Arbiter Posted August 17, 2008 Share Posted August 17, 2008 Hi Folks, Been working on settling down on which plans to purchase. I have seen a lot of posts about Aerocanard Vs. Cozy plans. Some say you need both to build an ACanard... What I would really appreciate is someone with recent ACanard Plans and Cozy MkIV plans to scan a couple pages from the same chapter or part of the build (Just enough to get a flavor for how different they are) to compare apples to apples. I thought some pages from the Fuse Bulkhead chapter would be useful, or some other more complicated area just to reference. In addition, what are people's current thoughts on: The benefits of either set of plans. For me I intend to turn either one into a tandem 2 seat version (NOT INTERESTED IN LONG EZ WITH WIDTH MOD AT THIS TIME) for lots of extra room and with more headroom. This seems to point toward the Aerocanard, but I am not totally certain. Could I use the Eureka Cores for the wings and Canard for the Cozy and the Aerocanard? This vendor seems to do excellent work, and I would not dream of trying this on my own when such a great source for the wings and canard exists! Is there any modification required to the Cozy Cores to make them useable for the Aerocanard? The drawbacks (Are there areas where one is more clear than the other, or something that frustrates you about a certain section) How are the illustrations for each set? What about the full sized drawings? Any chance to get the CAD versions for either one from the manufacturer? I know some people have made copies of them, but my thinking on this is both to CAD in the mods I want to make, and to be able to make templates out of metal using CNC machine so I have precise templates (If I don't get Eureka Cores, which I would like to do (AWESOME WORKMANSHIP!!!)) for the wings/winglets, canard, and fuse. Does each set of plans spell out warnings anywhere for "If you screw this up you will definitely die?" and if so, are either one better at this than the other? Safety is important afterall... If Templates in CAD are not available how do people make lasting templates? I hope everyone is enjoying their build so far! I am hoping to be purchasing plans within a few months! Looking forward to the posts! -Chris Z. Quote Chris Zupp ~Aircraft Designer~ Preliminary Design Sequence I: Project Endeavour Aeronautical/Mechanical Engineer Private Pilot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickh Posted August 17, 2008 Share Posted August 17, 2008 Take this with a grain of salt... I understand the Aerocanard instructions are identical to the Cozy-IV instruction books. Aerocanard issued PDF's of their instructions to the public domain maybe two years ago. They were on the WIKI, but I think that's since gone off line. I've a few of them, though not the complete set. Other than some of the sketches (real grainy in the shareware), they appear to be identical to my Cozy instructions. Word for word. You can get "extra M" drawings from ACS for 50 clams. They're not plotter prints, rather large laser/Kinkos prints... There are no match lines (of the standard OEM plans) to deal with, so you're templates end up pretty good. In both cases (OEM or extra M drawings), the templates aren't exact. At least in my opinion There's a ton of Cozy's flying, and I don't know how many other canards, all used plans like this. When you add in: copy to template stock error, which side of the line to cut on error, general template error, hot wiring error, add in a dollop of countouring and fill, ... There's a few digitized sketches out there, though not everything you need to build. How/if you adapt these to cutting cores and stuff is way beyond me. I've been following your 'stretch' thread, suppose it could be done. Cozy and Aerocanard both have a middle 'spine' on the floor, it's needed. From what I know, the Velocity doesn't. Also, the back seat length is a bit 'frugal' in the Cozy. Works fine for baggage, small adults, or short trips. It may not be adequate for a co-pilot position. And if the front seat was slid aft too... Head to Rough River next month, take a gander at the variety of canards there, pick some brains... Rick Quote Rick Hall; MK-IV plans #1477; cozy.zggtr.org Build status: 1-7, bits of 8-9, 10, 14 done! Working on engine/prop/avionics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbiter Posted August 17, 2008 Author Share Posted August 17, 2008 Hi Rick, Thank you for the great advice. Were the plans you saw for the Acanard to compare to your Cozy plans the new ones they supposedly have out there? I do plan to go to Rough River this year, I am really excited! I will probably be the one walking around looking all bright eyed and in wonderment! On the fuse widening issue, if I go totally Tandem I think I can Make the back seat more comfortable for the copilot. I am not sure I will actually move the front seat back, since it has a 400 lb capacity I would be fine in my current status @ 263 Lbsish! The reason I am thinking of going with the ACanard is they have incorporated the stretch of the Cozy in the back and added some head-room which would allow me to take some of it back when I go to make the seats less laid back and higher up in the back for visibility... I think I am going to make my cockpit laid out a lot like a fighter, I want it to feel powerful and ergonomic! Does anyone know if the Cozy Cores Eureka sells are good for an ACanard? Still looking for a side by side page comparison for a chapter in the Cozy and ACanard plans... Did Acanard finally update their plans with the latest bulletins from Nat? Safety is my #1 concern, and if the Acanard plans are missing them, I may have to think about buying the CoZy plans and Modding them myself... Thanks! I look forward to more of your posts! Thanks folks! -Chris Quote Chris Zupp ~Aircraft Designer~ Preliminary Design Sequence I: Project Endeavour Aeronautical/Mechanical Engineer Private Pilot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argoldman Posted August 17, 2008 Share Posted August 17, 2008 Chris, Whether the back seat is comfortable for your co-pilot really depends on her/his leg length. Because of the rake of the front seatback, those with long legs, or long feet will find it uncomfortable to stretch their legs out, in the back seat, since the seatback forces one to flex their ankles sometimes more than comfortably. If you have a short legged GIB or BIB, make a little foot rest to keep the feet at a comfortable level of flex I still vote for the stagger-ez concept, That'll give you the best of both worlds. Quote I Canardly contain myself! Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbiter Posted August 17, 2008 Author Share Posted August 17, 2008 Chris, I still vote for the stagger-ez concept, That'll give you the best of both worlds. Sorry, no interest in this approach, though practical, it is ugly from my incessant need for symmetry :-P (No offense to people who have stagger EZs, it just doesn't sit well with me) Another way to get more leg-room is to have the person sit both more high off the bottom of the fuselage, and bring the back of the chair toward the rear of the aircraft so they are sitting more straight (What might this clash with in the back?... -Chris Z. Quote Chris Zupp ~Aircraft Designer~ Preliminary Design Sequence I: Project Endeavour Aeronautical/Mechanical Engineer Private Pilot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Limo EZ Posted August 17, 2008 Share Posted August 17, 2008 To gain legroom for the backseater make the front seat more upright. Increase the depth of the fuselage by1.5 to 2" by making the top and bottom longeron further apart. This also moves the thrust line up so you have more prop clearance. The nose strut currently available seems to handle this increase. Joe Berki Limo EZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbiter Posted August 17, 2008 Author Share Posted August 17, 2008 To gain legroom for the backseater make the front seat more upright. Increase the depth of the fuselage by1.5 to 2" by making the top and bottom longeron further apart. This also moves the thrust line up so you have more prop clearance. The nose strut currently available seems to handle this increase. Joe Berki Limo EZ Is the depth issue you are talking about something you have used as a mod yourself? Still looking for a side by side comparison Cozy Vs. Aerocanard Anyone have comments about the differences in the fuel systems? I hear the Cozy is a tank selector and AeroC is a sump each tank drains to. Are there benes and drawbacks to both, if so, what are they? Thanks! -Chris Z. Quote Chris Zupp ~Aircraft Designer~ Preliminary Design Sequence I: Project Endeavour Aeronautical/Mechanical Engineer Private Pilot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Limo EZ Posted August 17, 2008 Share Posted August 17, 2008 Chris, Yes, The Limo EZ is 2" deeper at the side and maybe a little more do the the curvature in the floor. As far as fuel systems there are a lot of opinions out there but you have to balance safety with pilot work load. I am using a fuel injected engine that rquires returning fuel to the tank. This would require a lot of lines in the cabin. I made a gallon sump that bridges the two tanks via large openings no metal lines. It feeds out the back through the firewall. I have yet to fly so take this info at your own risk. Joe Berki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbiter Posted August 17, 2008 Author Share Posted August 17, 2008 Chris, Yes, The Limo EZ is 2" deeper at the side and maybe a little more do the the curvature in the floor. As far as fuel systems there are a lot of opinions out there but you have to balance safety with pilot work load. I am using a fuel injected engine that rquires returning fuel to the tank. This would require a lot of lines in the cabin. I made a gallon sump that bridges the two tanks via large openings no metal lines. It feeds out the back through the firewall. I have yet to fly so take this info at your own risk. Joe Berki Hey Joe, Thanks for the reply. I can see the benefit of a system like this, do you know of any major potential drawbacks? How do you plan to monitor the fuel levels? Also, how do you keep the fuel from flowing through the sump into the other tank and making your W&B side to side funky? Do you have a check valve for each side or something? -Chris Z. Quote Chris Zupp ~Aircraft Designer~ Preliminary Design Sequence I: Project Endeavour Aeronautical/Mechanical Engineer Private Pilot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macleodm3 Posted August 17, 2008 Share Posted August 17, 2008 Still looking for a side by side comparison Cozy Vs. Aerocanard I wonder if anyone has purchased even the first set of the newly released AeroCanard plans (does a "new" set exist?). As it has been said, the version that I have seen which was for sale a few years ago, were essentially the same as the Cozy plans, only they were typed a little different, and they came in a three ring binder instead of spiral bound. I haven't seen any warnings in the Cozy plans, other then Nat saying "follow the plans". There are certain methods you learn early on, and then later the details are left out... its assumed you've learned correctly. I doubt a true re-write has ever been done, the Cozy plans actually read real similar to the Long-ez plans. There's plenty of info there to finish, but sometimes it seems a few more detail would be helpful. But all in all, the Cozy plans are truely a work of art, and work real well. I am so glad I got a set. Virtually any fuel system has been discussed here, many options can be done for any of these planes.... they may get you into trouble if not thought out very well. You can modify either set of plans just as easily as the next. Each small change has a bunch of further changes that arrise. I believe Nat actually built a Cozy before he wrote the plans. Then he built another Cozy and called it "proof of plans".... but I'm not sure. Quote Andrew Anunson I work underground and I play in the sky... no problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Limo EZ Posted August 17, 2008 Share Posted August 17, 2008 Chris, The plans baffles in the strakes should slow the fuel traveling from one side to the other. I have a capacitor in each tank that will be part of a fuel gauge system so that i can monitor the levels in each tank. There are sight gauges in the strakes. When you start to get into developing the plane you want form a set of plans it probably does not make much of a difference from which plan set you start with. If you are building strictly to plans pick the one that you like and try not to deviate. You will be flying sooner. Joe Berki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cozy Girrrl Posted August 17, 2008 Share Posted August 17, 2008 I'll second what Joe said, buy the plans, stick to them and you will fly sooner! Oh, and don't start a business in the middle of it either We are finally back building full steam. ...Chrissi Quote CG Products www.CozyGirrrl.com Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B Turbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbiter Posted August 17, 2008 Author Share Posted August 17, 2008 Hey Joe and Cozy Girrl, Thanks for the advice! I think that would point me more toward the Aerocanard plans since the rear seat is already modded a bit larger. I will see what happens, and thanks for the info on the fuel system! Take care! -Chris Quote Chris Zupp ~Aircraft Designer~ Preliminary Design Sequence I: Project Endeavour Aeronautical/Mechanical Engineer Private Pilot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Matcho Posted August 18, 2008 Share Posted August 18, 2008 I have both sets of plans, layering the Aerocanard FG plans over my Cozy Mark IV plans so that I could gain the extra width in the rear seat. Based on the magnitude of your modifications, it doesn't matter which set of plans you use. Have you contacted AeroCad recently? Quote Jon Matcho Builder & Canard Zone Admin Now: Rebuilding Quickie Tri-Q200 N479E Next: Resume building a Cozy Mark IV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbiter Posted August 18, 2008 Author Share Posted August 18, 2008 I have both sets of plans, layering the Aerocanard FG plans over my Cozy Mark IV plans so that I could gain the extra width in the rear seat. Based on the magnitude of your modifications, it doesn't matter which set of plans you use. Have you contacted AeroCad recently? Hi John, BTW, thanks for the Forum! It's a really great place to get information! To answer your question, I am going to try and contact them today sometime! I tried this weekend but no answer . In terms of magnitude of modifications, my main mod if I did Aerocanard would be going to 2 place Tandem Seating instead of 4. I would posit that not much will change in the way of structure, but I may alter the seating positions of each person with some extra lay-ups. We'll see, but thanks for the advice! Also, why doesn't the quick-reply option work? I keep scrolling and trying to click on that to reply, but can't get it to work, is it disabled?? Thanks! -Chris Quote Chris Zupp ~Aircraft Designer~ Preliminary Design Sequence I: Project Endeavour Aeronautical/Mechanical Engineer Private Pilot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triptrish Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 Chris, I have the pdf version of the Aerocanard plans. The only difference is that they do not have the actual photos that are included in the Cozy plans. I use them to read up on them at night. It is also very nice to have a set of plans with me wherever I go, since my laptop goes everywhere I go. Don Solomon Durango, CO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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