemmbling)

 

Bottom Line: if you have these gear, you should probably dissessemble and inspect the insides, especially if they have been sitting for some time. Make sure that edges are chamfered, no sharp edges allowed! Hopefully JD has improved his QC since building this set.

 

Also. I've decided to elliminate a lot of complexity in the design by NOT compressing the struts prior to retraction. This is a source of many problems, as it allows any contaminants in the oleo tube hydraulic fluid to circulate throughout the system, eventually making their way into the retraction actuators and the hydraulic pump. You will have a more reliable system if the hydraulic pump only pumps fluid into the actuators, and not the oleo tube. Keep the oleo tube a sealed, closed system.

[Lynn Erickson]

After a 4 yr wait, I bought a set of unused gear from another builder. I asked for my deposit back and JD returned it.

 

This gear was the 2nd generation (i.e. improved) version, and is identical to the current version (3rd set of deliveries) that JD is/will be delivering.

 

I dissassembled one gear leg and have a few comments re: the design and build quality.

 

- I found two slivers of AL on the guide tube. The edges of the tube are sharp, and will need to be slightly chamfered/rounded over. On advice of a machine shop, I will do this myself, with emery paper.

- The inside ends of the slots in the guide tube show signs of chattering from the end mill. Again, on advice from a machine shop, I will smooth these chatter marks out with a dowl and emery paper.

- Removing the gear leg from the tube scratched the 0-rings. These will need to be replaced when I reassemble the gear.

- There were some rust spots inside of the lower gear leg tube (the inside surface is not a bearing surface, but the rust could contaminate the hydraulic fluid. I will remove it before reassemmbling)

 

Bottom Line: if you have these gear, you should probably dissessemble and inspect the insides, especially if they have been sitting for some time. Make sure that edges are chamfered, no sharp edges allowed! Hopefully JD has improved his QC since building this set.

 

Also. I've decided to elliminate a lot of complexity in the design by NOT compressing the struts prior to retraction. This is a source of many problems, as it allows any contaminants in the oleo tube hydraulic fluid to circulate throughout the system, eventually making their way into the retraction actuators and the hydraulic pump. You will have a more reliable system if the hydraulic pump only pumps fluid into the actuators, and not the oleo tube. Keep the oleo tube a sealed, closed system.

these are the tubes that we found broken twice. thats two sets. the machining of the slot at the top of the tube was very rough and on the second set installed by the manufacturer the slots had been squared off with a file and the cross file marks and the square end to the slot is where the crack started. we made new one out of chrome moly and noticed right away that the leg was a lot stiffer in rotation. with the aluminum tube you can twist it out of alignment quite easily with the steel it is much more solid. the broken tube resulted in two off runway excursions for us with tires tracks only inches away from one of those $ 4000 runway lights. I would suggest anyone that plans to fly with this gear have new ones made of chrome moly. by the way emery is not the thing to do on aluminum as it will imbed itself into the soft aluminum and keep sawing away at the plastic guides that rides in the slot. use a file and draw filing the surface is the best way and then polish with a polish wheel and rouge

[Crazycanuck]

So bottom line is that it isn't really a kit, there is alot of further work to be done to get it right. The more I think about it the more I think that I should just stick to the plans. I guess I should save all the fancy stuff for my second plane.

[Steve Innova]

these are the tubes that we found broken twice. thats two sets. the machining of the slot at the top of the tube was very rough and on the second set installed by the manufacturer the slots had been squared off with a file and the cross file marks and the square end to the slot is where the crack started. we made new one out of chrome moly and noticed right away that the leg was a lot stiffer in rotation. with the aluminum tube you can twist it out of alignment quite easily with the steel it is much more solid. the broken tube resulted in two off runway excursions for us with tires tracks only inches away from one of those $ 4000 runway lights.

 

I spoke with MATCO representatives at Oshkosh. They were very familiar with the Infinity gear, explained to me that in between the prototype and the production gear, they modified their axel design. As a result, the wheel hub moved outboard, putting excess torque on the guide tubes. Now as a result of this, you can order the original design axel direct from MATCO. (I have the part number for the original design axel at home -- I'll post it eventually) This puts the wheel right back on centerline with the guide tube, and should reduce torque on the tube.

 

I looked into making it out of chrome moly, but the the head of the AL tube (where it bolts to the trunion) and the guide tube are no longer separate parts bolted together, they are machined from one billet. So... I would need to also have a new top end to the guide tube made, in addition to the chrome moly guide tube. I'll see how flexible it is on the installed gear before deciding what to do.

[Waiter]

When I made the decission to install retracts, I was seriously looking at the Drybread ship set. This was in the same time period that Steve had his tragic accident. Shortly after, I got a line on someone who was interested in selling their Infinity ship set (they changed their mind). So, I drove to Texas and became the proud owner of a Version 1 ship set.

 

JD has been forthcoming with information, parts, and updates that need to be performed, i.e. pin installed to secure components, etc (all this is outlined on my web site)

 

During disassembly I noted the machine work on all components is very clean, no burrs or chaffing.

 

I elected to weld the side braces and guide tubes. This is a lot of work and I'm not sure I would do it again. During the Welding process, I think I gained confidence in the original "glue" method.

 

Regardless, A more correct way to do this would have been to disassemble these components, clean the adhesive, then reassemble and weld.

 

During my installation, I followed Lynns experience (Ortel's plane) with interest. I think the steel guide tube is a good idea. If someone is interested in putting together an order, Put me down for two.

 

If anyone else is interested, Please post here or start a new thread. If there's enough interest, maybe someone (Lynn) could cooridinate an order to their local machine shop.

 

NOTES - There is no need to compress the struts on a Coxy IV. The gear will retract without compressing the struts. This eliminates a failure mode.

 

If you install a fitting on the bottom of the gear (to compress the strut) you will need to replace the o-rings on next teardown, AFTER you clean up the burr on the inside of the strut.

 

I've documented all my findings to date:

 

http://www.iflyez.com/InfinityGear.shtml

 

Waiter

[TMann]

It was targeted as MUCH less than that...and it is yet to surface. Obviously NO ONE would pay that kind of money for RG gear for a Cozy. Heck, most builders are trying to scrape 1,500. bucks together for an electric noselift. I know Chris E. talked a bit about working with Velocity for some Cozy gear, but have not heard of its exact future.<

You're right. I misquoted the velocity retract price.

From their page:

Options (SE & XL models):

• Fastbuild Wings $13,000
• Fastbuild Fuselage $9,000
• Retract Gear $9,000

Here's the liink:

http://www.velocityaircraft.com/airplane-kit-price.html

[Steve Innova]

You're right. I misquoted the velocity retract price.

From their page:

Options (SE & XL models):

• Retract Gear $9,000

Be aware, this is probably the TOTAL price for all LG components. This includes wheels, brakes, tires, front nose-gear, all of which are not included with the Infinity purchase. Include those items and you'll find the price is almost identical to the Infinity gear.

[Edge 513]

Shot but missed...TMann;)

I wasnt talking about the Velocity gear...I was talking about the drybread- hybrid style gear that supposedly Chris E. and Velocity were working on for the Cozy.

Now the alternate oleo gear was talked about as having a 2-3 month lead time max, and being 6400. bucks.

Haven't heard [in my circle of communications]about either for quite a while.

[Lynn Erickson]

Shot but missed...TMann;)

I wasnt talking about the Velocity gear...I was talking about the drybread- hybrid style gear that supposedly Chris E. and Velocity were working on for the Cozy.

Now the alternate oleo gear was talked about as having a 2-3 month lead time max, and being 6400. bucks.

Haven't heard [in my circle of communications]about either for quite a while.

With todays material prices going up every day how could anyone quote a price and deliver a product 4 years later? thats not good business. and it won't work. it is reasonable to ask for a deposit to help defer some of the material costs but if you are waiting to collect enough orders to pay for all the production cost and that takes more then 90 days then you have to get the capital from somewhere ( like a bank ) so you can build and deliver the product. if it takes 4 years to to build and deliver any product would you not think that would hurt future sales. once you get that kind of reputation it will never go away. by the time the product is delivered at 4 year old prices the profit is gone. the increase in material and labor will eat up all the profit. is this not business 101. first close the deal ( it helps if you have a good reputation ) collect the money and deliver the product as fast as you can. if there was some competition this would never happen. people would buy more on availability then price. so what if you are cheeper if you don't deliver. in todays prices $9000 is a fare price for a complete RG system and if you want one that may be the price you will have to pay

[Lynn Erickson]

Shot but missed...TMann;)

I wasnt talking about the Velocity gear...I was talking about the drybread- hybrid style gear that supposedly Chris E. and Velocity were working on for the Cozy.

Now the alternate oleo gear was talked about as having a 2-3 month lead time max, and being 6400. bucks.

Haven't heard [in my circle of communications]about either for quite a while.

With todays material prices going up every day how could anyone quote a price and deliver a product 4 years later? thats not good business. and it won't work. it is reasonable to ask for a deposit to help defer some of the material costs but if you are waiting to collect enough orders to pay for all the production cost and that takes more then 90 days then you have to get the capital from somewhere ( like a bank ) so you can build and deliver the product. if it takes 4 years to to build and deliver any product would you not think that would hurt future sales. once you get that kind of reputation it will never go away. by the time the product is delivered at 4 year old prices the profit is gone. the increase in material and labor will eat up all the profit. is this not business 101. first close the deal ( it helps if you have a good reputation ) collect the money and deliver the product as fast as you can. if there was some competition this would never happen. people would buy more on availability then price. so what if you are cheeper if you don't deliver. in todays prices $9000 is a fare price for a complete RG system and if you want one that may be the price you will have to pay

[airnico]

.During my installation, I followed Lynns experience (Ortel's plane) with interest. I think the steel guide tube is a good idea. If someone is interested in putting together an order, Put me down for two.

 

If anyone else is interested, Please post here or start a new thread. If there's enough interest, maybe someone (Lynn) could cooridinate an order to their local machine shop.

 

why?is it so difficult to machine a tube like that?

seems like they're just slotted tubes.....

[Waiter]

Lynn (Ortel) has had experience with this. See what he thinks!

 

Waiter

[Cozy Girrrl]

I have it on good authority that the Cozy 540 gear based on the Velocity gear is on hold for the time being due to the Velocity company changing hands and the state of the economy.

The final version of the gear will have heavier gear legs than presently on Chris's plane (his were Drybread/LE legs) that will be usable on both the Cozy and LE.

 

These are big ticket items, I can see why this was placed on hold. It is very easy to get a gaggle of wannabees saying "oh yeah I want one" until you make a huge investment and then when you go looking for those builders all you hear is crickets

When people think you have what they want safely in inventory on your shelves they feel secure that when they get around to wanting it they can get it, in the mean time they will direct their dollars to their more immediate needs.

We invested about $25k in machined parts for the rotary engine mounts based on "firm comitments", not deposits. We have recovered about half that.

 

We still won't take people's money before we make an investment but we will certainly be very cautious where we put our capitol on future projects.

 

Regards, Chrissi & Randi

[Crazycanuck]

It is a difficult balance to manage inventory and backlog. I think that a 4 year backlog is more appropriate for an Airbus A380. Anyway, I am really surprised their isn't more of a standard established. Are there any certified gear systems that could be adapted?

 

It would be interesting to develop plans for retractable gear and then folks can get their own gear machined on their own schedule.

 

Has anybody on the site ever used www.emachineshop.com to have stuff machined?

[Cozy Girrrl]

Onsie twosie machining is fine for the home shop machinist who has all the time in the world and can only afford raw materials for one set. Once you get the engineering drawings all worked out for your parts take them to a machine shop for a reality check. You will typically pay for a full sheet or bar of the material regardless of how much you use, that is standard practice. And you will pay about $60/hr for machine work and head scratching whether the parts made to your drawings work or not the first time around. If you wish to have them properly plated it will typically set you back $200 minimum charge. Sometimes we have several lots of parts sitting on our shelves for months that we cannot sell until we have enough of them to satisfy the shop minimums, otherwise we would be forced to pass on the increased costs.

We had E-machineshop bid on several parts and they were higher than local shops.

In order to give the prices we do, make a living at it and remain competitive, we have to make many, sometimes a couple of hundred parts. A lot of the time is in sourcing the materials, writing the CNC code, ordering the cutting tools, picking up the tools, setting up the machines, getting quotes from vendors, running the parts to platers and picking them up. Notice we have not even said the part about machining the part yet. So a lot of time and effort go into preparing and setting up to make parts. Once the machine is set up and calibrated some trial parts are made to ensure -that-step- of the process is good then you get o run the parts. In 100 parts you may have 5 scrap, usually in the first few unless the PC glitches mid run. So if you need only a handful of parts you may have to make several more.

This is partially the reason we avoid "specials" for people unless we happen to have a break where we are not doing anything, which is rare. If we were to do the odd special part it is difficult to justify the disparity between the off the shelf price and the custom price at 2x to 10x.

Regards, Chrissi

[Steve Innova]

That said, there is nothing particularly "special" about the Infinity gear parts. A competant machinist could certainly make all these parts using traditional mill and lathe tools. Having access to a CNC machine would make the mounting plate plate, guide tube, and sissor arms easier.

 

Nico is rebuilding / reproducing a damaged set -- he could probably give a good update on cost.

[airnico]

Nico is rebuilding / reproducing a damaged set -- he could probably give a good update on cost.

I do not think it's a problem to reproduce the tubes: it's actually very easy, I'm going to do this job for my retract but still am undecided about the material.

cromoly vs inox vs 7075 aluminum.

cromoly is of course ok but the rust could contaminate the oil circuit.

inox should be ok but is expensive.

7075 al is in my garage, so I would have it for free but someone says it bends easily someonelse says his gear with aluminum tubes is certified beyond our needs.

who is right????

anyway the cost for me in italy is more or less 130/150 € for a pair of tubes + cost of material.

I think I can buy with 1€ the same things here that you buy with 1$ in USA but if you should pay 130€ to me to have the tubes it would be very expensive at the €/$ exchange of today, so it's probably unfaisible for you to have them manufactured in europe.

[Cozy Girrrl]

There are several parts of the folding side brace that have fussy geometry, even with the engineering drawings whoever made our first set did not fit together very well. Whether this was when the parts were machined or when they were soldered (yes, soldered) together we do not know but unless you are going to fully model this in 3D and go through the dynamics you might have some issues.

...Chrissi

[Edge 513]

Intriguing...what was soldered? You don't mean soldered instead of welded,do you?

[Cozy Girrrl]

Intriguing...what was soldered? You don't mean soldered instead of welded,do you?

I believe the term used was "furnace brazed" which is a soft low temp alloy like they sell you in the fly mart for torch soldering aluminum. Given enough surface area it may be ok for parts like the folding side brace mounts to the tube but I recently helped one builder locate an expert welder to fix his cracked solder job on the tube that goes through the main mounting plate, this part holds the trunion pin. I am very concerned with this and may yank our plates out and send them out to be welded properly. The part has to be completely stripped of powder coat, heated above the solder temp and blown out with an air jet. Any remaining material has to be ground off otherwise the solder pops and contaminates the tungsten, the welder described the bright flashes as probably being some zinc/magnesium alloy from the color and magnitude of the flashes.

I don't like glue (adhesive of any kind) or solder, holding mechanical parts,

I do not give a damn if they used it on the space shuttle or if Airbus has done it that way.

 

I'd like the p/n of the proper Matco axles to put the wheels on the C/L of the gear as well if anyone has it.

...Chrissi

[airnico]

I'd like the p/n of the proper Matco axles to put the wheels on the C/L of the gear as well if anyone has it.

...Chrissi

I would love to have it too!!

[airnico]

guys, nothing new about those Matco axles to put the wheels on the C/L of the gear??

[Cozy Girrrl]

No, really wish this could be resolved.

JD poo poo's it saying it is a non-issue, I see it as design creep due to a change by another vendor. More importantly braking and landing forces hammering the "internal scissors" due to thi unintended 1/2" mis-alignment. At least it is in favor of toe-in.

...Chrissi & Randi