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FloridaFlyer

Is the RV-10 better than the Cozy?

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I am considering building a plane and my top contenders are the Cozy and RV-10. The advantages I see of the RV-10 over the Cozy are the ability to operate from grass strips, short takeoff/landing distance, and more useful load. Disadvantages of RV-10 are initial cost and fuel economy.

 

I would like to hear from Cozy builders/flyers your opinions of these airplanes and the advantages/disadvantages of each.

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I received the same question a couple of days ago by email. Perhaps it was from you. Anyway, here's my reply:

 

While they have high-speed, long distance cruise in common, the RV-10 and Cozy are rather different in terms of mission. The Cozy is not ideal for aerobatics or short field (grass) runways while the RV is good at both.

 

The RV probably costs a lot more to build. Cozy airframe will cost about $15k, and you can spend it slowly as you go along.

 

I like the Cozy for the cross country mission because:

1. It's inexpensive to build

2. You build from plans, ordering from competing suppliers

3. Its faster than an RV (I think)

4. I like composite materials - easy to learn - easy to fix mistakes

5. The idea of installing 50,000 rivets makes me wince

6. It looks cool and flys the wright way.

7. You get more chances to modify the basic design and add you're own touches

 

On the other side, the RV fast build kit would probably take less build time.

 

I think most people that decide on the Cozy just fall in love with the shape of it.


I can be reached on the "other" forum http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net

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Well, first of all the wings of the COZY are on the wrong ends!

 

:D

 

Hi John! This looks like a nice place! Nice chatting with you tonight and thanks for introducing me to this forum.

 

Getting back on topic, I chose the RV for the same reason you are installing air conditioning in your aircraft. She didn't like the looks of the canard. I was on the fence too. They are totally different designs and utilize drastically disparate construction methods and materials. I have selected the RV-7.

 

With regards to materials, I favored the noise pollution over the air pollution. Once the riveting ceases, the pollution is over. I have a sensitive nose and the composites are harder for me to handle than the alternative.

 

One other consideration is the -10 is really quite new. Although Van has a fairly comprehensive R&D staff, they still make errors. Case in point, the -7 rudder needed to be enhanced for additional authority after preliminary kits were shipped. I don't like being the guinea pig.

 

The comments my friend John mentioned are all pretty close to the mark. Some of them cemented my decision in building the RV.

 

#2 - I like the kit supplied approach. It costs more, but suits me better.

 

#3 - Not sure about that. Maybe it is so? 200 mph is the published figure. As more completions fly, this could change. How does that stack up?

 

#5 - Ahhh, all the rivets. Well, I am OK with that.

 

They are both admirable airplanes and I would be proud to own either one. Build one of each!

 

 

:D CJ

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From what I have seen these two planes have some comparable stats.

 

I think contruction methods and kit vs. plans are the big factors and only you can decide what fits you better.

 

Composite construction has many advantages over aluminum - simple tools and easy to fix any mistakes you may make. You need many more, expensive tools to work with metal.

 

However, there are some disadvantages to composite. I just added the spar cap to the bottom of my second wing about an hour ago. It took me six hours. Once started, you must finish. Other than a few short breaks to pee or get a drink of water, you have to finish. This requires planning ahead and getting spousal approval to baby sit while you work in the workshop.

 

With metal construction you can almost always drop something in a minutes notice and come back to it later. This allows for more flexability. Only have 20 minutes? Go bang a few rivets. Finish it later.

 

If you have time to make a decision, try out both methods. Find local builers or a local EAA chapter and help out on some projects. Decide what works for you.

 

Enjoy


Rick Maddy

Denver, CO

Cozy Mk IV #824 - Chapter 18

http://www.maddyhome.com/cozy

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>She didn't like the looks of the canard.

There's no accounting for taste!

 

>I have a sensitive nose and the composites are harder for me ...

The MGS epoxy many are using these days has no odor whatsoever

 

>200 mph is the published figure. How does that stack up?

The Cozy spec VNE is 230mph


I can be reached on the "other" forum http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net

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Originally posted by John Slade

>200 mph is the published figure. How does that stack up?

The Cozy spec VNE is 230mph

Oh, vee ENN eeeh... The Vne figure for the -10 seems unpublished. I was offering a straight and level 75% cruise power setting. You know, the kind of number you would use every day.

 

:P

 

I took this from Van's site:

 

Flown at 2200 lbs, representing a typical two-people-and-three-quarters-fuel weight, it achieved a take-off distance of 360’ and a landing distance of 525’. The climb rate averaged about 1700 fpm. At 75% power and 8000’, true airspeed topped the magic 200 mph mark...actually, it was 201 smph.

 

Pretty spirited, overall!

 

:D CJ

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In your defense, according to the specs on the front page here the COZY is claimed to do precisely that on only 180 hp.

 

Everything except for takeoff/landing distance. Also, I think the Cozy may be more CG sensitive.

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Which plane do you LOVE, 50,000 rivets, 400 yards of cloth. Hours is Hours.

 

I love the design and materials of the cozy. So many positive thinks to say, but what it really boils down to is love.

 

In order to be in the 20% who finish the plane they start, you have to love it.

 

enjoy the build

 

Mike


maker wood dust and shavings - foam and fiberglass dust and one day a cozy will pop out, enjoying the build

 

i can be reached at

 

http://www.canardcommunity.com/

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Originally posted by FloridaFlyer

 

Everything except for takeoff/landing distance. Also, I think the Cozy may be more CG sensitive.

Yes, the takeoff/landing distance doesn't compare, and I might be interested in an RV eventually, but I want the cross country cruising speed and I agree with the others, the basic airframe will cost less.

 

Do you mean the CG envelope is smaller on the Cozy? Does anybody know the size of the CG range on the -10?

 

A CG envelope can be exceeded in either airplane, the difference is, I rarely see anything about a canard having an excessively aft CG, it is normally to far forward, which is still bad, but not nearly as deadly (stall/spin). An aft CG is usually what happens in a "standard" airplane. I learned about aft CG back in the freight dog days. The ramp lied about the weights and I had more than a few four letter words for them as the Aerostar rotated on its own for takeoff, from a negative deck angle no less. Try flying for an hour in an airplane that is divergent in pitch (you can't let go of the yoke or keep the airplane at a given altitude.) No fun. Forward of the CG limit is bad, aft is/can be much worse.

 

Every airplane has its strengths and weakenesses, it is all a matter of what fits your needs and wants.

 

Fly safe.

 

Jim


1957 PA-22/20 "Super Pacer"

Cavalier SA102.5

Cozy IV s/n 970

 

Please don't tell mum I'm a pilot, she thinks I play piano in a bordello.

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>Do you mean the CG envelope is smaller on the Cozy?

EZ and Cozy drivers have been handling this for years without problems, but you DO need to pay attention to C of G in a Canard.

 

For example, she sits nose down. Lift the nose before anyone gets in (or get out before lowering) and the nose want to come up. You have to be careful she doesnt tip over and fall on the prop / winglets.

 

Fly dual and drop off a 200lb passenger. You'll need to carry weights with you, and move them to the front before taking off solo.

 

Aft C of G beyond limits is bad in a conventional airplane - been there, done that. Aft out of limits C of G in a canard can be worse because it can put you in a position where the main wing stalls before the canard. This leads to a condition known as deep stall where there's no elevator response and no way to get the nose back down. The airplane sinks in a stable ass-down attitude.

 

Having said all the above, let me repeat that thousands of canard drivers have been living happily with these issues for 30 years with very few problems, expect during the early years. As someone said - every airplane has its advantage, disadvantages and limitations. You just have to know what they are and fly inside the envelope.

 

Hope this helps.


I can be reached on the "other" forum http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net

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This is one of the most active discussions that I have seen on this forum!

 

Do you mean the CG envelope is smaller on the Cozy?

You don't have to carry around extra weight to be shifted around in the RV-10 like you would the Cozy.

 

Speaking of construction methods... just how loud is riveting. If I am in my garage with the door closed, will riveting disturb my neighbors. I live in a normal subdivision of single family homes with about 15' between houses.

 

With fiberglass, I've read posts that humidity can affect the strength of the bond. How do you ensure that you are getting strong bonds in a humid (Florida) environment. J. Slade, I think you live in West Palm. Have you had any problems?

 

I consider the construction method to be secondary to the utility of the aircraft that it will render. I am fully open to learning either construction method. If I choose to build the RV-10, I will likely go to Alexander's Tech Center in Griffin, GA. Seven days of hard work and the empennage is complete plus an education in metal work.

 

Concerning cost... Acquisition is only part of the picture. Many ownership costs of the Cozy and RV would be identical. (i.e. hangar, fuel (slightly higher on the -10, insurance)

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Two kneeling canards easily share T hangars

 

No internal parts to corode

 

Glass layups are very loud, When you get stuck with your first razor sharp glass spicual you will understand.

 

I don't believe vans published speed figures, i've heard they are overstated a number of times.


maker wood dust and shavings - foam and fiberglass dust and one day a cozy will pop out, enjoying the build

 

i can be reached at

 

http://www.canardcommunity.com/

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Originally posted by FloridaFlyer

Speaking of construction methods... just how loud is riveting. If I am in my garage with the door closed, will riveting disturb my neighbors. I live in a normal subdivision of single family homes with about 15' between houses.

I think that all depends on your neighbors and their feelings about their "right to enjoy the peace and serenity of their dwelling."

 

We have some folks here in STL that want to shut down a brand new R/C model airplane facility because the airpalnes are too loud, so loud that you can't hear them over the leaf blowers everyone is using this time of year. I would insulate your garage (heat/sound) and then see what it sounds like, it'll probably be worse in your own house than any where else. I know that my compressor is pretty loud, its a Craftsman upright. With the door closed it isn't that noticable outside. I wanted to build a shed behind the garage for it but I think that running it at 0300 would probably upset most of my neighbors. That will have to wait.

 

I personally still like the curvy shapes we can make with fiberglass and foam.

 

Jim


1957 PA-22/20 "Super Pacer"

Cavalier SA102.5

Cozy IV s/n 970

 

Please don't tell mum I'm a pilot, she thinks I play piano in a bordello.

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The rv-10 is not recomended for aerobatics...


I'm not aware of too many things. I know what I know if you know what I mean.

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Yeah I know...

 

I was responding to Johns previous quote.

 

Originally posted by John Slade While they have high-speed, long distance cruise in common, the RV-10 and Cozy are rather different in terms of mission. The Cozy is not ideal for aerobatics or short field (grass) runways while the RV is good at both. [/b]

I do agree with everything else John said..

 

For me the decision was difficult. I think both designs are exceptional and I would be happy with either.

 

I like the idea of spreading the costs out and I think that the cozy does have a cruise performance advantage based on engine size so thats why I went with the cozy.

 

From reading the specs it seems to me that the RV-10 will have more interior space. Thats important if you're 6'1" and weigh 250 such as I do. I do plan to be 200lbs by the time the cozy is ready to fly.


I'm not aware of too many things. I know what I know if you know what I mean.

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"......I do plan to be 200lbs by the time the cozy is ready to fly."

 

ME TOO!!!. I figure if I can drop 30lbs (or even 50lbs), it can make up for a couple of those heavy layups I made <g>.

 

All the best,

 

Chris


Christopher Barber

Velocity SE/FG w/yoke. Zoom, zoom, zoom.

www.LoneStarVelocity.com

 

Live with Passion...

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Which is better... a Ferrari or a Porsche?

 

Its not a decision that can be made rationally. John has it right... just go for which one appeals to you the most. Go for the one you love!


This ain't rocket surgery!

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hmmm, balast or an air conditioner.....I think I would prefer the A/C.....I am in Houston after all....of course without an A/C I may sweat off the wieght waiting on the ramp for clearance <g>. To think, I was a personal trainer before I became an attonrey....just one more thing agenst lawyers ;)

 

All the best,

 

Chris


Christopher Barber

Velocity SE/FG w/yoke. Zoom, zoom, zoom.

www.LoneStarVelocity.com

 

Live with Passion...

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Originally posted by John Slade

I'm 165. If you could get down to that you could have an air conditioner. :D

If I get down to 165 I have bigger problems than worrying about sweat!:D


I'm not aware of too many things. I know what I know if you know what I mean.

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Greetings everyone, (I am new to the Forum)

 

I am considering a Cozy, but have not yet made the decision. The reason I post is because I wanted to know if that is really true... dropping off a passenger and needing to move ballast to the front seat. Is it really that sensitive? I am suprised.

 

I do have a million other questions and don't know quite where to begin. I have made the decision to build... finally after about 6 years of wanting to. Now I need to make the decision on WHAT to build.

** I have had the plans for a Long EZ for some years now (don't know how complete they are). I do like the Long EZ for a number of reasons

** I am also interested in the Cozy, but I hear that factory support is a bit less than friendly for some people. (Who knows if that is true.. you all know how rumors are.)

** I love the Velocity - but not the cost.

 

My mission specs, ramblings, and notions:

- Minimize cost as much as possible, so that I can maximize on-board equipment. (I want the works in the panel.)

- I want it reasonably comfortable for long flights.

- I want fast... as fast as possible. (200Kt +?)

- I want long range... as long as possible. (1,000 NM+?)

- I want easy and fun to fly

- I want a SAFE, proven design or variant thereof

- I want an engine and airframe that I can work on, maintain, etc... avoiding paying people. (I am not wealthy.)

- I like the idea of a non-aviaiton engine ... but I want long life and reliability of an aircraft engine. (impossible dreams)

- I want something that is easy to get in, start up, and fly away in without excessive preparation or work every week once it is built. (I want to put in the work to build it... and then enjoy flying it and showing it off.)

- I don't expect that it will be a showplane.

- I want a design that I can modify. (Ideas that I have in mind are hard-point removable baggage pods, camera pod, wingtip cameras, on-board laptop, overdone avionics, ham radio, radio/cd player, head-protection rollbar, and some years after completing the build I hope to experiment with an active noise reduction system for the whole cabin.)

- I want an autopilot.

- I want to fly IFR, and want the glass cockpit with analog backup instruments.

- Side by side seating is preferred (wife factor) and more than 2 seats is preferred. Although two-seat tandem is acceptable.

- I need to have a pretty good understanding of the scope of the whole project before I begin, and I want plans that are detailed enough that even a monkey could understand. I might be an electronics engineer... but that won't help me here.

- I need to build it in a small 2-car garage in Orange County, CA.

 

Luckily I live 30 minutes+ from Aircraft Spruce, 30 Minutes from John Wayne SNA Airport, 30 Minutes from Fullerton FUL airport, 30 Minutes from Long Beach LGB Airport (my favorate), and 30 Minutes+ from Corona Airport.

 

 

 

>Do you mean the CG envelope is smaller on the Cozy?

EZ and Cozy drivers have been handling this for years without problems, but you DO need to pay attention to C of G in a Canard.

 

For example, she sits nose down. Lift the nose before anyone gets in (or get out before lowering) and the nose want to come up. You have to be careful she doesnt tip over and fall on the prop / winglets.

 

Fly dual and drop off a 200lb passenger. You'll need to carry weights with you, and move them to the front before taking off solo.

 

Aft C of G beyond limits is bad in a conventional airplane - been there, done that. Aft out of limits C of G in a canard can be worse because it can put you in a position where the main wing stalls before the canard. This leads to a condition known as deep stall where there's no elevator response and no way to get the nose back down. The airplane sinks in a stable ass-down attitude.

 

Having said all the above, let me repeat that thousands of canard drivers have been living happily with these issues for 30 years with very few problems, expect during the early years. As someone said - every airplane has its advantage, disadvantages and limitations. You just have to know what they are and fly inside the envelope.

 

Hope this helps.

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