DiscoveryIsland Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Plans #370 Cozy Mk IV currently on Chapter 8, but lost Plans Section II book and some M plans in recent house flood (our pipes sprang a leak at night). I had the plans on a lower shelf that got wet. Does anyone have the section II book that they can spare? I have the wings and canard complete, but the book I am missing now, covers the strake and canopy sections I have to complete. I would appriciate any suggestions as to how to aquire what I have lost, without having to purchase another set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David A. C. Orr Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 Why not send the wrecked ones into Spruce and ask for a clean set. Beagle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiscoveryIsland Posted March 2, 2008 Author Share Posted March 2, 2008 I purchased tub from other builder and Spruce will not recongnize my plans #370 or allow me to register with them unless I purchase the plans again, from them. When I tell them that others have bought kits and re-registared with them, they say that is not true, because it is against their policy. So.., unless I want to shell out big bucks for nothing, I am asking if there are any lonely plans sitting out there, I could use them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mplafleur Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 What do you get from them if you shell out another $500? Nothing. Of what benefit is it of you? None. They'll still sell you the parts. Use the set of plans you have, and party on. Woops! I missed the first post. You need a copy of some plans? I made an extra copy of my plans when I got them. You can have the copy of Book II that I made. PM me. Quote Mike LaFLeur - Cozy MkIV #1155N68ML Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpolenek Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 When I tell them that others have bought kits and re-registared with them, they say that is not true, because it is against their policy. IIRC from the Cozy newsletters, Nat had no issue with re-selling of plans as long as there was only one plane per plans#. Does Spruce's policy mean that if plans are re-sold, they will not recognize the purchaser as the new lawful owner of the right to use them? If so then this has some pretty serious copyright implications and effectively kills the resale value of everybody's plans (if they want to do things "above board"). Joe Polenek Quote Joe Cozy Mk IV #1550 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cozy1200 Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 This the first that I've heard of this. Spruce has in the past and was willing for myself to transfer the SN. In reality, if you have the plans, I don't think Spruce is sueing anyone for building without a license. From my experience, I don't beleive spruce will sell half a set of plans. I tried when I only received section one when I purchased SN 008. Call Spruce up, tell them you ONLY want to transfer the lincense into your name. Don't ask for the second Section, I'm pretty sure that's why they shot you down. The plans very clearly state that you MAY copy the plans for PERSONAL use. I copied mine, and left a copy in the states for safe keeping. I also made a copy that's shrunk down to letter size and kept in a 3 ring binder. That's my working copy in the shop So my advice, borrow someone's sec II and run to Kinkos. Quote Drew Chaplin (aka the Foam Whisperer) --- www.Cozy1200.com - I'm a builder now! --- Brace for impact... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Zeitlin Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 IIRC from the Cozy newsletters, Nat had no issue with re-selling of plans as long as there was only one plane per plans#.If you re-registered with Nat, got permission before selling, and (sometimes) paid a $50 "transfer" fee, Nat was OK with it. Does Spruce's policy mean that if plans are re-sold, they will not recognize the purchaser as the new lawful owner of the right to use them?The lawful owner is whomever has them. Remember what the purpose of the license agreement was - the point was to ensure that one set of plans wouldn't be used by multiple builders, and cheat Nat out of the purchase price. His leverage in ensuring that this would happen was that he wouldn't provide SUPPORT to any non-approved builder who hadn't signed a license agreement with him. Since ACS provides absolutely no support, the license agreement has no value to any builder, primary OR secondary. What ACS recognizes or doesn't is meaningless from the builder's standpoint. If so then this has some pretty serious copyright implications and effectively kills the resale value of everybody's plans (if they want to do things "above board").Hardly. There are no copyright implications whatsoever, as long as you don't copy and redistribute the plans. You have every right to sell them, and the next person has every right to use them to build a plane (or make paper hats, or burn in their fireplace). If ACS has any contractual issues with that, they can take it up with the FIRST builder, to whom they sold the plans, because THEY'RE the ones that signed the agreement. But there's NO copyright violation going on with plans sales, anymore than there is when you sell someone a book you've read. ACS can only threaten to withhold support from non-licensed builders - big whoop - they don't provide support anyway, and they're sure not going to NOT sell you stuff with which to build a plane, since that's where they get the bulk of their income anyway - not from plans sales, assuming they had any clue whatsoever that you weren't a licensed builder. I don't think Spruce is sueing anyone for building without a license.And they never will, if not because there's no legal standing to do so, then at least because it would be against their financial interests. Quote Marc J. Zeitlin Burnside Aerospace marc_zeitlin@alum.mit.edu www.cozybuilders.org copyright © 2024 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mplafleur Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 In reading the first post of DiscoveryIsland, I don't see that he/she says they bought these plans from anyone. I assume that he/she is the original purchaser. They just want a copy of part II which was damaged. Quote Mike LaFLeur - Cozy MkIV #1155N68ML Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiscoveryIsland Posted March 4, 2008 Author Share Posted March 4, 2008 Thanks for the information. It was just the thought that being registered with them made my project more 'official' if that makes any since. I approached, AS before my water problems and they were not very helpful. As the Name Registration page was filled out with the #370 and Nathan’s signature, but the builder’s section was blank, I just signed it. Sure! I could use your 2nd copy. If you want me to show you my water logged plans and project to substantiate that I am an actual owner/builder of a Mark IV, let me know. Thanks, (I am a He) Jerry Simi Valley, CA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpolenek Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 The lawful owner is whomever has them.Not according to ACS's current license agreement. Condition B of the agreement says that the owner cannot allow another party to use the plans to build another plane, and condition C says that the plans cannot be transferred to another party without ACS's prior approval. This illustrates the point that the plans are more than just a bunch of paper that belong to whomever physically possesses them. For them to be useful in terms of copyright compliance, they carry with them the right to be used to build a plane, and through the terms of the license agreement, ASC controls who possesses that right. Remember what the purpose of the license agreement was - the point was to ensure that one set of plans wouldn't be used by multiple builders, and cheat Nat out of the purchase price. His leverage in ensuring that this would happen was that he wouldn't provide SUPPORT to any non-approved builder who hadn't signed a license agreement with him. Since ACS provides absolutely no support, the license agreement has no value to any builder, primary OR secondary. What ACS recognizes or doesn't is meaningless from the builder's standpoint. The purpose of the license agreement is to define the rights & privileges (as well as restrictions) that the owner of the intellectual property is giving to the licensee. In this case, the "value" of the license agreement is the right to build one plane from the plans. Its validity has nothing to do with builder support, or lack thereof. Builder support can be used as leverage, as you pointed out, to get people to abide by the agreement, since it is difficult to enforce. The fact that ACS does not provide builder support does not make the agreement and its rights & limitations any less valid, just less likely to be complied with. You have every right to sell them, and the next person has every right to use them to build a plane (or make paper hats, or burn in their fireplace). If ACS has any contractual issues with that, they can take it up with the FIRST builder, to whom they sold the plans, because THEY'RE the ones that signed the agreement. But there's NO copyright violation going on with plans sales, anymore than there is when you sell someone a book you've read.See first point above. ACS can only threaten to withhold support from non-licensed builders - big whoop Ok. Who are you and what have you done with the real Marc Zeitlin??? (The one who always promoted respect for the rights of copyright owners.) () Joe Polenek Quote Joe Cozy Mk IV #1550 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Zeitlin Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 You know what? I had written a long screed in response to Joe P.'s response to me, but after going back and reading the license agreement again, I retract my statements. You're absolutely correct. ACS controls the plans, and if they don't want to transfer them, that's their right, and you're just SOL. Can't copy them, can't give them away, can't sell them, can't do squat without ACS's permission, and if you don't like that, don't buy them. Now, IF someone violates the agreement, it's only the original owner that ACS can sue, since the second owner never signed anything. But you're absolutely correct - I stand corrected. Quote Marc J. Zeitlin Burnside Aerospace marc_zeitlin@alum.mit.edu www.cozybuilders.org copyright © 2024 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cozy1200 Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 Agreed, but it's easy to get overly technical with contract terms. In reality, none of it really matters until you standing before a judge. Like Marc previously stated, I suspect Spruce is much more concerned about the $20k worth of airframe components over whither or not you're the original purchaser. Now if it's ethical, that a different story.... Quote Drew Chaplin (aka the Foam Whisperer) --- www.Cozy1200.com - I'm a builder now! --- Brace for impact... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waco-cozy Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 I bought my Cozy plans off of eBay from the original owner last February. I contacted Necia Chase-Davis from Aircraft Spruce (951-372-9555 ext 300) about transferring the license. She confirmed the original owners name and had both of us sign a transfer agreement and had me sign the license agreement. With that she transferred the license to me. Didn't even charge me Alan Carlson SN # 1201 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Schubert Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 If you just need the instructions and not templates, you can go to Waiters (iflyez.com)site and find a "special" link that has what you need. Quote "We choose to do these things not because they are easy, but because they are hard." JFK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiscoveryIsland Posted March 8, 2008 Author Share Posted March 8, 2008 Thanks guys for all the information. Of course, my post was not to stir up a bunch of discussion, but thanks for the education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 did you get a set yet ? if not send me a post Quote Steve M. Parkins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mplafleur Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 I sent him a set a couple of months ago. Quote Mike LaFLeur - Cozy MkIV #1155N68ML Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverquit Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 No wonder I can't find mine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 my book 2 never did show up ?? Quote Steve M. Parkins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverquit Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 Mike's got it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mplafleur Posted May 20, 2008 Share Posted May 20, 2008 No wonder I can't find mine!hee hee hee!!! Quote Mike LaFLeur - Cozy MkIV #1155N68ML Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiscoveryIsland Posted May 30, 2008 Author Share Posted May 30, 2008 Thanks everyone. I did receive what I was looking for and am back at it. Sorry for the couple month gap. Needless to say, I am keeping my paper work off the floor, which should keep my plans from taking any future baths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted May 30, 2008 Share Posted May 30, 2008 Thanks everyone. I did receive what I was looking for and am back at it. Sorry for the couple month gap. Needless to say, I am keeping my paper work off the floor, which should keep my plans from taking any future baths. that is good to hear.where are you in the build and would you show us some of your work ? i cant work on mine right now and need some one to pick on whilst i wait for me to build a new shop(i get the approved plans from the city today). Quote Steve M. Parkins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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