mlefebvre Posted November 27, 2003 Share Posted November 27, 2003 Hello All... I am very interesting knowing what options builders use to extend the range of the COZY. I am living in Hawaii and would like to be able to someday fly it with my wife to the mainland. I know this is almost double the range of the COZY (OGG to SFO is around 2100nm) so is probably a crazy question, but what are the options really? Increased tankage? Where? Can you put me in contact with other builders who have taken on this build challenge? Any other recommendations? Marc Quote Tis far easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Zeitlin Posted November 27, 2003 Share Posted November 27, 2003 Originally posted by mlefebvre I am living in Hawaii and would like to be able to someday fly it with my wife to the mainland..... so is probably a crazy question, but what are the options really? Increased tankage? Where? Bill Swears (who will be reachable through both the COZY and canard-aviators mailing lists when he gets out of the hospital) just attempted such a flight in his O-320 powered COZY III. Although he had an engine failure and crashed in the ocean about 100 miles off shore, he was rescued by his own CG unit and is now recovering (no really serious injuries). One wing of the plane was just recovered the other day by a fishing boat. At any rate, a removable auxiliary tank is easily fabricated for placement in the rear seat area, with a hookup into the stock fuel feed line. I've calculated that one could add well over 100 gallons to the 50 - 55 gallons that the stock COZY holds. I have no doubt one could modify a COZY to hold enough fuel to travel 4K - 5K miles - Dick Rutan did it in a L.E. It would also be possible to add fuel cells to the end of the strakes, as Dick did on his L.E. for his and Mike Melville's around the world flight - that could add another 20 gallons or so. Quote Marc J. Zeitlin Burnside Aerospace marc_zeitlin@alum.mit.edu www.cozybuilders.org copyright © 2024 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlefebvre Posted November 27, 2003 Author Share Posted November 27, 2003 Thanks for your reply. Are there any build web pages out there that demonstrate the possiblities or give some guidance? I am sure adding this extra weight you have to be extremely careful about CoG and dealing with the extra weight, etc... I read about his accident in the paper and suspected it was a Rutan type design but the article never mentioned it specifically. I am VERY happy that he survived to fly another day. I appreciate your reply and enjoy your website VERY much. I moved out here from the Boston area just over a year ago and dont miss the snow at all... Aloha, Marc Quote Tis far easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dust Posted November 27, 2003 Share Posted November 27, 2003 The weight is not a problem as the extra fuel is at the CG enjoy the build Mike Quote maker wood dust and shavings - foam and fiberglass dust and one day a cozy will pop out, enjoying the build i can be reached at http://www.canardcommunity.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Zeitlin Posted November 27, 2003 Share Posted November 27, 2003 Originally posted by mlefebvre Are there any build web pages out there that demonstrate the possiblities or give some guidance? Not that I've ever seen. It's not real complex, though, especially after you've built the airplane and the strakes, so that you see what the fuel system/tanks look like. I'll bet I could build a 60 gallon long range auxiliary tank in less than a week. Basically, you'd cut a bunch of sheet foam to shape so that it would fit into the rear seat area as far back as possible, with the bottom about 8" off the floor to keep it above the fuel line. You'd have some baffles inside to keep the fuel from sloshing around, and a sump area at the bottom with an exit line and a valve. The filler cap would be on the top (duh), and you'd plumb a vent line to the outside world (flexible tubing would suffice). First, you'd glass the inside of the tank, the baffles and the inside of the top (seperately). you'd then glass the top onto the tank and glass the whole exterior. I am sure adding this extra weight you have to be extremely careful about CoG and dealing with the extra weight, etc... As Mike said, the rear seats are on the CG, for the most part, so that's not much of an issue. More of an issue is the weight, but if you fly solo, even with 60 gallons extra, you're still under gross. With two and and extra 60 gallons, you'd be just over gross. Originally posted by mlefebvre I appreciate your reply and enjoy your website VERY much. I moved out here from the Boston area just over a year ago and dont miss the snow at all... Thanks. Quote Marc J. Zeitlin Burnside Aerospace marc_zeitlin@alum.mit.edu www.cozybuilders.org copyright © 2024 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlefebvre Posted November 28, 2003 Author Share Posted November 28, 2003 Are there any numbers regarding the expected MPG at 40%/75%/100% power for the stock power plant, etc? Quote Tis far easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Zeitlin Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 Originally posted by mlefebvre Are there any numbers regarding the expected MPG at 40%/75%/100% power for the stock power plant, etc? Have you viewed all the performance data at: http://www.cozybuilders.org/performance/ Between the web site and the mailing list archives, you can find what you're looking for. Quote Marc J. Zeitlin Burnside Aerospace marc_zeitlin@alum.mit.edu www.cozybuilders.org copyright © 2024 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No4 Posted November 29, 2003 Share Posted November 29, 2003 For a Piper Cherokee Archer with the same engine we work on 35 litres per hour, or about 9.5 US gallons per hour at 75% power Quote The Coconut King Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cozy1200 Posted November 30, 2003 Share Posted November 30, 2003 Check this link out. It gives a few details on construction. Also, look elsewhere on the site for how to finish a composite plane. I found it interesting. http://curedcomposites.netfirms.com/fueltank.html Quote Drew Chaplin (aka the Foam Whisperer) --- www.Cozy1200.com - I'm a builder now! --- Brace for impact... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2muchepoxy Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Bill Allen built a long range tank for his planned trip across the Alantic from the UK to the US. He did a pretty nice pictorial guide to building his tank. He has it on his website along with the rest of his preparations for the trip. The fuel tank section is at: http://www.longeze.com/Preparation/Longrange_Fuel/longrange_fuel.html Good Luck !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlefebvre Posted December 24, 2003 Author Share Posted December 24, 2003 I am revisting the idea of extending the range of the Cozy and wondered if the strakes themselves could be modified to increase tankage rather than taking up additional cargo/person space. Could the length of the strakes be increase a couple of feet which would increase tankage, which could increase lift for the additional weight, which could solve the problem. We are probably getting into the area that an aeronautical engineer may need to help answer but what gave me this idea is that I stumbled onto a NOAA website about their "custom" Long-EZ (http://www.noaa.inel.gov/Capabilities/longEZ/) where they increased the size of their strakes to accomodate more fuel to increase range. Here is another interesting link for this plane: http://www.noaa.inel.gov/Capabilities/longEZ/pdf/N3ROwnersManual.pdf They were able to increase tankage up to 73 gal total, with an option of another 30 gal in a ferry tank if necessary for a total of 103 gal. This allows the plane to fly over 3000 miles without refueling. They also were able to increase gross take off weight to 1800lbs with the increase in the size of the strakes and use of a Lycoming O-320 engine. What are your thoughts on this? Marc Quote Tis far easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Zeitlin Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 Originally posted by mlefebvre .... but what gave me this idea is that I stumbled onto a NOAA website about their "custom" Long-EZ (http://www.noaa.inel.gov/Capabilities/longEZ/) where they increased the size of their strakes to accomodate more fuel to increase range......They were able to increase tankage up to 73 gal total, with an option of another 30 gal in a ferry tank if necessary for a total of 103 gal. A careful reading of the aircraft's description does NOT indicate any change in the strake size. The word "strake" isn't mentioned. I believe that they increased the tank size by using some or all of the strake baggage area for fuel (an easy change that moves the fuel CG forward a bit) and by using the outboard strake "dead area" where the strake joins the wing as further fuel space (also a relatively simple change). As was indicated in my first response, Dick Rutan and Mike Melville flew around the world in L.E.'s in 1997. You can see pictures of the fuel tanks they added at: http://www.canard.com/ez-around-the-world/photos.html and: http://www.canard.com/ez-around-the-world/md16.jpg This photo shows the tanks that look like baggage pods on the white plane, and tanks that extend from the strakes on the blue plane. I believe total fuel capacity was approximately 143 gallons. Quote Marc J. Zeitlin Burnside Aerospace marc_zeitlin@alum.mit.edu www.cozybuilders.org copyright © 2024 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Clifford Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 Quote:This allows the plane to fly over 3000 miles without refueling. We gained a total of about 6-7 gallons by moving the baggage compartment bulkheads inboard 1-1/2". This will have little effect on the C/G of the plane and give us a little more range if needed. 3000 miles without a stop??? No thanks. You'll end up with bed sores. Quote Dave Clifford "The Metal Man" Musketeer Vise grip hands and Micrometer eyes!! Cozy MKIV Plans #656 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlefebvre Posted December 24, 2003 Author Share Posted December 24, 2003 Marc, Thanks for your clarification. Since I am not yet in build mode, I hadnt realized there was dead space available in the strakes. I got the impression that they actually increased the size of the strakes. Be that as it may, I still wonder if there is any merit to investigating the idea of increasing the length of the strakes which could add lift (gross weight capabilities), range, and fuel tank size. Also, in regards to the 3000 mile range, yea, I dont think I would want to fly that either, however, if you guys remember, I am island bound on Maui, Hawaii and want a plane I can take to the west coast and back with my wife if need be. And is the whole reason I am considering this "range" issue at all. Regards, Marc Quote Tis far easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Zeitlin Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 Originally posted by mlefebvre Be that as it may, I still wonder if there is any merit to investigating the idea of increasing the length of the strakes which could add lift (gross weight capabilities), range, and fuel tank size. Only if you'd like to become an aerodynamicist and re-engineer the plane (which is, of course, do-able, but it's not a COZY anymore). Since we have existance proofs of long-range external and internal tanks that don't affect the aerodynamics (baggage pod type, strake end "bulbs", and internal), it would seem unnecessary to change the strake size. .......want a plane I can take to the west coast and back with my wife if need be. You need to remember just how long a flight like that would be. Using Nat's #'s of 50% power at 12K ft., you'd make about 160 Kts TAS. At that speed, you're looking at 17 hours in the plane, over water. Now, there are a number of people that have made that flight, but it's NOT a common occurance, nor one that is even remotely devoid of risk (witness the recent crash of Bill Swears' aircraft). Not to mention that if I tried to convince my wife to sit in the plane for 17 hours, I'd be missing some important body parts - 2 hours is more than enough for her. My longest leg so far has been 3.3 hours - I'm sure I could do 5-6, but anything more than that would be because I'm trying to set some sort of record - not just to GO somewhere. What you want to do is completely do-able, but...... Quote Marc J. Zeitlin Burnside Aerospace marc_zeitlin@alum.mit.edu www.cozybuilders.org copyright © 2024 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlefebvre Posted December 25, 2003 Author Share Posted December 25, 2003 Interestingly, after plugging in all the values for the COZY performance specs into the Flight Planning Software, a trip from Kahului Airport on Maui (OGG) to San Francisco (SFO) (which happens to be the closest point between the west coast and Maui), works out to: 2029 miles in total, for a total trip time of 12hrs and 50min, and would require 78 gallons of fuel. Based on that, I think my target fuel capacity should be around 100gal for safety. 100 gallons gives me 16hrs and 40min of flight time based on the performance specs, which gives about 4 hrs of extra. Maybe its overkill, but, I like a nice safety margain for such an adventure. Marc Quote Tis far easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No4 Posted December 25, 2003 Share Posted December 25, 2003 I make it 125 gallons required for that flight, and what a trip! 13 hour legs will need lots of piss containers. I hope you are on good terms with your missus. You are really putting yourself up against it, attempting that trip in a homebuit single. It would probably be cheaper to go by airline. Two engines would be a MUCH better idea. A guy was recently stranded at Mcmurdo Base, Antarctica, after trying to fly from NZ to Argentina non stop in an RV-6, 33 hours endurance. He got to the south pole and had to return due to headwinds. A friend of mine had to ditch a Twin Otter about 100 miles off Hawaii on a ferry flight to NZ from the states. The fuel lines from the ferry tank were too small,they had to shut down an engine, and they were using the coffee flask to try to keep the fuel flow up. They ended up being rescued by a ship which took them straight back to San Francisco. Quote The Coconut King Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlefebvre Posted December 28, 2003 Author Share Posted December 28, 2003 After much discussion and searching the internet for ideas and what not, I think I have come to agree with most that the best idea is to modify the strakes to have removable tanks that can be attatched at the ends (Much like Rutans Long-EZ wit the torpedos under the wings). So, the next logical question would be, where is the best place to find some design ideas about how to go about doing this. Do you think contacting Dick Rutan about his Long-EZ mod is appropriate or is there a better idea? Does anyone have any ideas on how best to do this? How do you do the fuel management from these removable tanks? Seperate sump I assume, but how to best incorperate it into fuel system. This seems like the best idea cause then I can putz around the Islands with out the extra hassle and risk, and just attach these when needed for the few times I need to go long distances to the mainland. Marc Quote Tis far easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Woodward Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 Hi Marc I totaly agree with you Quote Standard Cozy IV builder only 2 mods, because I want to get into the air fast. At CH7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteK Posted August 28, 2004 Share Posted August 28, 2004 Agreed. I am interested to see how the mounting and connection of fuel lines is handled. Anyone ever have a look at Lelvill's Long EZ for this? Because of the possibility of screwups with the fuel system I think the plumbing of this system needs to be well though out (duh) Do you plan on directly feeding off these auxiliary tanks, or will you pump fuel from them into your main tanks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Tomlinson Posted August 28, 2004 Share Posted August 28, 2004 After much discussion and searching the internet for ideas and what not, I think I have come to agree with most that the best idea is to modify the strakes to have removable tanks that can be attatched at the ends (Much like Rutans Long-EZ wit the torpedos under the wings). So, the next logical question would be, where is the best place to find some design ideas about how to go about doing this. Do you think contacting Dick Rutan about his Long-EZ mod is appropriate or is there a better idea? Does anyone have any ideas on how best to do this? How do you do the fuel management from these removable tanks? Seperate sump I assume, but how to best incorperate it into fuel system. This seems like the best idea cause then I can putz around the Islands with out the extra hassle and risk, and just attach these when needed for the few times I need to go long distances to the mainland. Marc See if you can contact Bill Swears who was on the Cozy list - I'm not sure if he is elsewhere also. I don't know how much additional fuel he had, and I believe some was in ferry tanks in the back seat. He is a pilot, Coast Guard (ret) in Hawaii who had an aborted flight from Hawaii to the mainland in Nov 2003 in a Cozy. I know he put a lot of practical thought into it and may have a lot of solid advise for you. Quote /dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken Posted March 10, 2005 Share Posted March 10, 2005 Look in Thread larger fuel tank. This tank was made by Aircraft Rubber in Redmond Oregon. Any question please email me at cozy01@hotmail.com Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gupri Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 I realise, that my contribution comes rather late for your question, but I remember seeing a photo of a canard aircraft (can't remember whether it was a Cozy) with external tanks on pylons. Seem to remember, that it was built by a Swiss guy, who flew that plane from Europe to the USA without any problems and setting records in the process. Just checked out the website and found, that he flew a Long EZ. If you go to www.earthrounders.com/cgi/singles.php then go to the year 2000 and click on H G Schmid, you will find his stories and pictures. Have a Happy and prosperous New Year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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