DeltaHawk Diesel Engine

[goatherder]

Well, heres the thing: There are entirely TOO MANY LAWYERS in this country for a small company like that to risk releasing something like a brand new aircraft engine until they have every last little bug worked out and they've tested the thing to death. (maybe not the best choice of words)

 

One engine failure and the dead pilot's wife's lawyer sues their a$$es off and now they are out of business. It doesn't matter how good their idea was.

 

I'm guessing that this is what they are trying to avoid.

 

If you're selling a critical product (like an aero engine) and you discover some significant design flaw at the last minute then you owe it to everybody - especially your customers - to delay release of your product until you get the problems resolved. Even if you already have your customers' money.

 

Better to make them wait and piss them off than give them something that might kill them.

 

So says I.

[steve]

it looks like the N# can go on any plane.......(see 210 below)

 

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Flight Details

Altitude: 11,600 ft Radio Call: N211JP

Speed: 128 kts Aircraft: C210/T Cessna Aircraft Centurion 210

 

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Departed: OPF OPA- LOCKA EXECUTIVE

Departure Time: 08/31/2008 01:38 PM EDT (1738Z)

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[CBarber]

Ok, I can't resist, but blaming lawyers for lawsuit ABUSE, is like blaming guns for murder. Someone had to pick up the gun and shoot. In your case, the WIDOW....you know, the person with a DEAD spouse.....AND, should your really want someone to BLAME, you gotta put that on JURORS, IMAO...they are the ones that actually choose the outcome. The winning lawyer just made a more persuasive (I did not say better) argument...exactly as he/she should.

 

I do not think that Deltahawks delays are sole based on fear of litigation. Perhaps, maybe, they just want a well develped product. If they get that, hopefully the concern of lawsuites is minimized. Remember, frivolous lawsuites are already illegal. However, as we know, that does not prevent some from perusing them and this in itself can be very expensive.

 

I too am appauled when a jury delivers a verdict that blames a manufacturer as responsible for a part that they know did not fail...simply due to "deep pockets.

 

As a lawyer I will not just allow the misguieded commentary. I do not expect to change your mine....but I will fight to the death for your right to be wrong:) . Lawyer bashing has become much too cavalier as of late, I am dissappointed at the lazy thinking from which it comes.

 

I am certain, you do not mean to think in this simple of terms. YES, I am a lawyer and proud of the fact, even though I transitioned to a career as a cop a few years ago to fullfill my other career ambition/dream. I am proud of both and find them rewarding.

 

FWIW.

 

All the best,

 

Cpl Christopher Barber, JD

[Arbiter]

If Deltahawk has UAV orders (Presumably they have shipped) then they have a product that should be working fine. Small UAV companies can't afford to screw up the powerplant selection when in their infancy. There may be many reasons why they chose Deltahawk, but I don't believe they would choose a powerplant they think may not pan out. A good engine development program takes this amount of time (And then a very willing launch customer ) and there are always MANY MANY changes on the test stand before the engine flies, and then MANY MANY more changes until it's released. I am glad that they keep at it and I am confident they will get it right in the end, which should be soon!

 

-Chris

[Phil Kriley]

The problem - as a prospective customer - is the definition of "soon"...

 

It would be nice to see a timeline of what needs to be done, with check-offs as those items are completed. This would give customers and potential customers a "warm fuzzy" in that they can actually see progress.

 

I'd LOVE to put the 200 hp diesel in my plane! But I don't have the skills to be a guinea pig - working out all of the issues involved with installing a new engine. I'd be in the same boat as the folks who are opting for auto engine conversions. I have neither the skill set nor patience for "tinkering".

 

I'd say that there is no chance I'll be able to buy a DeltaHawk deisel for my plane when the time comes.

 

But then again, at the rate I'm progressing we may have a cold fusion option by the time I'm ready for an engine...

[Terry]

Ok, I can't resist, but blaming lawyers for lawsuit ABUSE, is like blaming guns for murder. Someone had to pick up the gun and shoot. In your case, the WIDOW....you know, the person with a DEAD spouse.....AND, should your really want someone to BLAME, you gotta put that on JURORS, IMAO...they are the ones that actually choose the outcome. The winning lawyer just made a more persuasive (I did not say better) argument...exactly as he/she should.

 

I do not think that Deltahawks delays are sole based on fear of litigation. Perhaps, maybe, they just want a well develped product. If they get that, hopefully the concern of lawsuites is minimized. Remember, frivolous lawsuites are already illegal. However, as we know, that does not prevent some from perusing them and this in itself can be very expensive.

 

I too am appauled when a jury delivers a verdict that blames a manufacturer as responsible for a part that they know did not fail...simply due to "deep pockets.

 

As a lawyer I will not just allow the misguieded commentary. I do not expect to change your mine....but I will fight to the death for your right to be wrong:) . Lawyer bashing has become much too cavalier as of late, I am dissappointed at the lazy thinking from which it comes.

 

I am certain, you do not mean to think in this simple of terms. YES, I am a lawyer and proud of the fact, even though I transitioned to a career as a cop a few years ago to fullfill my other career ambition/dream. I am proud of both and find them rewarding.

 

FWIW.

 

All the best,

 

Cpl Christopher Barber, JD

 

You are right CBarber

I see this as a 5 point failure

1. The people that are not willing to accept the responsibility and consequences of their actions.

2. The lawyers that will litigate for any cause if they make money at it. Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should.

3. Judges that will listen to this crap. They can and have dismissed frivolous litigation.

4. Defendants that will settle out of court "because it is cheaper".

5. The last and most tragic THE PEOPLE. The juries don't under stand that these judgments cost us all in the end.

If there is negligence then by all means hold the guilty accountable.

All of life has some risk. Just because someone takes more risk than they should doesn’t mean someone else should pay.

[TMann]

I don't have a horse in this race but I will say this:

 

After watching Mistral and the steps they have undergone to certify the G300, it appears to be a slow process. To try and offer an engine that is not certified limits your market too much in my opinion.

 

The best of both worlds would be to have a certified engine and offer an uncertified as an option for the experimental market such as Lycoming has done.

 

It takes a lot of bank to achieve something like this. The UAV market seems to be ideal in many ways. No pilots die and the customer has deep pockets.

[TMann]

As a side note:

I'm wondering just how close Mistral is to actually delivering a product. I think that the folks on Fly Rotary are accomplishing more.

 

I found a guy in EU that is building an RV-10 that is using the G300 engine. It seems that even if you are chunking out that kind of cash, delivery is still a problem. Here is a link to his comments:

[Edge 513]

Not to fling poo, Tman..but his closing remarks say that with the past setbacks and still missing ECU's, he hoped to be flying April 09.

...and that after he needed to ship the engine back for "updates".

What the friggin samhill is a "update"?

 

I gotta say that I envy the fewer parts of a hamster spinner, but you guys definitely get the optimism award due to all the handwringing. The guys at FlyRotary are the kind of guys that put us on the moon. [never say die] Glad you folks are out there![wheres the clapping hands / applause emoticon to place here?]

[TMann]

No argument there.

 

I'm amazed at the amount of money they have thrown at this compared to the results. Then you have guys like Tracy cranking out a working ECU and flying the solution at the same time.

 

 

Q: What's the definition of an expert?

A: It's the guy from out-of-town.

 

Maybe we can consider Mistral a viable alternative once they have as many hours on one of their engines as Perry & Tracy do.

[Edge 513]

Well, I wish them all well.

Anybody punking down their own serious R+D cash and team effort and time, with dreams to boot...deserves a "good on ya".

[Spodman]

The best of both worlds would be to have a certified engine and offer an uncertified as an option for the experimental market such as Lycoming has done...

Yes. I understand the original DeltaHawk model was to start producing experimental engines and use that to fund certification. The reason it hasn't worked is not so much to do with lawyers, but more they don't want to have two significantly differently supported engines out there.

 

Steve. Mate. Your most detailed and comprehensive post, and I have no idea what your are on about:confused: :confused:

[emteeoh]

Steve. Mate. Your most detailed and comprehensive post, and I have no idea what your are on about:confused: :confused:

Oh good. I thought it was just me.

[Edge 513]

Guys. Steve was just working on downing the brew from the bottom of the still, and it gets pretty potent down there. He'll catch up to reality pretty soon.

That was more words than Steve used all last year.

...at least words that were spelled write!!

[Lynn Erickson]

Its OK Steve I got it. the aircraft that called out in the position report was N211PJ which is the number of the velo with the diesel and they called it a C210. there is a c210 that is N210JP so it is most likely a miss understood radio call.

don't worry Steve, they will catch up some day

[Edge 513]

New news forwarded from the Canrad mailing list. Deltahawk is ALIVE!!!

On their Firewall forward list the have a link to specifically a Firewall backwards assembly with everything included for the CozyIV. Thats in the works!

Before ya'll get yer Sunday best on and your once a week shave, be sure a load your pockets with lots of greenbacks. The package costs about 65k.

Ouchhhhh.

 

I think they are trying to take Theilert's old place in the marketplace.

But it is nice they will be willing to sell to Cozy's as well as Velocity's. Theilert wasnt doing that.

[goatherder]

65 thousand dollars - for a little engine to shove a little airplane. What are they, 200 hp? Thats dikking refukkulous.

 

Where is their market at that price? Hell, I wouldn't buy one (even if I could afford it)...and I'm a pretty serious fan of diesel engines.

 

I am so NOT a fan of overpriced crap...no matter how cool it is. They can keep it. I'd spend 10 or 15 grand for an engine and spend the other 50 on...oh, I don't know...maybe fuel? And also maybe the rent, food, tires, beer,socks, bread, spark plugs, hookers and other miscellaneous expenses people incur on the way thru life.

 

65 grand. A guy better bring along a box of Kotex if he does any business with those people.

[Jack Morrison]

It was posted in the Oct Sport Aviation magazine at 62,500.00, for 180 hp to altitude 180 and 70% to 300. Don't everyone jump in line at once. Thats expensive.

 

Jack

[SAF_Zoom]

It is expensive but it's a firewall back package... so you get every thing you need and its all NEW... not USED or an incomplete package...

 

Mayby in a couple of years we can get one cheaper with say 1,000 hours on it or a prop strike or two...

[Edge 513]

Goat.

Hang onnnn doood! Chill.

I wish I could hand you my meds but I cant.

Before I was informed of the price, I was reading their blurb, thinking. "ohh hey thats cool NO EI...THAT will be cheaper. Ohhh, hey... No FI, SIMPLER...Thats gonna be CHEAPER... No valves, thats gonna be Cheaper, this is sounding pretty cool. Oh they wanna sell the mount and the starter, and the alternator is all in one package.....Better buying power in a package = cheaper. COOL.

So I left the website thinking well, I bet its still going to be priced like an Eggenfelter[sp] subaroo setup even though everything is simpler. Thats at 34K plus the mount...say, 35k. That would be too bad- Cozy builders will have a cow at paying that...so much for the diesel in a Cozy idea.

Then Bob sent me the email. ^%65,000.$$!! And I thought wow, those boys are up in the night. Until they have a certificated engine, [whicj most experimental builders wont pay for anyway] they are smoking some serious crack. But maybe they are not delusional, maybe they really feel it is first a European powerplant solution, or experimental-wise maybe the RV hoards will want them to go with their 95,000. Chelton EFIS' [man thats a crazy vendor as well IMHO]. I dont know. Turbo normalizing sounds great for high cruise, but it doesnt pull you off the ground when you need/want it. I could see them trying to justify that price on a turboed 300hp unit but 180-200hp, but it isnt.

They have some bright people their, so obviously this makes sense to somebody.

Flying in Euro land seems to demand a diesel, maybe they think that that market is also going to be demanded in China. However given the lack of regard for environmentalism in China I dont know.

 

I am also amused by the 2000 TBO perception of EXP builders who are reluctant to buy a 1000 hour 540 because it will cost a percieved "LOT of money" to overhaul it when it hits the magic #. First, most guys fly less than 100 hours per year and second; I am rebuilding mine for about 8-10 grand. If so, a guy can fly the typical next 10 years on an $15,000 engine, and if at that next 10 year point it makes sense to go to a diesel, you can do it. Oh yea, NOBODY but the manuf can do the rebuild on the DeltaHawk, and its a for sure, NOW, price of 15 grand. Wanna bet it will be more expensive 10 years from now? Another ouchhh, for a four cylinder power plant. But again 2000 hours at 100-200 hours of flight time=10 to 20 years. They do claim some amazing savings. Just on spark plugs for instance!! Yow.

[Phil Kriley]

I'm really dissappointed in the price. I'd have been willing to pay a premium, but not that much. I'd have been willing to part with half that much.

 

$62+k - no way.

[goatherder]

Yeah, its a cool powerplant. I especially like the compressed air start - where you can pump it up by hand if you're out in the boonies. If I remember right there are no electronics or really electrics to make the thing run. But for 65 grand it better be cool and innovative. Hell, for 65 grand it ought to take out the trash, change its own oil and give me a B&0#J*% at 20000ft.

 

I think there are better alternatives. Mr Spencer has the right idea. 10 years, 500 hrs and "no appreciable wear". And of course there's that 260hp. Oh, and the 200mph cruise at a loafing 2700rpm. Not to mention the 250mph top speed. Oh, yeah...parts availability - I can get anything I need here in town at Cut Rate Auto Parts.

[goatherder]

I'm off to the Bering Sea for a while to drag up some rent money. Good luck, keep on building and don't be doing any crashing.