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Len,

 

I just reread your post and noticed....

 

I am truly curious, because if it is a better option, then I want to pursue that instead. I haven't even gotten to the ceiling, where I expect to loose the most heat

 

Spray-in foam is equally applicable and effective for use in the ceiling as well. Indeed with the "attic" area above, the foam can be laid in very thick and incredible R-values can be obtained. The critical issue here is to make sure that the foam doesn't contact the underside of the roof sheathing and block air flow. This can be insured by first installing "rafter vents" which ensure an air channel under the sheathing near the sofit where a thick insulation layer might interfere with ventilation. When I did my dad's oversized double garage a number of years ago with a double layer of bat insulation these rafter vents were less than $2.00 a piece so they aren't a significant expense. Once this is done you can have spray foam applied to almost any depth you choose (can afford) or have a thick layer of cellulose blown in over the sprayfoam that is in the truss lower stringer cavities.

 

I recognize that there are extra costs involved here but considering the time and effort that will be spent in your "hanger" and the comfort, enjoyment and subsequent improved build quality I think the added cost is well justified.

 

Also consider installing some strategically placed power outlets and adjustable task spotlights in the ceiling, and if you plan to use air tools an air "ring main" in the garage walls before completng insulation and drywalling. I haven't built an aircraft (yet) but I have done many hours of car maintenance and restoration for my brother and have begged him to update his garage like this - so far to no avial. I know I could work faster if he did this and I believe better as well. A comfortable, conveniently laid out, well equiped and safe workplace is a good workplace and inherently good work comes out of such hangers and shops.

 

Cheers

 

Carl

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The best stud cavity insulation to use is the spray-in expanding foam insulation. If you fill the stud cavities with this foam, level it off and then add the 1" extruded styrofoam panel in front of the wall studs and spray-in foam you'll be able to heat your hanger in the dead of winter with little more than a candle so to speak.

Carl, thanks for the suggestion, but help me understand this. Do I spray it in, then take the sheetrock down?

 

My plumber friend is supposed to take a look at my garage tomorrow, to see how much material is needed to install my new natgas heater. He previously mentioned "blow-in insulation".

 

I don't need to take all the sheet rock down, just 2 areas:

  • where the builders did a horrific job, and
  • in the area where I noticed a foul smell in the summer
I'm getting closer to being back in business...

Jon Matcho :busy:
Canard Zone Member & Administrator
Now:  Rebuilding Quickie Tri-Q200 N479E
Long-term:  Building a Cozy Mark IV

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Carl, thanks for the suggestion, but help me understand this. Do I spray it in, then take the sheetrock down?

...

Jon,

 

You will need to take the drywall (sheetrock) down before using this spray-in expanding foam :sad: . Once it has cured, takes about 5 minutes :thumbsup: , the excess is leveled off with the studs and you can then finish the wal :D l. I had recommended a sheet of extruded styrofoam insulation between the spray-in foam/studs and the drywall to add that much more insulation and most of all eliminate the "thermal bridges" that your furring strips would be.

 

For the areas that you won't be taking down the drywall (sheetrock) there is a slower acting version of the spray-in foam that is "poured" through a hole in the sheet rock - one hole per stud cavity high on the wall. The repair is then just a relatively small hole and in these areas just as Mark said

 

It's much easier to fix the small hole at the bottom and top every 16" than to rehang, retape, and resand all that sheetrock. ...

 

I recommend the "pour" foam over blow-in insulation for these areas because it has all the same properties as the spray-in foam; completely fills the stud cavity, seals up the cavity to eliminate drafts and gives a much higher insulation performance than an equivalent "bat insulation" R-value.

 

Cheers

 

Carl

 

And just in case anyone is wondering no I don't have a financial interest in any of these products. I just believe that they are vastly superior to bat insulation and are well worth any cost increases that they may represent.

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Jon,

 

If you don't take the drywall down, make sure you check for firebreaks in the wall cavities. Luckily my garage doesn't have sheetrock on the walls, but it does have two firebreaks per vertical section. This alone is making the spray-in type look more and more attractive, as I'd have to cut the fiberglass for every freakin' one of these.

 

Firebreaks may not be typical of open garage walls (like mine), but if the building codes in your area mandate them for enclosed walls, you may have to deal with them. A firebreak is a 2x4 that is placed horizontally within the cavity, to prevent or slow convective air flow within the wall, in case of a fire.

 

-- Len


-- Len Evansic, Cozy Mk. IV Plans #1283

Do you need a Flightline Chair, or other embroidered aviation accessory?

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I'm glad we're talking shop here, because thats still my main project now too. I've been enjoying installing all the wiring for lighting and electrical outlets the past several weekends, and insulation should be coming up soon.

I installed painted metal roofing on my new shop. The floor and wall studs had all seen quite a bit of wet weather before the roof was put on, and therefore as the wood dried out I was seeing quite a bit of freezing condensation on the underside of the metal in December. When the sun came up it would drip on my nice plywood floor!! The wood must be dried out now because now there is no condensation.

 

My question is what should I use as a moisture barrier to keep condensation from forming on the metal next winter when I have a warm shop? I will have an unheated "attic" area. I need to keep the humidity from the heater out of the attic area. Should I use plastic sheeting? Where should I put the barrier? I am guessing on the heated side of the insulation... if I put it on the cold side then I may get condensation on the sheeting. What do you guys think? Shop construction truly is fun!!


Andrew Anunson

I work underground and I play in the sky... no problem

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My question is what should I use as a moisture barrier to keep condensation from forming on the metal next winter when I have a warm shop? I will have an unheated "attic" area. I need to keep the humidity from the heater out of the attic area. Should I use plastic sheeting? Where should I put the barrier? I am guessing on the heated side of the insulation... if I put it on the cold side then I may get condensation on the sheeting. What do you guys think? Shop construction truly is fun!!

 

Andrew,

 

A good vapour barrier is both a fundamental requirement and is readily available at home improvement stores. Indeed it is required in all building codes although it can take several forms. Most commonly it comes as rolls of polyethene sheet, 6 mil thickness is the best of this variety but it can be purchased in lesser thicknesses. Proper instalation would be between your ceiling sheetrock (drywall) and the bottom stringer of the truss/insulation.

 

When installing vapour barrier make sure you use a good technical tape (eg Tuck Tape) developed for this application to join and seal all seems. This is one of the few applications the old standby duct tape doesn't "cut-it". You also need to be sure any electrical fixtures in the ceiling, lights, power outlets such as those for garage door openers, etc are properly sealled. Specially shaped polyethene "vapour barrier boxes" are available in a variety of sizes and shapes for this purpose. They too have to be seal taped to the main vapour barrier sheet to give a continuous protective sheet.

 

Finally make sure you leave at least 6 inches extra at all the walls so the ceiling vapour barrier will "hang down" the walls so it can then be seal taped to the wall vapour barrier to develop a moisture tight "cocoon" around your shop.

 

Doing the job properly is a few hours of uncomfortable work toiling over your head but it will pay off handsomely in a more comfortable shop that will last for the life of your project and then indefinitely double as a general workshop or garage on the day your canard flys.

 

Cheers and Good Luck

 

Carl

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Levansic wrote:

 

Luckily my garage doesn't have sheetrock on the walls, but it does have two firebreaks per vertical section. This alone is making the spray-in type look more and more attractive, as I'd have to cut the fiberglass for every freakin' one of these.

 

Len,

 

All those firebreaks combined will become a pretty substantial thermal bridge and contribute to an increased loss of heat compared to a fire-break free stud cavity. Does your local code still require them? If not seriously consider removing them, a sawsall with a metal cutting blade will make quick work of them. (Many jursidictions have realized that firebreaks, while basically a good idea, really weren't very effective when they themselves were constucted from a combustible material.)

If you can't legally remove them then your foil backed insulation or a sheet of extruded styrofoam on top of the studs.sprayfoam insulation will be especialy valuable in re-couping insulation performance and overal R-value that the firebreaks are compromising. Drywalling over it all will give you a good fire barrier - unfortunately the worst does sometimes happen!

 

Cheers

 

Carl

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You also need to be sure any electrical fixtures in the ceiling, lights, power outlets such as those for garage door openers, etc are properly sealled. Specially shaped polyethene "vapour barrier boxes" are available in a variety of sizes and shapes for this purpose. They too have to be seal taped to the main vapour barrier sheet to give a continuous protective sheet.

Carl, Since my electrical boxes are already installed, with wiring and outlets, I am interested in an alternate method to seal the electrical boxes in the ceiling. Lowes sells an outlet sealer that has the same shape as the plastic outlet cover. This sealer is made of "fire retardent plastic foam", and is designed to be installed between the outlet and the outlet cover. Do you think this product could help? Thanks, Andrew


Andrew Anunson

I work underground and I play in the sky... no problem

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Since my electrical boxes are already installed, with wiring and outlets, I am interested in an alternate method to seal the electrical boxes in the ceiling. Lowes sells an outlet sealer that has the same shape as the plastic outlet cover. This sealer is made of "fire retardent plastic foam", and is designed to be installed between the outlet and the outlet cover. Do you think this product could help

 

 

Andrew,

 

The foam sealers you have seen are primarily sold as a draft stops and for the most part they are quite good at that. If you install them the shop will be closer to weather tight, it will be marginally warmer and less expensive to heat, but as a vapour barrier however these inserts are pretty deficient.

 

It is unfortunate this discussion didn't predate your wiring instalation.

 

Are you comited to bat insulation or is the Spray foam still an opton for you? If you use the spray foam it is an effective vapour barrier and depending on local codes you may be allowed to use it without the polyethelene sheet vapour barrier. Even if you are legally required to install a sheet vapour barrier the spray-in foam would provide more than adequate vapour barrier protection around your electrical boxes.

 

If you are commited to bat insulation perhaps your best bet at this time is to get some of the foam insulation/vapour barrier cans, such as "Great Stuff" or "Expands Alot", and use it to insulate and vapour seal around your electrical boxes. Just use this around the boxes, trim it flush with the studs when it cures and then you can put up your sheet vapour barrier and either attach it to the foamed areas with either a sealing tape (Tuck Tape or equivalent) or a silicone sealant such as "accousti-seal". Accousti-seal is black "gooey" silicone polymer specially formulated to adhere to polyethelene. (Be careful with Accousti-seal though, squeeze out a minimum bead and be sure not to get it on anything other than the vapour barrier, stud faces and foam that is being sealed because it never cures totally dry so if you touch it or get it on anything else it will end up absolutely everywhere!) Your foam inserts would then be "icing on the cake" to seal up your shop.

 

Hope this helps

 

Carl

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I FINALLY managed to get my shop setup well enough to do some building. My walls still are not insulated and there are still not enough outlets, but I am building.

 

Last night I tore into my upper longerons with a Dremel and a sanding drum after seeing an excess of shiny spots from the excess epoxy. My sides are jigged up and ready to go.

 

It's fun to listen to the reactions of visitors when they see these parts (longerons, instrument panel, etc.) and ask, "Did you buy those pieces from the kit?"

 

I'm trying to find more time for the project at this point... no TV, early to bed, more efficient lifestyle, ... anything that helps.


Jon Matcho :busy:
Canard Zone Member & Administrator
Now:  Rebuilding Quickie Tri-Q200 N479E
Long-term:  Building a Cozy Mark IV

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I FINALLY managed to get my shop setup well enough to do some building...but I am building.

 

 

Good, go at it!

 

I'm trying to find more time for the project at this point... no TV, early to bed, more efficient lifestyle, ... anything that helps.

Try working on till 2:30 in the morning.

 

Glad to hear you're making progress. I shaped the fuselage today. It looks really good with the corners shaped.:cool: I'm look forward to installing the antennas next.


Carlos Fernandez

AeroCanard FG

Plans #206

Chp. 13

aerocanard.kal-soft.com

Sales & Support

GRT Avionics

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Try working on till 2:30 in the morning.

I've done that, but that only seems to work if I take the following morning "off". I'm going to try something different...

 

I shaped the fuselage today. It looks really good with the corners shaped.:cool: I'm look forward to installing the antennas next.

You go! I'll try to catch up...

Jon Matcho :busy:
Canard Zone Member & Administrator
Now:  Rebuilding Quickie Tri-Q200 N479E
Long-term:  Building a Cozy Mark IV

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I had to take the weekend "off" to attend my 13th wedding anniversary. :) Yardwork also got the better part of my free time... I'm going to have to astroturf the lawn, or something, to make more time.

 

I have my sides ready for the longerons to be glassed in. The only concern I have is to set a perfectly straight line between them. I plan on using the 7/8" spacers per plans, but verified to be perfectly straight using a cheap laser line/level that I have on order from www.harborfreight.com.

 

I'll keep y'all posted...


Jon Matcho :busy:
Canard Zone Member & Administrator
Now:  Rebuilding Quickie Tri-Q200 N479E
Long-term:  Building a Cozy Mark IV

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Jon,

 

You're being way too careful. It doesn't matter if the space between the longerons on the two SEPARATE sides are equal all the way down. The longerons just need to be level with the top edge of the foam sides. As soon as you finish glassing them, you'll separate the sides and all your work to make sure the two sides were exactly 7/8" apart will be irrelevant. Just make sure when you install the sides & bulkheads that your longerons are level with each other.

 

Those laser levels are only accurate to about 1" over 50 ft, at best. The beam spreads.

 

When attempting to make parrellel lines, squares, rectangles, or right angles, you'll do MUCH BETTER using a measuring tape and this old formula from grade school: a2+b2=c2

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Thanks for the feedback, but I'm still looking for my longerons to be as straight and as symetric as possible. I'm not looking for atomic precision, but I do want a solid reference.

 

Just happened to read a post today where someone's fuse was all twisted up.

 

I'll let go in other areas...


Jon Matcho :busy:
Canard Zone Member & Administrator
Now:  Rebuilding Quickie Tri-Q200 N479E
Long-term:  Building a Cozy Mark IV

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Also, there is no magic to the 7/8". You probably have some leftover lumber laying around that is 3/4". Nothing wrong with using it.

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Thanks Ron... already figured on that.

 

What I SHOULD have done was space the forms by 3/4" (or whatever) initially (which I did), but also when the foam was placed down. That's where things got a bit out of whack. The forms are perfect, but the foam is not, so what I'm going to do is to mount the longerons to match the form, and sand off the extra foam after I pop the sides off.


Jon Matcho :busy:
Canard Zone Member & Administrator
Now:  Rebuilding Quickie Tri-Q200 N479E
Long-term:  Building a Cozy Mark IV

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Actually, I recommend that (doing one side at a time), especially if working by yourself. Doing both sides at the same time amounts to approximately four times the front seat area, and the contour is not flat like the seat back. You will spend a lot of time getting the cloth to follow the contours without bubbles. It can be overwhelming to do both sides at once if you are not prepared.

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After having done both sides WITH a helper for the glasswork, I would only recommend glassing one side at a time. Saving glass is the plans motivation, but probably not worth it IMO.

 

I don't see any benefit in NOT doing everything else "at the same time" (you can't really do anything at the same time). In fact, having both on the table, side by side, allows you to visually confirm your lines of symmetry, etc.

 

My laser line level didn't come in yet, so I'll resort to a good ol' taught string if it doesn't get here before the coming weekend. No big deal -- I just need to verify the longerons to be straight and not snaking their way up and down fore-to-aft.


Jon Matcho :busy:
Canard Zone Member & Administrator
Now:  Rebuilding Quickie Tri-Q200 N479E
Long-term:  Building a Cozy Mark IV

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Jon,

Here is a pic of my "set up" Notice the 1/2 Fridge and 1/2 Freezer, good for Cokes or Beer mind you under the table with the shopvac in the middle, it makes it easy to vacume and clean up with it already pluged in and ready to go just have to hit the button.

As for the Pegboard you can see I have most of my Hand Tools on it, as well as all my levels and yard Stick together. I even have the epoxy box on the table since I made it big enough. My BD Scissors are there on the top as well as gloves, and pens and pencils. I like everything to be semetrical so I put all metric on one side and Standard( English ) on the other so they would not get confused. I hope the Pic helps Also I have Trash cans on each end next to the Rag Bag. I felt a big relief after I got my peg board up. It makes a lot of difference when you think about it. Easy access to your tools makes for a happy builder. Hope the pics help.

post-432-141090153767_thumb.jpg

post-432-141090153773_thumb.jpg

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Nice looking setup... makes me want to throw up another pegboard or two. I have a bunch of tools in one of those tray carts, but I like the pegboard idea. I could use a fridge for company, upgraded hotbox, clothbox (I don't have one), and generally improved organization. I'll post some updated pics on my Web site for critique when I get a round to it.

 

I'm just wondering what the bell is for, and whether those are big @ss bullets on the table? What kind of crazy builder are you?! :)


Jon Matcho :busy:
Canard Zone Member & Administrator
Now:  Rebuilding Quickie Tri-Q200 N479E
Long-term:  Building a Cozy Mark IV

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I'm just wondering what the bell is for, and whether those are big @ss bullets on the table? What kind of crazy builder are you?! :)

Jon, I guess you haven't seen the last CSA, where they did the snippet on the "50 Caliber in the Nose" mod.:D

"I run with scissors."

Cozy MKIV N85TT

Phase One Testing

http://home.earthlink.net/~jerskip

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Jon, I guess you haven't seen the last CSA, where they did the snippet on the "50 Caliber in the Nose" mod.:D

Ah, just checked... the "ARES mod"... ("I want that.")

post-386-141090153782_thumb.jpg


Jon Matcho :busy:
Canard Zone Member & Administrator
Now:  Rebuilding Quickie Tri-Q200 N479E
Long-term:  Building a Cozy Mark IV

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Well, after a chastisment by my better half about my spelling in my previous post I will be more careful typing. As for the Big Bullets, first, they are Blanks. Second they are for a Browning M-2 .50, Third, I wondered if anyone would notice.

Now the Bell has a two fold job. The following comments might induce more conversation. The First thing it is for is the " Parts Complete" bell, when a part is completed the bell gets rung. For example, I finished the Heat Duct and brace once it is installed I get to ring the bell. We had a similar concept in Iraq, some one sent us a "Dancing Hampster" named Sgt. Scruffy. When you push the button Sgt. Scruffy would sing "Cassions go Rolling along" it gave us a good sense of acomplishment,.....Oh we would only let Sgt. Scruffy Sing when we caught the bad guy ( Terrorist, Al Quida, ....ect....) sooooooo in honor of all the GOOD things that we accomplished I have enacted the Bell Ringing Policy.

The other purpose is that I can ring it if I need an emergency hand or helper. ie help....and help now. All of these term have been agreed upon with all principle participants. Hey Guys enjoy the build, I will have a new Hobby specific addition soon. Stay tuned for more info..........Also I thought about a nose that look a little like this and I also found this piece of equipment that I might be able to install.......he he he...... Item

Item Description : A-1 Norden bomb sight, brand new in original shipping container, excellent condition & investment $ 1450

post-432-141090153784_thumb.jpg

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