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rsrguy3

Comprehensive mods list

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I'm in the prebuild process, and as such, I'm starting this thread to get the most complete list of mods possible. What are mods you builders installing, or planning to install? I'm hopeing to compile all suitable mods before hand, so I can make all necissary notes to my plans/manual. Here is a list to kick off the discussion.

1. landing gear

2. fuze width

3. canopy configurations

4. nose jobs

5. wing span vs canard span

6. fuel tank size

7. reinforcements to fuze floor/in conjunction w/widening

8. vac bagging alternative composites into the spar

9. vac bagging skins

10. observation ports in side to floor transition of fuze.

11. lengthening fuze-long legged folks

12. power

I hope you all get the idea, all mods are up for discussion and debate, right now it's all hypothetical. My approach is such that once I start slinging epoxy

I'll be locked in and won't be improvising on the fly. As my mod notes will be finalized and organized into the chapters as needed.

 

I hope this thead will get some serious response from those of you already makin stink and dust. Thanx, Guy in Utah

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Well here's an old post to get the ball rolling. This was directed more at the Long-EZ crowd. I've incorporated many of these into my build, but there was a lot of nasty feedback on the original post. I'm not saying any of it was justified but it's a good bet you'll be reading some of that soon :D :

Jeff Russell and Velocity's ailerons are about 7.2" longer, and Dick Rutan's Long-EZ is ~18" longer, and the Infinity 1 ailerons are 2 feet longer. If you add more than 7.2", you should add a 4th aileron hinge.

 

Dick Rutan stated after building the Big Rudders in vogue today, that he wished he would have made them full length, partly because it would have been easier to build, and that these planes need all the rudder they can get, particularly since they do not have nose wheel steering.

The infinity rudders are not only full span, but operate like a split flap.

 

The primary reason for bottom winglets is to protect the multiple plies of the winglet in the event of a ground loop because the mains are so narrow, particularly the Long-EZ and Cosy III. Grinding off those outer plies in an accident would be a major fix.

They also add a little bit of yaw stability at very slow flight, but this was before a rudder was ever installed. The Long-EZ originally had a Rhino Rudder at that time. Otherwise they are just drag. You ever seen a canard do really slow flight these days?

The bottom winglet also keeps the plane from showing the pilot the typical warning of wing rock telling you you're going to stall if you are crazy enough to fly 2+" aft of the aft CG limit. I'd rather have a warning.

The moral of the story, if you have narrow gear and/or fly the aircraft out of the CG envelope, some sort of bottom winglet is desirable. The Infinity does not have a bottom winglet, but the outer plies of the winglet are Kevlar (so is the entire fuselage bottom) in case of landing off field with the gear UP. The Jeff Russell smaller bottom winglets are cute, and will do all the above.

 

Conduits in walls and floor for brake lines, rudder cables & hydraulic lines.

I'm not telling you this, but do not shorten the canard 6" (3" per side).

 

I have single point refueling too with just a ON/OFF/Reserve fuel valve with one-way check valves from the header tank to the strake tanks to the large single sump under the rear seat. Hard points in my wings for removable pods and pylons for my baggage, golf clubs, extra fuel, Electronic Warfare equipment, missiles, anti-personnel mines, etc.

 

I've recompiled what I could remember and ideas I've searched through the past 8+ years of e-mails. Sooo, in no particular order, which you've probably read or heard about some of them already, are the following:

 

* some are widening their cockpit as much as 6", which lengthens the canard and center section spar accordingly;

* 200+ HP engine -- I like turbo'd, too;

* a constant speed, 3 blade, prop;

* internal rudder horns withOUT the spring;

* elevators made from 716 UNI Carbon -- makes them MUCH easier to

balance.

* the aileron counter balance is a steel tube with a 1/4" ID that took

to a lead melting place and had them fill it up with lead. Then if it's

too heavy, I just drill a little out of each end until I get the ailerons to balance;

* rudder pedals hanging from the ceiling with horizontal Master Brake

Cylinders with 2 remote reservoirs. If your using an oleo nose strut,

you will be able to steer -- even though guys should be able to add the

steering hook up themselves

* Matco wheels and brakes;

* Michelin tires and tubes;

* 5052-0 Dash 3 brake lines, then Dash 3 stainless steel braided hoses at each end. If you must go with plastic lines, only use Nylo-Seal instead of Nylaflow tubing;

* infinity aileron wing root and flight control bearings;

* infinity HOTAS stick grips and throttle handle & quadrant;

* infinity steerable oleo nose strut;

* cut only 3 canard cores, not 5, and make the spar cap and shear web

full length -- it's easier to build;

* don't cut the canard the extra 6" shorter that recently came out;

* use 77 3M spray adhesive to join all foam cores -- can pick it up at Home Depot. You can hot wire right through it, BUT make *sure* you join the cores CORRECTLY, or they'll come apart inside the skins;

* make the canopy pivot forward;

* make rudders full span (infinity are a split flap style rudder -- call for details), THEN add the top cap;

* minimal or no lower winglet (see AeroCad's plane);

* at least 7.2+" longer ailerons (which Velocity and AeroCad does) --

Dick Rutan's are ~18", infinity are 2 feet longer;

* conduits in walls and floor for brake lines, rudder cables &

hydraulic lines;

* infinity Retractable Main Gear Installation Manual has a few good tips

about doing BID tapes, and other lay-ups, on aluminum foil;

* if doing infinity retracts, no need install any of the fixed gear hardware

or bulkheads;

* make the sump under the rear seat;

* use single-point-refueling, 2 one-way check valves and 1 fuel cap --

saves money, is safer, and easier to do.

* don't install foam wedges in front of center section spar in strakes

-- that's where the retracts go. If no retracts, still don't do it;

* peel-ply everything;

* Use Poly-Fiber filler and primer;

* use Pre-Oiler / Back-Up oil pumps;

* get Bob Nuckolls wiring book ( http://www.AeroElectric.com ), and go

to his seminar.

 

 

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Now that is what I'm talking about. I have a great appreciation for what was started by Burt, but my view is it was just that-- a start. Burt has moved on with his carreer and I admire him for that. But I believe many have moved beyond a healthy respect to deafication. I'm hopeing this thread will be able to transcend all sacred cows. I also hope, eventually the community will be able to support mods with engineering. But for now I'm begging all subscribers to this thread- please don't judge, rather offer substance in your arguments for or against any mods, (with out disdain please) that are discussed.

 

Guy

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* use 77 3M spray adhesive to join all foam cores -- can pick it up at Home Depot. You can hot wire right through it, BUT make *sure* you join the cores CORRECTLY, or they'll come apart inside the skins;

Given the formulation changes to 3M 77 it's looking like this is no longer feasible, as I gather there now a component (acetone?) that is a solvent for the wing foam.


Craig K.

Cozy IV #1457

building chapter seven!

http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/chasingmars/index.html

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Given the formulation changes to 3M 77 it's looking like this is no longer feasible, as I gather there now a component (acetone?) that is a solvent for the wing foam.

I think you're right about that one Craig. I bought some cans of 78 as a substitute but I can't say that it works very well with the 1.6 lb foam. It way work better with some of the other foams.

I'm thinking micro when possible.

 

'THE LIST' is just a collection of things others have delved into. Not everything on the list is to be considered valid or endorsed. It's just 'THE LIST'. :D

 

There are things that are not on 'THE LIST' that other builders have done ....... however many of them are no longer with us to expound on what they learned.

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I think you're right about that one Craig. I bought some cans of 78 as a substitute but I can't say that it works very well with the 1.6 lb foam. It way work better with some of the other foams.

I'm thinking micro when possible.

 

'THE LIST' is just a collection of things others have delved into. Not everything on the list is to be considered valid or endorsed. It's just 'THE LIST'. :D

 

There are things that are not on 'THE LIST' that other builders have done ....... however many of them are no longer with us to expound on what they learned.

I bought about 20 cans of the old stuff when I heard they were changing it. I was into rc at the time and 77 was the stuff to use when making skins adhere to foam. I still have 19 cans left.

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'THE LIST' is just a collection of things others have delved into. Not everything on the list is to be considered valid or endorsed. It's just 'THE LIST'. :D

Very good of you to point that out. "THE LIST" would be better referred to as "yet another list" or "TMann's list" or "a list", etc. The point you make that's most important is that there is no designer or official group in place to approve modifications -- you're on our own and so everyone needs to manage and accept their own risks.

Jon Matcho :busy:
Canard Zone Developer & Builder
Rebuilding Quickie Tri-Q200 N479E
Building Cozy Mark IV+ (widened rear)

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Very good of you to point that out. "THE LIST" would be better referred to as "yet another list" or "TMann's list" or "a list", etc. The point you make that's most important is that there is no designer or official group in place to approve modifications -- you're on our own and so everyone needs to manage and accept their own risks.

It's just a copy of another post. It's not "TMann's list" it's just a list of mods that appearred on another forum. Like anyting else that's posted on the internet, it's food for thought ........ nothing more.

 

Also (as originally stated) "THE LIST" always has a tendancy to stir up a bee's nest. :D

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Does this forum have a wiki section? This is exactly the sort of post that would make for good wiki-conversion material once it's gets exhaustive/exhausted/exhausting :D

 

Anyhow, with the big *UNPROVEN* flag, I'll add my passenger side "ski tunnel" mod.


Craig K.

Cozy IV #1457

building chapter seven!

http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/chasingmars/index.html

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Food for thought. Exactly what I had hoped for. You guy's have to remember that while I have read extensively, I have not been a memeber of the build/flying community, consequently I'm trying to learn as much as possible.

That lack of assosiation has left me without access to other debates on the topic so if this thread seems repetative, by all means please add links to those other mods and debates. Much appreciated-Guy

 

 

Also if any one thinks we'll have more input if posted on other threads in the zone please tell me how to do this.

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I'll add my passenger side "ski tunnel" mod.

:( Craig, could you be more specific?

My long-EZ is a Tandem so how do I mount the "ski tnnel" mod on a "passenger side" when I don't have one?

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Also if any one thinks we'll have more input if posted on other threads in the zone please tell me how to do this.

Just do the best you can and we'll be good. Let me know if you feel there should a new sub-forum, or moving of a sub-forum to a more general area.

Jon Matcho :busy:
Canard Zone Developer & Builder
Rebuilding Quickie Tri-Q200 N479E
Building Cozy Mark IV+ (widened rear)

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:( Craig, could you be more specific?

http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/chasingmars/Chapter04/2007-04-20.pdf

(Again, untested, not recommended, think at your own risk!)

 

My long-EZ is a Tandem so how do I mount the "ski tnnel" mod on a "passenger side" when I don't have one?

You don't.


Craig K.

Cozy IV #1457

building chapter seven!

http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/chasingmars/index.html

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Does this forum have a wiki section?

No, not yet. It's something I have on my list, but would need a bit more control than a free-for-all as I've seen. It's in mind and something I'll be exploring sometime in the future.

 

FWIW, we use them at work all the time (but only authorized people can contribute, not the cleaning people, etc.). :)


Jon Matcho :busy:
Canard Zone Developer & Builder
Rebuilding Quickie Tri-Q200 N479E
Building Cozy Mark IV+ (widened rear)

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Sweet,thats what I wanted, What's the overall take on bagging layups. And why is he selling his cozy?-Guy

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Sweet,thats what I wanted, What's the overall take on bagging layups. And why is he selling his cozy?-Guy

This question recently came up on the Cozy List, check the archives there for a few opinions on the matter. As someone who vacuum bags essentially everything (so far) except my tapes (and I considered it till I realized it was silly), my take is this: (reposted from the Cozy List)

 

I would recommend against vacuum bagging. My experience is that of a

end-of-chapter-six builder, who's vacuum bagged essentially everything

the whole way. My perception is that to do vacuum bagging well, you

need to do it right, with good professional, or at least, purpose

built, materials. These are significantly expensive, and the skill

set you build is not the same as you need for hand layup, so you

become committed to an increasingly complex task, complex not because

vacuum bagging is hard, it's actually easier in some ways than a good

hand layup (though more time consuming), because the vacuum will

forgive some (not all, but some) errors, but complex because the plans

are written with the assumption of hand layup and don't give you any

insight on how to bag a part effectively, so there's constant

re-invention of build proceedure.

 

Done right, it will save a bit of weight, add thousands to the cost,

and increase time very considerably... and that's just what I've found

by chapter six. Add to that the very real risk I face of not being

able to bag a part in the future because of it's design or

construction and not having built the skill set to effectively hand

lay it, means that there's probably a few parts I'll build two or

three times in my future.

 

That's my opinion, having chosen the vac bag route. Of course, the

flip side is, I wanted to learn how to vac bag, I really enjoy the

technical challenge of figuring out how to bag each part (which

sometimes takes longer than building it, and sometimes doesn't work,

and needs to be redone), and one you know how to make sure you have a

good laminate, the parts are either perfect, or fit for the trash bin

(but be sure you can tell the difference!)

 

For what it's worth.

 

Would I go vac bagging again if I were starting today. Probably not,

knowing what I do now... but, I've developed that skill, not hand

layup, and have a few thousand dollars worth of supplies around that

are only useful if I'm vac bagging, so I'm committed to that course

now, and in truth, I'm enjoying it.

 

But I'm not making quick progress, despite being single and able to

maintain the cash flow, and that is the cost of vac bagging.

 


Craig K.

Cozy IV #1457

building chapter seven!

http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/chasingmars/index.html

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I have been vacuum bagging everything I can and will continue to do so.

I started in April of this year and I'm finishing up chapter 10 right now.

 

As you can see, vacuum bagging has really slowed my progress tremendously. :D

If I wasn't bothering with it, I'd be done by now.

 

You'll see the benefit with every layup.

Weight savings? Weigh the VB batting material before you use it and again after. That's what you save in weight.

 

Air bubbles in your layup? not in a vacuum

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Weight savings? Weigh the VB batting material before you use it and again after. That's what you save in weight.

Only if you do an exceptionally poor job of squeegeeing in the standard methodology.

 

Air bubbles in your layup? not in a vacuum

If you think that it's not possible to get air bubbles, voids, delams, or bridges when vacuum bagging, you're seriously deluding yourself.

 

Bag if you want, but it's hardly the be-all and end all of composite construction.

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Only if you do an exceptionally poor job of squeegeeing in the standard methodology.

 

If you think that it's not possible to get air bubbles, voids, delams, or bridges when vacuum bagging, you're seriously deluding yourself.

 

Bag if you want, but it's hardly the be-all and end all of composite construction.

So, what do they do at Scaled Composites?

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So, what do they do at Scaled Composites?

Use techniques appropriate for the job. Most things are bagged, but most things are carbon and in molds, too. We use contact layups when appropriate.

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Use techniques appropriate for the job. Most things are bagged, but most things are carbon and in molds, too. We use contact layups when appropriate.

So is there a downside or are you just saying you believe it is overkill?

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I think that's only half of it. In a production facility, you want quality repeatable parts. Go ahead and bag a part 10 times and hand lay-up the same part 10 times. I'l bet you'll see much less variation in the bagged part. Also much less mess and potential hazard for the worker.


Mike LaFLeur - Cozy MkIV #1155
N68ML
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As with everything else, the best way to decide would be to do 2 layups side by side. After you've done the best you can, bag it. Weigh all the bagging material before and after and you will be getting some excess epoxy, no doubt.

 

Now, the point I believe Marc is trying to make (and jump in here Marc as you see fit) seems to be that you might save a small amount in the complete build if your technique is on par.

 

As for my particular position is concerned, I am committed to the bagging process. As Marc pointed out, it is more of a necessity when workiing with Carbon Fiber which is the case in some areas of my build.

 

So yeah, there are pros and cons but excessive time is not one of them if you are organized. When I have finished with a piece and pop it in a bag, I know that nothing is going to move. There's a lot of pressure on those parts.

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So is there a downside or are you just saying you believe it is overkill?

I agree with Craig's post #16 above, cross-posted from the COZY mailing list.

 

If you save 20 lb. over contact layups, I'd be surprised. But we'll never know, because your plane is substantially different from other LE's.

 

As I've said before, having done a lot of both types of layups, it seems like a lot of hassle for very little gain, but to each his own.

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.... When I have finished with a piece and pop it in a bag, I know that nothing is going to move. There's a lot of pressure on those parts.

Don't be so sure. We've seen things move, shift, lift, etc. even under a bag. It's hardly unknown. Depends on a lot of things - epoxy type, temperature, pressure, etc.

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