New angle of dangle

[Edge 513]

I was talking to a friend about something I did and since I don't have a website, figured I would post it here..as this makes a lot of sense to me. [Obviously- since I did it] All the reasons are included in what I wrote to him.

Letter and pictures follow-

 

Ted,

I showed you the surgery one first as a teaser=]

Yea, you'e right, maybe with all of my alterations I can't call it a Cozy..but I am building a Cozy- just not "My Dads Cozy"....to coin a phase..

 

Three things here.

One. This observation from flying in a Cozy with a vertical Glass flat[EFIS/EMS] type screen- the angle for non glare on a flat screen is not optimal on the stock panel with it being vertical. What you see in the daylight is a reflection of your belly and if you are wearing a light colored shirt or jacket it really reflects off he screen.

By changing the angle of the instrument panel to be at or closer or on a 90 degree sightline from your eyes- you change that and you don't get the body reflection. The screen nits are plenty bright for the slight upward tilt- that isn't a problem. And of course theres still a glare shield above it-which can be left plans dimension overhang[and cover the glass panels even more due to the inset of the angle].

Two. The second benefit is that with the rotation of the plans panel [ie cutting it off and simply rotating it forward, the top of the I.P. panel is lower, so you see out the front better [as if one really needs to- plans is fine] and you haven't cut down your panel space..in fact if you want a taller panel to fit a bigger screen EFIS in it- that is doable [and I did that to fit the huge MGL type screens in] and it comes out still lower than the plans panel top.

Third. As you see in the pic, I cut the break in the panel where there is an unusable portion next to the armrests. This cut spot angles the opening forward from plans and allows me even with my longer legs to be able to draw my legs up and sit with my knees in front of me[with a 1 inch seat cushion] for an alternate leg position[which let me say, having experienced having only one leg position for a 4-1/2 to 5 hour flight would be a welcome option]. Shorter leg fliers in the 5 foot 8" tall range wouldn't care about this.

Heres a pic of the plans instrument panel inserted on the angle before I rebuilt mine taller with a spacer. It is only set in rough, with nothing cleaned up so it is not quite positioned right,or 'pretty'..but pretty close.[note the biased cuts on the verticals in the center support.

Simple as pie with a Fein tool...simple as pie.

Theres more to mine than just this picture, but I think this might become the new Instrument panel arrangement for everybody for people wanting Flat panel Glass cockpits- for all the reasons above. Its easy to do, and its got good legs.

Later fellow Dood,

=]

[Marc Zeitlin]

By changing the angle of the instrument panel to be at or closer or on a 90 degree sightline from your eyes- you change that and you don't get the body reflection.....

True, and with an EMS system that doesn't care about it's mounting angle, that's fine (I assume you're talking about the one in my plane). But...

 

... I think this might become the new Instrument panel arrangement for everybody for people wanting Flat panel Glass cockpits- for all the reasons above. Its easy to do, and its got good legs.

You might have wanted to check with the EFIS manufacturers before modifying your panel (and before recommending this mod to others). They all have gyros in them, and the gyros assume a vertical panel (within a couple of degrees, in flight attitude). Most EFIS's and gyro devices explicitly say that the panel must be both vertical and non-tilted (side to side - again for pointing the display at the pilot when off to the side). If you don't do this, the gyros will not read correctly (axes get coupled when they shouldn't be, at best, and the readings are just plain wrong, at worst).

 

If the EFIS has a remote gyro system - NOT in the panel mounted box - then this could work fine, but otherwise, unless the EFIS MFG says that tilting the panel is OK, I wouldn't do it.

[TMann]

Edge ..... what did you use for your angle?

I looked at this and figured it at about 15 degrees.

I think the CozyGirrrl(s) came up with the same.

[Lynn Erickson]

One. This observation from flying in a Cozy with a vertical Glass flat[EFIS/EMS] type screen- the angle for non glare on a flat screen is not optimal on the stock panel with it being vertical. What you see in the daylight is a reflection of your belly and if you are wearing a light colored shirt or jacket it really reflects off he screen.

By changing the angle of the instrument panel to be at or closer or on a 90 degree sightline from your eyes- you change that and you don't get the body reflection. The screen nits are plenty bright for the slight upward tilt- that isn't a problem. And of course theres still a glare shield above it-which can be left plans dimension overhang[and cover the glass panels even more due to the inset of the angle].

=]

8 Degrees is the standard aircraft panel forward tilt angle. many instruments are made for this angle but they do cost more. some of the cert. Efis panels can be made for this tilt. not sure about Dyon and the like. standard steam gauge Gyro's are avalible in 8 degree forward tilt

[Cozy Girrrl]

We could tilt our panel because it only carries the displays, not the inertial components, the new G4 version of the BMA system has the AHRS attached and may not be happy at this angle though Greg has said the system is supposed to compensate and solve for this internally up to a certain angle (do not know about G4, but if it has to solve for this I would assume that means more processor time, so why aggrevate it?)

...Chrissi

[Edge 513]

Back again so I can respond.

Thanks Marc and that is a good point.

Anybody should check with their EFIS manuf about this. The MGL has a separate AHRS so I was in the clear about this. As far as other manufacturers, people will need to find that out. My first choice was GRT, and they were also.

About Marcs EMS. I must say that it was the experience of flying with Marc over LONG distance that was truly inspiring to me in regards to the CozyIV. Just wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. His plane is Fast, comfortable and efficient. I can't even imagine what flying for a 5 hour way point leg would be like in a puppet-straight seat like in a Cessna. There isn't much one can do to make this a better airplane. Just some subtle things. To my mind, flying with the reflection of my belly in his EFIS was probably one of the only drawbacks to the experience-... and also wanting to move my legs a little more. The reflection is less noticeable with a dark shirt on. To some it might not even be really noticeable. But as an aside- if a guy is building it from scratch and this is helpful on 3 different "fronts", for me I think it is a worthwhile, easy, modification.

Tmann-Mine came out to 13 degrees..but then again that was with my projected 1 inch seat cushionage and my torso length. YMMV.

Also, these EFIS' and EMS' are not as deep back in the panel [the MGL Odyssey is only 3 inches] so that allows the use of less space in the avionics bay. Remember most radios and transponders are still deep though so they have to be kept low. My .02 cents.

I enclose a picture of Don's beautiful CozyIV panel as an example of reflection.

[TMann]

Yeah ........ I haven't cut my panel yet. The more I read the more I'm inclined (no pun intened) to tilt it at 7 degrees an make an inset for the glass panel with the additional tilt of about another 7 degrees.

I don't know if that would work but I'm a little reluctant to remove the possibilty of any gyro (no ...... not the sandwich) instruments for backup.

 

Don's panel looks great but I see what you mean about the glare.

(Drapes maybe? .................. nah!)

[Edge 513]

This my panel.

Marc really schooled me on having two separate EFIS's and AHRS and that is why in addition to the MGL Odessey's there is the G4 lite VERTICALLY in the center stepped stack. No to the steam gauges. The G4 lite is vertical due to what others have been talking about here.

My center stepped stack is CF 282 and the sides around the MGL's will be the zebra wood like on Dons panel I just posted a pic of. [Whatever that wood is, anyway]....I had an old custom Weatherby 7mm that had a stock out of it and when I saw Dons panel..I said yep thats GOT to go on my panel. Just beautiful.

[TMann]

Lookin' good Dennis!

[TMann]

I have my panel on the back burner as this will be the last thing I will address. I have not spent a lot of time on the subject so here is my question.

What doesn't a glass panel setup do?

With my Long-EZ I'm really limited as to the amount of space I have to work with. I believe the glass panel would conserve a ton of space but what would I have to add in the inerest of backup/redundancy or just plain unsuported features.

Dennis, Marc, CG ..... any feedback here?

[Edge 513]

I have my panel on the back burner as this will be the last thing I will address. I have not spent a lot of time on the subject so here is my question.

What doesn't a glass panel setup do?

With my Long-EZ I'm really limited as to the amount of space I have to work with. I believe the glass panel would conserve a ton of space but what would I have to add in the inerest of backup/redundancy or just plain unsuported features.

Dennis, Marc, CG ..... any feedback here?

Being as how my hinge design projects into the middle of the avionics bay, and is splitting 20 inches at the center-line of F28- and with my panel tilt aspect...and the fact that I am starting the foam blocks for the canopy deck and all...I needed to verify how everything interacted. That is my reason for working on panel equipment depth ideas. If a guy was just leaving his I.P. vertical, and staying with front hinges out next to the longerons... no big deal to think about it ahead of time, theres a boat load of room with the consolidation of instruments into a glass cockpit. Yea, you do have to mount some support equip as you wish [AHRS/Air data] in the avionics bay as well...just not adhered to the panel back.

 

You'll have to just check on Efis' do's and don'ts vs. cost benefits per each manuf. They, of course range from being just the basic six-pack to being able to scratch ones back. [i prefer my wife for the latter]. Some HAVE GPS that comes with the EFIS some do not and need to be driven by a separate GPS unit. As I see it you give nothing away when going with a quality glass cockpit. [flame suit on.] You do gain some nice features and capabilities. I think of it as a consolidating of information and a presenting of that information that would take getting used to by the traditional 'six-pack' fliers. None of this is important to the simple flying of the airplane in clear skies over familiar territory. To the barnstormer/traditional aviator- this all seems probably ridiculous as they probably don't even look at a panel much- they just go and fly!! I have heard of this remark.

But,theres a lot of products out there, but I would say settling on a Manuf that has a lot of product /units out being used by John Q. Public and has a good track record, with upgrade ability down the line, is my interest. I hope that by the time I buy the G4- BMA will be happy with it. [i haven't heard much except what was just posted here by Wayne etc- maybe they are already near happy with it] I like that unit because it has all the Efis and Nav/GPS and EMS information available in one decent sized [for my application] package. The only thing better for that unit,for me, would be if the AHRS could be separate from the box.

Good luck in the hunt. Dynon is great. GRT is great. I personally think with the 15,000 instruments that MGL has shipped...there is an application curve that has been pretty well gone through...they are a great choice. From what I hear the G4 series BMA's are great or getting there.[enough that I would like one] so its all a grab bag. As I said before, Marc made some good points about having two different driven systems in ones panel to me..and I personally think that even steam gauges as a backup just takes up a lot of space unnecessarily...and cost-wise is a wash with the Dynon D10A pricing so similar to the steam. If a flier needs just VFR instrumentation- maybe you don't want a backup system..the six pack didn't have a 'backup'. One last nice feature about the MGL is that all the engine monitoring connects to a unit on the firewall and only one cable comes forward to the I.P.

 

One point to consider is that the I.P. in a Cozy is so close to you, a 7 inch diag screen is very good in its presentation of information. The bigger screens, 8.4"and 10.4 in the OP Tech units and the 10.4 [or bigger?]in the BMA and 10.4"MGL's are probably only a little more useful in that they separate printing and elements on the screen a bit more for us [like me] 5o year old myoptic types...and to my view that is helpful to me.

 

TMann- enclosed is a pic of a GREAT Long EzE panel....Drool.

Also enclosed is a pic of the back of the Odyssey unit.

Last pic is a special moment that Marlin Perkins captured, regarding the never ending balance found in nature.

Oh, also is a pic of Chris E's panel with his GRT's and what not- to give you a flying IFR panel[he flys a lot of IFR he says] idea.

[Cozy Girrrl]

Dennis, I love your sketch, we may have been twins separated at birth because I have an eerily similar one from when I was working at BMA. When I showed it to Greg he said they did not have a dual panel EFIS/one, I said "Not yet", same goes for the EFIS Lite sized to fit the radio stack

...Chrissi

[Edge 513]

Pretty crazy, eh? Thanks Chrissi/Tmann for the remarks. I always am amazed at the duplicate/ triplicate etc of strings of thought when dealing with a common design requirement. I went to your website a few minutes ago- and wah lah- this is what you have done....=] Drumroll/cymbal crash. ba-boom.

One nice thing about these large screens and being independent[as you obviously know] is one can have all the EFIS and engine management info on the left side and on the right side have an entire screen size GPSmoving map or switch for co-pilot flying or call up all the airport info and Fbo database...on a large screen for my tri-focals...it will be nice. For 3500. bucks per side[plus an 1100.00 AHRS] it is like stealing something. Zow!

Yea, I know the pc basher guys are cringing. Remember the separate G4

Oh, and they are adding XM weather and flightplannerFM in the spring....

 

I did paste the two screens together on the table to see the effect..

[Cozy Girrrl]

XM and flight planner in the spring... WHICH spring?

...Chrissi

[Edge 513]

It is easier if I just post my emails from MGL regarding my questions. Rainier is trying to sell his product, but also seems pretty candid about it all.

He also is very above board, regarding answering peoples questions about what MGL is offering. There is nothing here that is privileged information.

At what is offered NOW..it is a great value. Let alone with what is on down the line. This is exactly what you were talking about Chrissi- everybody should wait to see what is coming, due to the "EFIS wars" for market position in the next year or two.

These two emails are just Microsoft notepad format.

MGL questions one.txt

MGL questionss two(2).txt

[CFernandez]

You might have wanted to check with the EFIS manufacturers...

The GRT Sport (internal AHRS) can take up to a 15 degree panel tilt. The Horizon has external AHRS(s) and can take a 35 degree panel tilt.

 

The important part of the installation is that the AHRS and magnetometer are installed in parallel planes, no pun intented.

 

(I work for GRT if you wondered.)

[CFernandez]

What doesn't a glass panel setup do?

 

That's hard to answer. What do you want it to do?

 

Its like thinking about building and flying an airplane. Picking a particular design for a particular mission is where one should start.

 

There are enough EFI out there with varying capabilities that you can do anything from just engine monitoring to fully coupled approaches.

 

Most EFI will have primary flight instruments to start, from there the sky is not the limit.

[Wayne Hicks]

If the panel is tilted forward, the switch row at the top of the panel will be less wide as it gets closer to the canopy apex (the pointy part of the canopy glass/deck interface).

[Edge 513]

Let me dig out a picture to show this.

Actually there is no change to the top center area of the panel widthwise or its shape height wise-these pics have the original panel top, just the lower panel is sliced and spacered up 3/4". This area is well within the bubble. These pics are after the second "trial' canopy cut.. next will be the taping and cutting down to the 1/4 inch line. The old first cuts will be lost in that trimming.

I think its working for me...in gaining the 3/4 inch spacer [seen between the paper templates] the net top of the whole I.P gained 1/8 inch. I will probably cut the top center area down 3/8" anyway- as it seemed a bit tall and I won't be using the Cozy prefab electric panel I don't think.

Theres time for that later...but it would be nice to see over the nose a bit easier for my short-stuff spouse.

[argoldman]

Edge,

 

It looks like you are making more concessions to your short-stuff spouse. Apparently she sleeps leaning to the right during most of your flights (like mine does) since the orientation of the co-pilot's EFIS is rotated 90 degrees clockwise.

 

ZZZZZZZ