over 19500' VFR?

[ZUCZZ]

How can one get permission to go above 19500 as a VFR pilot with a normal PPL ?

 

The Area people will give you permission to go above (under "the flexible use of airspace" and "when it is safe to do so" and "when space & workload permits"), but is there anything in the ordinary rules governing VFR flights that needs to be taken care of?

 

i.e. The area allows you to go, but is there any other restriction on your license, (bar Oxygen required) that would prevent you from going this high.

(once of for flight testing purposes)

 

Any advice appreciated.

 

I do realise that we live on different continents, but the rules are basically the same everywhere.

[Waiter]

(Edited by waiter - References to Class G should be Class A)

 

In the United States, Class G airspace begins at 18,000 ft, and extends up to 60,000 ft.

 

Normally, flight into Class G requires the aircraft be operated under IFR rules.

 

HOWEVER, There are exceptions; There are several areas around the US that operate with a "Letter of Agreement" with the FAA that allow VFR traffic into Class G.

 

Most notably, near Minden Nevada, Gliders are able to operate well into the Flight Levels in an area known as "The Wave". A mountain wave builds up on the leeward side of the Sierra Nevada's

 

VFR flight must be pre-coordinated with the FAA (Oakland center) as they reroute IFR traffic to stay clear.

 

This is also the site used for High Altitude "records". Most notably, in 1996, Jim Price set an altitude record of 35,027 ft in his normally aspirated LongEZ.

 

Personally, I'd love to see the FAA do something like a "High Altitude Endorsement" that would allow VMC flight above 18,000ft. The current 18,000ft rules have been in place since the beginning of time, and don't take into account the high altitude capabilities of many GA aircraft that are now entering the fleet.

 

Waiter

[ZUCZZ]

Thank you Waiter!

 

Your answer was illuminating, confirming and most welcome.

 

For my further altitude testing I have applied for a waiver, which they are currently considering. But I do remember somewhere in the rules it says "all flights above FL 200 shall be conducted IFR."

 

Having researched the complete airlaw books over the weekend, I could not pinpoint any particular specific wording that excluded VFR with special permission ... Application was made to the Area Control, but not to the lawmakers [in our case SACAA = FAA, and around here ATNS (Air Traffic Navigation Services) control the space]

 

I could get an IF rated pilot to come along, but only a nut would venture into IMC during the test phase, anyway not me

[Cozy1200]

Waiter, I haven't flown much in the last two years so I'm a little rusty on airspace.

 

But isn't that class Alpha?

[raiki]

Spods the man here but this is the Australian rules from the CASA published VFR flight Guide.

 

Class G airspace here is uncontrolled. Do as you like, no clearance required. IFR and VFR permitted. Flight information will be provide if possible and if you request it. Bascially this is all airspace that is not classified as any other class (GAAP, E, D, C).

 

Class E airspace (generally from 8500 to FL180 around capital cities) is also uncontrolled for VFR. Again IFR and VFR permitted but IFR needs clearance, VFR does not. However there are quite a few areas where E class goes up to FL245 (outside major cities, but within easy reach) so here a VFR flight can go close to FL245 (dont forget seperation minima). I suspect most countries have similar areas.

 

Above FL245, for pretty much all of Australia, is Class A. VFR pilots dont even learn about that mistical upper atmosphere.

[Waiter]

CLASS A

CLASS A

CLASS A

CLASS A

 

Repeat after me, Class A, NOT Class G

 

( I don't have a clue where I got that from, Its sad when an Ausie knows the airspace better than a Local :-)

 

Note to Moderator - We need one of those Smilies thats shows me pulling my head out of my behind :-(

 

Waiter

[ZUCZZ]

Does not really matter what you call it, you gave some footage as reference Thanks. Chris Van Hoof

[Spodman]

I'm sure the rules will be different there, mainly because they are particularly weird here because they haven't caught up with some recent airspace reform. Outside the East Coast High DeNsity Area (ECHIDNA - An acronym found in no manual but I reckon it is neat) and the area around capital cities we have E airspace between FL180 & FL245 and A airspace above that. Inside the area above we have C airspace between FL125 & FL180 and A airspace above that. VFR can do what they like in E airspace of course, but a local regulation says they can't fly above FL200 without approval from the regulator CASA (Committee Against Safe Aviation - or something like that). If you seek such approval they will approve you if you have an IFR capable altimeter for flight in E airspace. If you want to enter A they will impose additional restrictions, such as in this: http://casa.gov.au/rules/miscinst/2005/casa289.pdf

 

This is for a meet as described by Waiter, and is used in my sector, the record in my airspace being 27,934ft! I have handled a couple of one-off requests, one for a hot air balloon, and CASA negotiates with us and will create an individual instrument.

 

It is most unlikely your regulator has such an anachronistic rule, and it is not likely to be a factor there.

 

I have discussed access to Class A airspace by VFR in the US with their ATC and have been assured they can issue a 'waiver', which I imagine works like the above, but only involves operational FAA people, not the regulation side of things. The criteria for approving such requests is only effect on separation, under the guidance of ICAO ANSP are required to provide positive separation in A airspace, even to and between VFR! A VFR without a transponder going anywhere IFR aircraft do would be told to buggar off.

 

Whether your ANSP will contemplate a clearance or not would entirely depend on the liver condition of those you talk to. First step (having absorbed this background) is to telephone your local ATC centre and get their views. If they issue a waiver you are organised. If they are keen but don't have the authority you will have to contact your regulator and obtain it.

 

I actually work with a nice SA couple and asked them about this, and they had no idea, but they were both on approach. Interestingly, neither had heard of the concept of homebuilt aircraft!

[ZUCZZ]

Spodman,

 

your insight is most valuable, especially since our local SACAA slavishly follows all that is in Australia (we even hire Aus Consultants). The sad bit is that where you (in Aus) change things for the better, in Africa the rule is more rules, never less (example hombuilding in Aus has become easier/here we have just adapted your old stuff)

 

Anyway, the Controllers (locally) that I have had contact with seemed very willing to help with the waiver. they even went so far as to identify a block where they reckon no traffic goes. And that is where i do my testing.

 

Yes the plane is transponder equipped (mode C) and the instrumentation is certified equipment.

 

Now the rule that says all flights above FL200 will be conducted IFR, is what I am interested in. Having spent the whole weekend working thru the lawbooks, I cannot locate this particular rule in writing. Obviously i have overlooked it somewhere in the scanning ... where would you look?

 

The reason for looking is that I believe I must know the extend of the power of the people, in order to know when I am asking for the impossible and breaking the law, even with the best intentions of all those helping me kindly

[ZUCZZ]

So, here we are with our waiver in hand, ready to do the testing and with a bit of luck, next weekend. (July 12, 2008)

 

For those that follow ...

 

Flights above VFR do not "have" to be IFR, they are however done to IMC minima. Since you will be in contact with your local radar people, you will have a tranponder and they will make sure that you have the separation with other traffic. "Radar" by the name of ATNS (Air Traffic Navigational Services) and their CAMU people (Central Air Management Unit) gave permission under the "Flexible Use of Airspace" act to do this testing VFR. The area allocated is 15 Nm around Lichtenburg (FALI)

 

My plane is still in it's test phase and in South Africa, I had to have the test range increased. They readily obliged and gave a a 350 Km (189 Nm) range from my base (FASY), this means my test area is nicely inside and should I have to divert, it can be in any direction.

 

Preparation of the plane:

 

Send plane to the Avionics shop and have the Transponder, radio and vacuum system checked out and tested.

 

Once back:

GPS charged and 12v connection intact. Garmin 296

Check second GPS Garmin 196

Strip and look everything over.

Wash & polish, including the canopy.

Check Oxygen system & volume.

Refuel to 1/2 tanks on level.

Have some "stick on" window panels incase of "fog"

Chamois & soft cloth withing reach.

 

Before Saturday:

Thu & Fri, change diet to eliminated gas creating foodies.

Daily Weather report: it must be VFR perfect with the least moisture possible, otherwise it will be aborted and done another day.

 

On the Saturday:

Detailed Weather report to confirm previous data.

Make sure everything is secure and shipshape.

Space blanket & clips in plane.

Gloves & mittens in plane.

 

Wait for the officials to install the FAI logger, that way I don't have to get cold twice :-)

Going for the record. Think Jim Price's 35017 is safe in the LongEze, but the Africa & South Africa numbers are open

 

More later...

[oscarm98]

Did this guy live?

 

How high did he go?