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Suggestions for Tub Purchase Considerations

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I'm in the process of considering adopting plans and an in-progress Cozy Mk IV. The short story is that I have located a builder who is selling plans and a completed tub (I've only seen the pictures at this point). Anyone have suggestions about the questions to ask, criteria to consider before purchasing a project completed to this point. I'm also curious about what would be considered a reasonable price range for the plans and tub considering that both are in good condition.


"Men become wise just as they become rich, more by what they save than by what they receive." - Wilbur Wright

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Good workmanship is pretty obvious. I would try to establish just where the builder stopped in the plans and how the builder insured that each pertinent step was covered up to that point. If the workmanship looks sloppy, check some of the dimensions. A tub is a tub.


-Kent
Cozy IV N13AM-750 hrs, Long-EZ-85 hrs and sold

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A tub might only save you 4-6 weeks of work. That 4-6 is within the tolerance of building duration for one of these aircraft. If the workmanship isn't desirable, don't waste your time IMHO.

 

If you want a nice project, http://longezforsale.com/ looks to be a beauty.


Cheers,

 

Wayne Blackler

IO-360 Long EZ

VH-WEZ (N360WZ)

Melbourne, AUSTRALIA

http://v2.ez.org/feature/F0411-1/F0411-1.htm

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Since I've not had a chance to review plans for a Cozy MkIV, I'm not sure which chapters are completed in the building of a tub. Are these chapters 4, 5, 6, and 7 or do those chapters include more of the fuselage than just the tub?


"Men become wise just as they become rich, more by what they save than by what they receive." - Wilbur Wright

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A tub might only save you 4-6 weeks of work. That 4-6 is within the tolerance of building duration for one of these aircraft. If the workmanship isn't desirable, don't waste your time IMHO.

 

If you want a nice project, http://longezforsale.com/ looks to be a beauty.

Thanks for this information on the time savings. You mentioned "the tolerance of building duration". Is it safe to assume that you are figuring about 10 hours/week - a savings of 40 to 60 hours? The subject of time estimates for building various sections is interesting to me. I've seen the estimate of 2500 hours for total building time, but I haven't seen a breakdown. Does such a breakdown exist?

 

I appreciate the information on the LongEZ; though, I'm primarily interested in the Cozy for its side-by-side seating and extra space.


"Men become wise just as they become rich, more by what they save than by what they receive." - Wilbur Wright

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Yow, Wayne, I dont know of anybody who's built a tub in six weeks. Maybe a LongEze? If a typical guy builds a chapter a month he is going pretty dang fast. 6 months of concerted effart is a typical tub. Good luck with that. Theres guys out there been working to finish the tub and have got 3-5 years and still not finished, so certainly your mileage may vary. If you are a guy who wants to be able to say, at the end, I built even last piece of this airplane...build the tub. If you wanna save 6-8 months, buy one. I think this is a long enuf project as it is, and if you can save some major time buy buying some components, it might be the difference between completing, or not. In this, I have just described myself. Buy a turtleback from Featherlight or Aerocad as well.

I would say just run levels for and aft and side to side and if it is within 3/32, buy it. There's Cozy's out there that the canard tilts one ways and the wings the other, and they fly. No need to bring your anal, micrometer. You can true things up all along the way through construction.

I think the 2500 hours was published to sell the plans, more like 2800 or 3000 from listening to the ground.

Tonto also hear that squaw that is moody and not into airplane thing, squash idea and no make good juju for 48 moons of fiddling in garage shaped teepee. YMMV.:mad:

Welcome, and we all wish you the best. It's a great dream.:)


Self confessed Wingnut.

Now think about it...wouldn't you rather LIVE your life, rather than watch someone else's, on Reality T.V.?

Get up off that couch!!! =)

 

Progress; Fuselage on all three, with outside and inside nearly complete. 8 inch extended nose. FHC done. Canard finished. ERacer wings done with blended winglets. IO540 starting rebuild. Mounting Spar. Starting strake ribs.

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In the Long-EZ plans it estimates it at around 500 hours. :D


T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18

Velocity/RG N951TM

Mann's Airplane Factory

We add rocket's to everything!

4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done

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Yow, Wayne, I dont know of anybody who's built a tub in six weeks. Maybe a LongEze? If a typical guy builds a chapter a month he is going pretty dang fast. 6 months of concerted effart is a typical tub. Good luck with that. Theres guys out there been working to finish the tub and have got 3-5 years and still not finished, so certainly your mileage may vary. If you are a guy who wants to be able to say, at the end, I built even last piece of this airplane...build the tub. If you wanna save 6-8 months, buy one. I think this is a long enuf project as it is, and if you can save some major time buy buying some components, it might be the difference between completing, or not. In this, I have just described myself. Buy a turtleback from Featherlight or Aerocad as well.

I would say just run levels for and aft and side to side and if it is within 3/32, buy it. There's Cozy's out there that the canard tilts one ways and the wings the other, and they fly. No need to bring your anal, micrometer. You can true things up all along the way through construction.

I think the 2500 hours was published to sell the plans, more like 2800 or 3000 from listening to the ground.

Tonto also hear that squaw that is moody and not into airplane thing, squash idea and no make good juju for 48 moons of fiddling in garage shaped teepee. YMMV.:mad:

Welcome, and we all wish you the best. It's a great dream.:)

Thanks. I greatly appreciate the second opinion!

"Men become wise just as they become rich, more by what they save than by what they receive." - Wilbur Wright

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If the tub is 500 hrs of a 2800 manhour project, something isn't adding up. . . My total build time topped 9000 hours, but is full of modifications stem to stern so is not representative of a plans built aeroplane. I took a look at my log, the per-plans tub however was 152 manhours..

 

I recall talking to a noted defiant builder and suggesting the structure might be like building 2 Long EZ's. He disagreed and said you only have to wet out a little more area in a similar layup schedule. It all translates to time on a job for which you must continue with these aircraft anyway. When you skin a fuselage, you skin a fuselage... varie-eze or defiant. No stopping.

 

If it takes a month to build the bulkhead chapter, I guess 6-8 months for a tub would be conservative. Bulkheads, I completed in a weekend.


Cheers,

 

Wayne Blackler

IO-360 Long EZ

VH-WEZ (N360WZ)

Melbourne, AUSTRALIA

http://v2.ez.org/feature/F0411-1/F0411-1.htm

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Good workmanship is pretty obvious. I would try to establish just where the builder stopped in the plans and how the builder insured that each pertinent step was covered up to that point. If the workmanship looks sloppy, check some of the dimensions. A tub is a tub.

I've checked with the builder and he has completed through chapter 7 and about 2/3 of the way through chapter 8.

 

So, if I understand the prices from Aircraft Spruce correctly:

 

Cozy Mark IV Plans: $500

Chapter 4 - Fuselage Bulkhead: $612

Chapter 5 - Fuselage Sides: $363.80

Chapter 6 - Fuselage Assembly: $264.13

Chapter 7 - Fuselage Exterior: $178.95

Sub-Total: $1918.91

 

Chapter 8 - Fuselage Headrests/Heat Duct: $544.51

 

Since I'm not sure how much of Chapter 8 is included I'm not sure how to calculate the current investment, but for estimation sake, 50% adds another 272.25. So, it looks like the cost of the materials thus far is about $2200.

 

Is it reasonable to assume that if the workmanship is good (might be tough for me to assess since I don't yet have experience in similar construction techniques) then such a project might be worth say half of the materials cost invested up to this point - about $1100?


"Men become wise just as they become rich, more by what they save than by what they receive." - Wilbur Wright

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Cozy Mark IV Plans: $500

Chapter 4 - Fuselage Bulkhead: $612

Chapter 5 - Fuselage Sides: $363.80

Chapter 6 - Fuselage Assembly: $264.13

Chapter 7 - Fuselage Exterior: $178.95

Sub-Total: $1918.91

.....

project might be worth say half of the materials cost invested up to this point - about $1100?

Rule of thumb I've always used: you pay for materials and get the builder's labor for free. But a lot of tubs are traded so they don't command any premium and some people just want to dump them. If you pay for plans and materials, it's a fair deal IMHO but who said life is fair. :bad: Depends also on any extras you're getting, too.


-Kent
Cozy IV N13AM-750 hrs, Long-EZ-85 hrs and sold

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Rule of thumb I've always used: you pay for materials and get the builder's labor for free. But a lot of tubs are traded so they don't command any premium and some people just want to dump them. If you pay for plans and materials, it's a fair deal IMHO but who said life is fair. :bad: Depends also on any extras you're getting, too.

Thanks, Kent.


"Men become wise just as they become rich, more by what they save than by what they receive." - Wilbur Wright

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