Loyalty

[macleodm3]

I am currently in the stage of modifying my attic to accomodate my future airplane build. At this stage in my research I've learned alot about the Cozy design and its comprehenssive plans.... today I learned that Aero Cad is selling plans for a "Plans Built Cozy" for approximately the same price as Nat. Does anyone have any insight on which source of plans has better support and also potential for future support? It can obviously take well over a "few" years to get one of these birds flying. I am also trying to determine the differences in the two sets of plans.. if any. The canopy design jumps out as a change... but what else is there?

[marbleturtle]

I'm in the same boat... I'm looking at the plans for the FG which has a larger interior than the SB (standard cozy). One thing that concerns me though is the section that says "Full size drawings: Not Included". Does the MKIV plans from Nat have full size drawings?

[dust]

Well a few months ago jeff was going out of business, now he is not. I don't know how many aerocanards are flying, jeff told kitplanes 8 when thier were none. The landing gear jeff made spread over time, the ones nat recommends don't.

I could go on, no need.

 

No comparison

 

Mike

[macleodm3]

Its good to see a view from both ends of the spectrum... one from a builder like me who hasn't yet started the build and one from a builder well into the project. I don't need any extra room over the Cozy, I'm 5'8" and my wife is 5'4" and we're both average size. I didn't notice the notation of "no full size drawings". Shouldn't be a problem cause we have cad and plotters available at work, but that will take some more research.

[marbleturtle]

35 Full sized drawings... N/A last line on the page.

 

http://www.aerocad.com/plansbuilt.htm

 

Sounds like the Cozy MKIV has the 35 full size drawings but the AeroCanard plans don't.

[rmaddy]

Yes, the Cozy plans include all the full size drawings.

 

A word of warning - there is some serious "friction" between Cozy Development Corp. (Nat) and Aerocad (Jeff). These two are always fighting about their "agreement".

 

Aerocad sells plans for an Aerocanard, not a Cozy. Of course, the plans are based largely on the Cozy.

 

I don't know what all the changes are and I'm not up on the support you would get from Aerocad but I have heard, second hand, that Jeff is a good guy.

 

I do know the Cozy support is outstanding. Between all the websites by builders, the cozy builders mailing list, this forum, and Nat himself, you will have absolutely no problems getting a question answered. I have corresponded with Cozy builders from all over the world and have met many of them at fly-ins and the like. It is a great bunch of people with a lot of ideas (not all good of course

 

I have never regretted choosing this plane and I am actually more and more happy about as I progress.

[dust]

No, he is selling COZY plans, why someone would buy them is beyond me, but he is. How you would build without full size plans is beyond me, maybe n/a means something else.

[marbleturtle]

When I find a Cozy to try on for size... I'll decide then whether to go with the MKIV or try the larger AeroCanard. But a few extra inches inside in every direction seems to be on the wish list of a lot of builders' web sites.

[Mevans]

Group;

 

While I have no opinion on the Cozy vs. Aerocanard debate because I am building a Long, I do have an opninion on Jeff. I built the molded spar style wings and canard for my project. I purchased all pre cut cores, spars etc... from Jeff. I can only say the craftsmanship of these items was excellant, and Jeff was always more than willing to answer my questions whenever I called him.. Not meaning to start a debate on this subject, but I feel the molded spar method is much easier and just as strong as the spar cap layup, with much less room to make errors. Chose whichever plans you like, but Jeff is a standup guy who provides a quality product. My .02.

 

Matt Evans

Clearwater, Florida

[Frank]

I’m sorry folks but this seems like blatant back stabbing to me, correct me if I’m wrong.

 

If this guy is allowed to sell these build manuals (with or without plans) then what’s to stop anyone else from ordering paperwork from Nat, building a website and putting the manual and plans online for folk to download. It wouldn’t be hard to do; many people have AutoCAD and word processing software.

 

I may not be building within the next year but I was going to purchase the manual/plans to prepare but I must ask myself, will this apparent breech of copyright effect Nat’s input to the Cozy world?

 

Let me know if I’m being a complete panic merchant

[Frank]

hehe, ignore the last post, I've just read the licence agreement.

 

see, ALWAYS get the facts before you open your gob (like me)

[marbleturtle]

I finally had a chance to talk to Nat last night. He said that the license agreement was originally to aid in building the kit that Aerocad is selling. Nat also said that he never gave Jeff permission to sell modified "Plans Built" plans of the Cozy (the AeroCanard FG) or exact plans of the Cozy (the AeroCanard SB). Nat also said that he obtained a copy of the Aerocad Plans for a pending law suite and that the Aerocad plans are from version 1 of the Cozy Plans and that none of the updates and revisions from the last 12 years are included. (Current plans are Version 3 with letter updates). Also, the extra rear passenger space comes from the removal of the NACA duct underneath replaced by less efficient (less airodynamic) armpit ducts.

 

>... Jeff is a stand up guy...

 

I know that there is always two sides to every dissagreement, but Nat is the owner of the 4-place Cozy MKIV design. He did the work (and continues to) and I'm not going to do anything that will give him "the short end of the stick."

[Mevans]

Being as I am a lawyer by trade, I will certainly agree there are many sides to any disagreement, certainly more than two, as you stated. I was only gviing an opinion as to Jeff's quality of workmanship on his products he sells,at least the products I purchased, and his customer support, which I found to be positive. Good luck with your "ungrounding"

 

Matt Evans

Clearwater, Florida

[marbleturtle]

>I was only gviing an opinion as to Jeff's quality of workmanship

 

... absolutely all contributions welcome from my stand-point. I received a e-mail back from Aerocad saying that they would send me information about builders in my area "sometime in the future." (This was before I spoke with Nat.) I am curious about whether or not I will hear back from them.

 

Sometimes small businesses will try to make themselves apear to be more successful then they are. (I did when I owned a small business... it helped get borderline customers.) That doesn't mean the quality of work is poor. It just raises "red flags" when basic business ethics apear to be violated.

[Wayne Hicks]

This character assassination of Mr. Russell and AeroCad by those who DON'T know Jeff, have never done business with Jeff, or have never watched the man tirelessly answer question after question in the hot Sun-N-Fun sun free of charge.....well, it's a CRYING SHAME.

 

Talk about the plans, talk about what's included and not included. That's fair game. Talk about the workmanship of a part. That's fair game too. But don't drag the man's personal character through the mud just because of something you might have heard through the grapevine. You're picking a fight when you do that, and I'm sure there are lots of builders who'd stand in line with me.

 

As to the "loyalty" subject that this thread is supposed to be about, you'd be hard-pressed to find two men more passionate about canard building and about their respective companies and products than Nat Puffer and Jeff Russell. They both have well-deserved places in our community. I get nothing but GREAT support from Co-Z Development. I get nothing but GREAT support from Jeff Russell. (Yeah, I'm one of the ones asking questions in the hot Florida sun. All for the price of a nose cone...) Both are of high moral character. They just have differing opinions on how to build a 4-place canard. That should remain between the two of them.

 

Now back to our regularly scheduled program,

 

Wayne Hicks

Cozy IV Plans #678

Chapter 23 Engine

[John Slade]

Well said, Wayne. I agree totally.

[marbleturtle]

My concerns are not centered around the products he makes... everyone has very positive things to say about his support and quality of product. But like the original post, I am concerned about the plans-built plans he is selling.