Moving the forum

[John Slade]

As many of you probably know, this forum is hosted by CozyDevelopment and administrated by myself and Nick Ugolini.

 

Cozy plans rights are being sold to Aircraft Spruce beginning in Jan '04. The cozyaircraft.com domain will also be transferred to Spruce, so Nat won't need the monthly server subscription.

 

So... the forum needs to find a new home.

Some of the alternatives are:

 

1. someone else pick up the tab for a server (about $20/month)

2. move it to an existing server that has enough space

3. merge it with homebuiltairplanes.com

4. disband it

5. offer it to Aircraft Spruce or Wicks

 

I've spoken to Jake, who runs the homebuiltaircraft forum and he's agreed to create a canard section there if thats what we want. We could fairly easily replicate the section structure, but transferring past messages would probably be difficult.

 

While this site has had much less traffic than I expected, I personally feel that this method of communication has many advantages over an email list. One of the important ones is that there aren't 1000 computers with you're email address in the address list just waiting for a virus.

 

I like the relaxed attitude of the people here and wouldn't want to see it disbanded.

 

So.... what do you guys want to do?

[dust]

I am committed to this forum, i think it is the right way to communicate to builders and more importantly to those surfing the web and just thinking about building.

 

I also think that nat made the RIGHT decision to sell to AS for a number of reasons, all positive, that i don't feel like going into now.

 

where do i send the check, i'll pay for a year in advance right now.

 

I don't understand the voting options, i voted for number two, is that right, to keep it as is and i also vote with my checkbook

 

on another note, i see ALLOT of guests stopping by, that is a very good thing

 

Mike

[Jon Matcho]

Why would/should not Aircraft Spruce assume responsibility of footing whatever bill is required to maintain the same service of Cozy Aircraft as existed prior to their acquisition? As a customer of both, I would only expect for my overall service to be improved, and not made less.

 

Jon #1185

[dust]

Nat doesn't mess with this forum, he adds to it but doesn't censor it, it's allot to ask of him and i feel allot more to ask of AS

[Dave Clifford]

I think we should ALL pitch in for the service. Everyone could kick in $5.00 a year to remain on the forum as a member or to join. Lurkers still free. The money left after paying the bills could be used for a yearly fly-in or get-together for members only.

[Jim Sower]

I voted (1), but have no idea who might want to bankroll it. I admire Dust's offer to tote the load himself, but doubt that will be necessary. I would not be surprised if ACS was willing to pick it up, but we would have to have a clear understanding that they don't mess with it at all (and if "we" thought they did, "we" would have the right to move it off their server - whoever "we" turns out to be). We might best insist that we administer it ourselves just to be safe. That's a lot of conditions to put on ACS or Wick's.

 

My preference would obviously be "free" on someone's server. If that wasn't possible or didn't work JUST EXACTLY RIGHT, I would be willing to part with $5 or $10 a year to keep it in the family. At $20/mo, fifty $5 donors would keep it alive. How much would it actually cost, and how many donors do you believe would actually step up and contribute?

[mplafleur]

I would certainly be willing to contribute if need be. But I think we should first see if ASC would be wiiling to support us.

 

BTW

 

Has anyone else NOT received any e-mails from the Cozy list in the last couple of days? Mine all stopped.

[tu54]

I don't think I'd like to see ACS pick it up. I fear a tendency for them to claim ownership of submittals and content.

[David Pierce]

I would not recommend that you put a vendor in charge of the forum. They have a different agenda from the users, and ultimately their purchasers. To keep the forum open and not subject to censorship, it needs to be in the hands of an unbiased webmaster. A small charge is not unreasonable, but if you allow some vendor advertizing (banners, etc.) it may offset the costs involved.

[John Slade]

Th problem with collecting a small fee is that someone has to administrate it. Not that I'm volunteering or anything, but I'd rather pay for the damn thing outright than mess with lots of $5 fee collections.

 

Its a good forum, and the consunsus seems to be "move it and keep it independant".

 

OK, two problems - where to? and Nick Ugolini has the software (which Nat bought) and the expertise to do the moving. Where are you, Nick?

[John Slade]

By the way, I recently started a new domain - CanardAviation.com to put my web site on and maybe run a part-time Canard repair & consulting business from.

 

I don't know if the server supports vbulletin. I'll find out. If it does, does anyone object to putting the forum there? There's bags of space, and I'm paying for it anyway.

[Jon Matcho]

I own Brickhouse Software and as a result have a number of options available for hosting high bandwidth applications.

 

I agree w/the points made here -- the forum and its content should be fully under the control of the builder community. The only point I disagree with is to charge anything to participate in a forum. Once that happens, activity will drop off to just a few subscribers.

 

Let me know what I can do so these forums remain open and active. I'll contribute whatever resources are required.

 

Jon #1185

[No4]

I would be sorry to see this forum dissappear. It is a great source of information. As someone rapidly running out of excuses to start building, if it went now I'd really lose out.

I'd be willing to slip a few bucks in an envelope, but would prefer to see it remain free. I agree that if it required a subscription traffic would drop off to a point that might not make it worthwile; and if it went commercial that may also ruin it.

 

And where would I be without my old china Jim to tell me where I'm going wrong?

[Jon Matcho]

I'm confident that with just a bit of attention this forum can be improved for all of us. I initially thought that the forum should be vendor-provided, but now realize that we'd be better off "by ourselves".

 

Having just set out with building a Cozy, I have a vested interest in having this site continue to exist as a free and open source of information for all builders and flyers (I no doubt will continue to need advice).

 

As far as I can tell, Nat must have purchased a vBulletin license and turned over administrative duties over to John Slade and Nick Ugolini. If this is true, it should be relatively painless to get the forums moved to a new location AND upgraded to use the latest vBulletin software (version 2.2.6 is running now; 2.3.2 available; 3.0 in test). It would be nice to take advantage of the new features available.

 

I mentioned that my day job is building custom software, and as a result I have ample resources available that allow me to consider funding this 'little project' for at least the period of my build so that it can be kept free for all to participate.

 

Thoughts everyone?

 

Jon #1185

[Jim Hann]

Jon,

 

It sounds like a good idea to me. I would vote for that idea, and worry about it again when the time comes that Jon flies (are you a fast builder Jon?) Fly safe folks.

 

 

Jim

[tu54]

Ok, two volunteers now to pick it up. Since Slade the rotary blade has a history with establishing and populating the forum, and volunteered first, I'll second his notion. Rick Maddy's server would be another good place, (as long as the background colors don't change, har har). Jon, welcome aboard fellow software slave, I've nothing against you, it's just a matter of seniority.

[John Slade]

One issue to keep in mind is the domain name. Right now we're /forum under cozyaircraft.com, which makes some sense. Put it under my domain (not sure yet if this can be done) and we're /forum under canardaviation.com which makes even more sense.

 

If Jon's going to host it, we'll need a new meaningful domain name and registration.

[dust]

OK so where do we send a donation, i would recommend cash only to save paperwork.

 

I take it money will be needed for site hosting and software updating, what 500 per year??

 

I have some sitting, burning a hole in my pocket, haven't really started spending on firewall backward yet, he he he

 

enjoy the build

 

Mike

[John Slade]

I agree with the others that say it has to be free to newcomers. Taking money changes things, even if from only one person.

 

Look at the aeroelectric and flyrotary lists. They're on a commercial server that's used for an aviation related commercial business. The business (Matronics, I think) gets mentioned at the bottom of every message, yet every year I get bombarded with fund raising messages. Many people donate. Personally I find this free advertising + fund-raising a bit distasteful. It just feels wrong somehow.

 

Put you're money back in you're pocket, Dust. You need to save up for avionics anyway.

 

If I host it on canardaviation.com I'll do it free in exchange for the notoriety.

[Jon Matcho]

How about this...

 

John Slade contributes the domain name and all costs required to ensure that www.canardaviation.com is registered and renewed for the next N years (where N >= my build + flying time -- I'm selfish, can't you tell?)

 

I will contribute the physical hardware and software resources required to actually run and maintain the site. I will cover the hardware, software, and related subscription costs to keep these forums running for FREE. John can "point" www.canardaviation.com at the new environment when ready.

 

Nick Ugolini and John Slade will continue to administer this site along with myself. I will apply software updates and backup the database, unless, of course, Nick is already doing this. Do we have backups happening? Scary if we don't... as well as a case for those favoring the e-mail list.

 

Finally, Dust will contribute his burning wallet directly to me.

 

Everyone should understand that the vBulletin forum software is somewhat involved. I'm sure Nick can attest that it's simple, but not nearly as simple as "point and click". It can be a beast to handle at times. Who does what should not be a decision made based on seniority.

 

The bottomline is that we all want these interactive forums to continue to exist without interruption or distraction. I'd like to see this happen if possible, and am willing to put some time in to make this happen.

 

Jon #1185

[unick3]

I too would like to see the Forum continue on since there was so much effort put into starting up it by John and myself. I feel the Forum fits in nicely as an alternative to the moderated email lists.

 

Originally, I purchased the software and set up the site (because I thought it was the right thing to do). Later, Nat agreed to pay for the software and host the site on his cozy web site. If Nat agrees to allow the movement of the Forum, then I would full support the transfer.

 

My vote is for a free forum as a subscription type list would certainly limit access and I would like to thank those who have stepped up to the plate with their offers of hosting sites.

 

Technically the forum is not hard to move. I had to do it twice when Nat changed servers. With a good hosting service, the administrators will move the entire site for you. Overall, it is basically only a file transfer process. The administration of the software is really easy and doesn’t require much effort. The only real requirement is that data basing software must be installed on the server to allow the forum database to work and bandwidth (we are way to small to have a problem with that). There has never been a specific pointer set to the Forum as the site just resides in a subdirectory of a main site. For example: if John hosts the site it would then be canardaviation.com\forum.

 

Overall, I feel this whole process should be fairly quick and painless when we determine who will take this bird under their wing…..

 

Nick

[ack]

The discussion as to the future direction of the forum seems fairly advanced, but for what its worth...

 

I for one would be more than happy to donate funds to a PayPal account or similiar to help keep the Cozy forum online in some guise. For me this forum is an invaluable resource as I begin construction, and in many ways reading the forum convinced me that I can actually do this.

[Jim Sower]

I could live quite comfortably with John Matcho's or John Slade's hosting. I would also not be against a one-time-per-year posting asking for $5 or $10 donations from anyone who felt like it. John and John and Nick could handle it.

 

Maybe anyone who flies could throw a "graduation party" and make a donation that reflected what he gained from the forum. I would prefer a stand alone site on a stand alone server like John M suggested, but a directory on John S's site would work perfectly well.

 

Do we need another election? Or do the Johns and Nick need to just decide amoung themselves and get it all done?

[John Slade]

Hi Nick,

Good to hear from you again.

 

Nat has agreed that the forum can be moved. He's shutting down his server in January. Since I do the Cozy web site (until January) I can easily do the move.

 

I appreciate the offer of space etc., Jon, but as I said, I'm paying for a server anyway, so there are no additional costs involved, and no need for a subscription or contribution of any kind.

 

If everyone is in agreement, I'll make arrangements to move the forum over to canardaviation.com sometime before Dec 31st. The address will be different, but everything else will remain as it is.

There will be a "closed for maintenence" message up for a couple of hours while the transfer takes place.

 

As for upgrades, I'm always a bit wary of them, but I suppose we should look into this. Nick - are we entitled to the latest version?

Regards,

John

 

Oh, by the way. I made a backup of the forum this morning. Jon's right. This should be done on a regular basis.

[Jon Matcho]

My offer was to host this forum on a dedicated server at a commercial data center with T-1 Internet access. We would have exclusive access to the hardware and software, and would NOT be rubbing bits and bytes up against 100 porn sites sharing the same hard drive.

 

The subscription I mentioned is for all the above plus software maintenance, a charge from Jelsoft/vBulletin so that we receive critical software patches and updates. Note that these are not gee-wiz features, but problems in their software. We are currently running 2.2.6 with 2.3.2 currently available. Looking at www.vbulletin.com, you can see that upgrading to the latest is "recommended as soon as possible" for security reasons (meaning, this site could be compromised if a jerk found it).

 

I just happened to be in a unique position to make such an offer. I was even thinking to take a step beyond and have an on-the-bench Web team I have put a nice wrapper of professional pages around the forum.

 

There's no doubt that the setup I offered would far exceed the quality and capability of a discount hosting package. I just can't help but feel that there are some other forces at work here. I am concerned where all of this is going, and whether this forum will end up indeed better than the e-mail list, or just evolve into some sort of disjoint clique. We each have the option of putting together our own personal sites.

 

I hope we can manage a decision as a true users group. We have the opportunity to establish a forum model by which all other builder groups would be judged. Cozy's are growing, and unfortunately, it seems to me, we have the potential to screw it up. Our current and future Cozy community deserves only the best. If we're to have a vote, let's manage a real vote where we understand all the options and implications. I still don't understand what I voted for in this poll.

 

Kindly and respectfully,

Jon #1185

String Puller at Brickhouse Software, Inc.