Project: Free Long-EZ Templates

[Jon Matcho]

This is a hypothetical project, where I want to explore what steps would be required to make available COPIES of Long-EZ plans to those that wish to acquire them. Guideliness for this hypothetical project are:

• Purpose is to preserve the availability of the Long-EZ design
• Everything must be legal
• Copies must be free (no profit)
• We are not creating a new design (yet -- let's just get through this first)

See the discussion here for a background of where this is coming from. Summarizing that discussion, here are the present facts:

• www.terf.com sells a RAF plans CD for $295 (without any full-size templates)
• Per US Copyright Law, it is LEGAL ("Fair Use") to copy plans and templates for non-profit research and scholarship purposes (as in experimental aircraft building)
• It is ILLEGAL to sell copies of plans for any sort of profit
• It is LEGAL to sell original plans and/or templates for as much money as the market will bear

Considering this, here is my proposal for making Long-EZ plans available:

• Setup a network of individuals willing to make accurate copies of templates
• Setup guideliness for not-for-profit charges for producing these copies (what are reasonable costs?)
• Publish the availability, air-tight, so that it's clear to all that this is entirely legal

The person wanting to build a Long-EZ would have to do the following:

• Purchase the RAF CD from TERF
• Send money to a Template Provider
• Receive material
• Build

Technically, it may be legal to copy the plans as well, but considering they're available from TERF right now, I believe it's best to acquire directly from them.

 

Thoughts?

[sbarton]

I wonder how much it would cost to have the original templates professionally drafted into a format (dfs/dmg). I know Tony has already completed some of the bulkheads but he is doing everything from scratch.

 

I'll bet there are companies out there that specialize in doing this. Heck there may even be technology that could do it quickly. Someone with more drafting experiance would have to answer this one. The question is, would it cost hundreds, or thousands?

 

 

Bart

[sbarton]

Here is a link to a service with pricing. I don't know what the size and quanity of a complete Eze template set is. Perhaps someone who does can do the math?

 

http://vectorex.com/cms/prices_enduser.php#Paper_to_CAD

 

Bart

[Jon Matcho]

Bart, interesting. For purposes of this concept, CAD drawings would be ideal.

 

I happened to speak with another person who has a number of auxillary drawings that sound impressive. This, with some other items, could become the basis of the next project -- a new canard aircraft derivative.

[tonyslongez]

Jon

 

Might as well do the mod drawings. My thoughts here are, most builders are incorporating mods into the Long Ez from the begining of building or where ever than can get them in depending on the chapter(which there are nooo plans or drawings for). So, why not make a plans set with the mods and then use the Terf Cd to compare the two. Let the builder decide if that particular mod is what they want. If not, then they simply build to plans. I believe getting the originals copied into Cad is a good start. What I would like to see is, what I was doing, having both template drawings to compare to, Stock and modified. I'll do what I can to help. Count me in . I just thought of something else there has to be a way to make sure if the builder omits any one particular mod then the plans redirect the builder to another area of that section. So later on down the road everything works out. that is to say if one mod is depended on another. A+B=C if not B then A+C+D=E some of these mods may depend on each other. Or if you omit one mod you may have no choice but to add another. If it works out that way. My $.002

 

Just so everyone knows I completed the Firewall drawing for the Long Ez which I sent to Avery at Ez.org but I don't know if he has added it to the file yet.

 

Tony

[Jon Matcho]

So, why not make a plans set with the mods and then use the Terf Cd to compare the two. Let the builder decide if that particular mod is what they want. If not, then they simply build to plans. I believe getting the originals copied into Cad is a good start. What I would like to see is, what I was doing, having both template drawings to compare to, Stock and modified. I'll do what I can to help. Count me in .

Tony, great ideas, and welcome any help you can offer.

 

I think that as soon as you introduce a modification, the project would be best off by moving towards producing a different design -- not affiliated with the Long-EZ.

 

There are two topics as I see them:

• Enable new Long-EZs to be built
• Create a new canard design (or designs)

The first may cause Burt/RAF concern, but the second should not. The primary problem that exists today is that Long-EZ templates are not readily available. So, few Long-EZs are being built. In order for modification designs to have any value, there should be several active builders. I know Long-EZs are being built today, but these builders seem to be in the shadows. Either that, or there really aren't that many -- I do NOT see many Long-EZ building questions being asked.

 

So back to the discussion of this thread -- the Long-EZ design CAN be made available, by one or more people willing to digitize drawings or author CAD templates. If this material was out there, the Long-EZ would once again become a viable design. Tony, do you know anyone who could make ALL of the Long-EZ drawings available in electronic/CAD form? Hypothetically speaking, these could be made available on the Canard Zone here with disclaimers and instructions to purchase the TERF CD.

 

I just thought of something else there has to be a way to make sure if the builder omits any one particular mod then the plans redirect the builder to another area of that section. So later on down the road everything works out. that is to say if one mod is depended on another. A+B=C if not B then A+C+D=E some of these mods may depend on each other. Or if you omit one mod you may have no choice but to add another. If it works out that way.

This is a good discussion for that new set of plans and design you have in mind. Being a software guy, plans could be offered as a software application, adjusting as required based on the mods/options selected by the builder.

 

Just so everyone knows I completed the Firewall drawing for the Long Ez which I sent to Avery at Ez.org but I don't know if he has added it to the file yet.

Is this your modified firewall, or the per plans firewall?

 

Good feedback!

[dpaton]

Is this your modified firewall, or the per plans firewall?

I'd bet, based on the other drawings, that it has both. Did I guess right Tony?

 

-dave

[tonyslongez]

Jon I think I sent them both in the stock Long Ez firewall and the modified. I think though it will take just as much effort to make an original set of plans as would to just make a set with the mods allready in place. But what ever you guys think I'll help anyway i can . As fas as getting them into CAD? no I don't know of any company that can do that of course I never had to look I draw my own stuff but I think someone posted a link to a company that does that sorta thing sorry for the spelling and punctuation I'm at work and in a hurry.

 

Tony

[sbarton]

I posted the link to the company that specializes in digitizing blueprints. I was hoping someone who knows how many templates there are and what thier sizes are could look on that site and caculate the cost. They have the prices for various sizes posted right on the website.

 

It would be nice to have one company do the drawings so the file formats, scale, etc., would be consistent. If the cost was spread over 4 or 5 people, it might not be that bad.

 

Then get someone who knows how to draft modify the drawings with the mods that everyone does anyway...like the long nose mod and maybe the 2" widening and 0-320 mount, etc, etc.

 

Remove all the references in the drawing to Long-EZ and RAF and repackage the whole thing as the Open-EZ experimental aircraft design.

[tonyslongez]

Mr Barton

 

Yes you did post that link, sorry I didn't scroll up that high on my last post. the vectorex company looks like they could easily handle the job. what needs to happen now is getting all the templates to them. They can e-mail one of us a quote on the cost, if we like the price we have them do it if not we find someone else.simple .The only thing they may have a problem with is the copyright on those templates. That is why I think having the mods put right in initially will create a whole new set of drawings and the possible infringment issue will not exist. We don't want to call it a Long Ez, so the plans with the modifications would still "preserve the availability of the Long Ez design", As jon has put it in his list of demands . My best friend is a Lawyer I'll ask him about some of the legalities involved if it isn't to bad there won't be much to worry about as far as infringment. especially if we make the mods changes. and initially, maybe only one or two. Then, we can go back and do other changes in the plans. What do you think? Also Vectorex maybe able to use my drawings to start with then make small changes to them if needed. this will give them a head start and may cut some of the cost.

 

Tony

[H.Zwakenberg]

Jon,

 

- are you proposing an OpenSource Canard (OSC?) of sorts, or what is your intention? If you plan an OpenSource project, check out the legal framework that is offered by GNU.org. It might apply to what you intent to achieve.

- are you proposing a design from scratch, using the LongEze as a reference design to start with? If so, you might want to visit the list of links that I maintain at my RJ.03 IBIS experimental aircraft project site. Most of the software titles on that list can be used for preliminary (aerodynamic) design. The coming weekend, this list will be extended with links to free FEM/FEA software. I'm also checking out free CFD software, so the list will grow further still...

 

bye

Hans

[Jon Matcho]

Good stuff!

 

Tony, let me rephrase my question to be clearer: What would it take to get all "stock" Long-EZ templates into a form that could be downloaded and taken to OfficeMax, Staples, or Kinkos for printing? (I'm assuming they can print PDFs or even DWG files). I have copies of all the templates myself, and can imagine the work, and so I just want to take an inventory of what you've done compared to what remains to be done.

 

It would be nice to have one company do the drawings so the file formats, scale, etc., would be consistent. If the cost was spread over 4 or 5 people, it might not be that bad.

Understanding that Tony may not want to do this for free, or want to, or have the time, etc., this is the only option for getting them into electronic form. The costs will be substantial, which would have to be shared by one or more individuals.

 

The only thing they may have a problem with is the copyright on those templates. That is why I think having the mods put right in initially will create a whole new set of drawings and the possible infringment issue will not exist.

Let's assume I am 100% correct with my statements regarding Fair Use of the template drawings. I'm familiar with copyright law, and will run the RAF/Long-EZ scenario by my lawyer to be sure (if this ever moves out from the hypothetical realm). So, let's not burden ourselves with lawyering and assume the premise I put forth is 100% legal.

 

We don't want to call it a Long Ez, so the plans with the modifications would still "preserve the availability of the Long Ez design", As jon has put it in his list of demands .

Funny, but I'm just trying to think this project through, for purposes of preserving the Long-EZ design for historical and research purposes, unaltered.

 

are you proposing an OpenSource Canard (OSC?) of sorts, or what is your intention?

The notion of an open source canard is definitely appealing, but to manage and orchestrate such a project is a major undertaking. That's another discussion, related to this one, but one too big to fully take on right now.

 

are you proposing a design from scratch, using the LongEze as a reference design to start with?

I wasn't here, but have thought of it. Keep in mind that a new "design" does not need to be any different aerodynamically than the Long-EZ. In fact, it can look exactly the same. The copyright issues are to do with the way the plans and drawings are written. Remember, a copyright is NOT a patent. GRANTED, this approach would allow us to produce a new set of plans that would be off the legal radar scope of Burt/RAF.

 

Here's how I see the possibilities for where our energies can be directed (in order of low-to-high effort on our parts):

• Make Long-EZ templates available in printed form
• Make Long-EZ templates available in electronic form
• Create a new set of plans, based on the Long-EZ, but with NO references to Burt, RAF, or 'Long-EZ'
• Create a new design, a derivative of #3 here, such as a new 4-place

My day job involves writing project management Web software, which I could have configured to be adapted for our needs here. There are many similarities with what we're talking about here, and the problems we have with trying to manage modular software, with customer-specific modifications, and manage to keep the entire foundation consistent.

 

Tony, do you have an issue if I setup a download area here for the material you're forwarding to Avery?

 

Throw it all out on our hypothetical table and let's see what we can come up with.

[tonyslongez]

Jon

 

I understand and I'm with you 150%. I have no problems with anything you want from me. Where do you want me to send the drawings? I don't know if Avery has even posted the firewall I gave him he hasn't made any mention that it is available. I know he said he was running into web space issues so that may be a reason why.

 

Tony

[tonyslongez]

Jon

 

I'm drawing the landing gear detail now. Well! let me refrase that. I'm drawing the rear bulkhead assembly and the landing gear hardpoint mounts and its all in 3d, won't be much help. I have the gear template. Some of the 3d drawing I can paste out of Isometric view. So I do have a bit of a headstart. You know the other thing that bothered me about these templates was the lack of dimensions alot of this stuff can be built without a template if the dims had been provided but I guess that was the point. I dimed the templates I drew so they can be built really without printing up a giant piece of paper that would be the ideal way to go to make the whole thing paperless. put the whole darn thing on cd just use the drawing to clarify, not to actually build on. What do you think????

 

Tony

[H.Zwakenberg]

Jon,

 

- are you proposing an OpenSource Canard (OSC?) of sorts, or what is your intention? If you plan an OpenSource project, check out the legal framework that is offered by GNU.org. It might apply to what you intent to achieve.

- are you proposing a design from scratch, using the LongEze as a reference design to start with? If so, you might want to visit the list of links that I maintain at my RJ.03 IBIS experimental aircraft project site. Most of the software titles on that list can be used for preliminary (aerodynamic) design. The coming weekend, this list will be extended with links to free FEM/FEA software. I'm also checking out free CFD software, so the list will grow further still...

 

bye

Hans

 

today I've extended my list of links to free design software with two software titles that are FEM/FEA solvers.

 

Go to my my RJ.03 IBIS experimental aircraft project site, you'll find the links under "Links" - "Software".

 

If you have suggestions of other relevant free design software to include in this list, please let me know...

 

bye

Hans

[Jon Matcho]

Hello, just want to get caught up with trying to get on the same page. To be more accurate to the scope of this discussion, I have renamed the thread from 'Free Long-EZ Plans' to 'Free Long-EZ Templates'. Since the plans are currently available from www.terf.com, I see no reason to provide an alternate source for the plans, regardless of how legal this would be (which I remain convinced that it would prove entirely legal). So, the scope of our little project here is to help someone build a Long-EZ after having purchased the RAF CDs from TERF:

• Purchase the TERF RAF CDs
• Download the Template files
• Print the Template files

I suspect that creating printable template files for ALL templates may not work. Can these template files be PDFs, or must they be DWGs? Tony, I believe you mentioned (here or somewhere else) that PDFs will not guarantee accurate dimensions on different printers. I'm surprised by this and wonder whether PDFs can be used with some care.

 

Assuming the prior is not feasible (considering time and effort), the other route would be:

• Purchase the TERF RAF CDs
• Send $20 to a 'template printer' for cost of materials ONLY
• The 'template printer' will mail the physical material to the builder

Mix the two scenarios together and create a network of individuals with the files, the templates would become readily available. That's my thinking, and now responding to your prior posts...

 

Where do you want me to send the drawings?

To my e-mail address is fine.

 

I dimed the templates I drew so they can be built really without printing up a giant piece of paper that would be the ideal way to go to make the whole thing paperless. put the whole darn thing on cd just use the drawing to clarify, not to actually build on. What do you think????

I like it and would be a great idea for a NEW template design. I do wonder how much could be done like this, with the exception of the seatback. Stepping back a moment, and considering the historical purpose of this project, remember that we:

• are ensuring the preservation of the Long-EZ design/plans as-is
• are considering modifications and improvements for a new design

Having a "cheat sheet" that would make a paper drawing unnecessary falls into #2, which is also fine w/me provided it's managed in that stream ("Two-place Canard Version 2006", or something like that).

 

The coming weekend, this list will be extended with links to free FEM/FEA software. I'm also checking out free CFD software, so the list will grow further still...

Hans, I certainly don't mind the references, and may check them out someday when I dare to change airfoils and other aerodynamics. However, for purposes of this project ("Free Long-EZ templates") and potential follow-up projects, I don't see the need given that I have no plans to change any of the external curves, etc.

 

Beyond the Long-EZ, one could come up with a completely different set of plans for how to assemble something that looked like and flew like a Long-EZ. The only difference could be the process by which the "something" was made. Documenting that from scratch is a new work -- plans -- but not necessarily a new design. In other words, moving the seatback rearward 1" does not require computerized analysis, because in the end it comes down to the same weight and balance calculations as a "stock Long-EZ".

 

Comments are entirely welcome!

[tonyslongez]

(Jon wrote)

I suspect that creating printable template files for ALL templates may not work. Can these template files be PDFs, or must they be DWGs? Tony, I believe you mentioned (here or somewhere else) that PDFs will not guarantee accurate dimensions on different printers. I'm surprised by this and wonder whether PDFs can be used with some care.

 

Jon first let me start with the PDF issue as I understand it. A very good E.E. friend of mine told me about the PDF problem. I personally haven't tried to print the templates in a PDF format but I take his word for it. He uses Autocad every day and assured me that the DWG file was the most accurate scale. The PDF's were off as much as 20%. That's why I was dimming everything I could. So no matter what the print size you still have the actual dimensions of the bulkheads. Lets face it, you can build a house that way. Why not an airplane? B.T.W. I did convert all my drawings to PDF as well.

 

1.are ensuring the preservation of the Long-EZ design/plans as-is

2.are considering modifications and improvements for a new design

 

I understand wanting to preserve the Long Ez design/plans as-is but does it have to include the media as well? I'm not sure how that fits into a " new design" if we just put the templates on C.D. if we use the Terf C.D's and our templates that where drawn to scale and put on a C.D. are we not preserving the LongEz plans in a better format than paper? Plus I can draw some of this stuf in 3D which is alot easier to follow than some of these templates we have now. I guess what I'm looking at is, if Terf has converted the plans set to a digital format why not the templates? Or did I read the post wrong? oh god! the preasure

 

Tony

[H.Zwakenberg]

(Jon wrote)

Tony, I believe you mentioned (here or somewhere else) that PDFs will not guarantee accurate dimensions on different printers. I'm surprised by this and wonder whether PDFs can be used with some care.

Tony

PDF files can be used to some extend, provided that:

1: you instruct your printer driver that no scaling whatsoever is done during the print processing phase

2: you use the exact same paper size the PDF-file was created for

 

Even with these precautions, some small errors may occur, most likely because the printing process may heat up the paper (as laser printers do). This heating up may elongate the paper a bit. If this happens, the size change will not be exactly the same on the X- and Y-axes...

 

bye

Hans

[dpaton]

I guess what I'm looking at is, if Terf has converted the plans set to a digital format why not the templates?

The text on the CDs says:

 

The actual templates included with the original plans provided by RAF are not included on The Rutan Aircraft Factory CD-ROM Encyclopedia due to reproduction, legal and other limitations.

 

A majority of it, I think, is that copies of the plans (which is what caused the poor image quality on the photographs and the off-kilter page alignment) were scanned with a flatbed scanner and an automatic document feeder, which had a legal-sized paper limit. The templates are all D-size as I recall, and that means a big drum scanner. I doubt TERF had the 6 to 8 digits of money to pick one of those up just for the CD project.

 

I'd also wager that Burt/RAF told them not to include templates, so that the plans would be incomplete and could not be used to directly build a new airplane, shielding everyone involved from liability, if only just a little.

 

My$0.02 of almost pure conjecture.

 

-dave

[Len Evansic]

PDF's are more accurate for hard-copy output than straight prints of DWG's have ever been or will ever be. PDF is an open, device-independent and resolution independent format that is built for accurate representation in all media. The problem is, as Hans mentioned, that some PDF readers try to make everything fit the paper size and margins that the output device is configured to use.

 

The DWG format is not open or close to standardized for writing or reading. The same is true for DXF. Unfortunately, they are the least common denominator for 2-D CAD formats, and are handled poorly by every CAD program not written by AutoDesk.

 

The drawings should be accurately output to PostScript, and then converted to PDF for the most universal usability. For scaling concerns, a verification scale in both X and Y should be part of the drawing, preferably in all corners.

 

-- Len

[dpaton]

I'm with Len on the process of generating the PDFs. If you use the real Adobe PDF writer, you can select any paper size under the sun, as well as choosing whether or not the image will be scaled to the paper size. I also support 1, 12, and 24" check dimensions. Dumping from AutoCad to a .ps file should be easy. I think everything after R15 supported it, though I could be wrong. Just make sure to get the paper size right. D or E sized paper should hold everything, no? Then run the .ps files though Distiller and set the options as best you can. In theory, that will give you an accurate PDF that's both portable and universal.

 

Of course, we'll need each template on it's own sheet, which for me, means each template in it's own file.

 

Who wants to try it first?

 

;-)

 

-dave

[tonyslongez]

Well I have to say up front I'm not that familiar with the capabilities of Adobe PDF's. The DXF files are what I printed at Kinkos and they worked perfectly I can't imagine you would need anything else as far as elongating do to heat issues with some of these copiers or printers I'll bet it's neglible. I mean the airplane is built by hand you will unitentially elongate parts in all directions as you build it. I think most of that is a scare tactic I copied my originals layed them on top of each other and absolutely could not see any difference in the two. Here is what I propose to the group. I'll do the drawings in autocad you guys figure out the format problem. by the way the kinkos here in vegas has a large drum scanner/printer. D & E sized paper. Do we want to see any of the originals in 3D yes or no?

 

Tony

[dpaton]

Tony, you probably have the best equipped Kinkos in the world. The ones around me can barely manage to copy 11x17 in color. Ick. There is a local drafting house that will do the prints for me though, and I plan to use them.

 

I for one would LOVE to see a 3D wireframe, section view, plan view, and a few 3/4 views of some of the parts. The TERF CDs are good starting points, but I'll take an accurate model I can zoom in on in eDrawings any day of the week.

 

-dave

[tonyslongez]

I'll get started. If you guys see any mistakes in the drawings let me know sometimes my eyes don't work so well at 3:00am that includes the ones I have allready drawn, I can change them with a key stroke. i'll start with something simple 3D drawing like the front seat bulkhead and the rear seat bulkhead i'll extrude them in isometric view and have then gouraud shaded in the different colors of foam. I think you'll like it.

 

 

Tony

[Jon Matcho]

The text on the [TERF RAF] CDs says:

That just shows how much legal limitation there is NOT.

 

PDF is an open, device-independent and resolution independent format that is built for accurate representation in all media.

Yes, and the reason why PDF exists. Also note the acronym breaks down into 'Portable Document Format'. PDF will be fine with proper care.

 

The DWG format is not open or close to standardized for writing or reading. The same is true for DXF. Unfortunately, they are the least common denominator for 2-D CAD formats, and are handled poorly by every CAD program not written by AutoDesk.

The primary issue you bring up here is that two different programs can/will interpret the contents of the same file differently. Given a lack of standards in the CAD industry, this should be expected -- I've verified it when trying to print the Cozy Mark IV templates. Google 'CAD XML standard' to get links to trends relating to standardization of file formats.

 

I'm sure that even the non-AutoDesk CAD tools can print natively using their own format. If that's possible, a native conversion to PDF (via printer stream intercept) is trivial using Adobe Acrobat Distiller, making the conversion-to-postscript step optional/unnecessary.

 

My point is that I would trust PDF conversion using the method I described here for all the softwares I know to be in use within our homebuilt canard community.

 

For scaling concerns, a verification scale in both X and Y should be part of the drawing, preferably in all corners.

Yes, this would be an interesting exercise, but the proof of this pudding would be whether the drawings' dimensions checked out, or not. You'd have to verify the first set printed, but then after that you could just check the calibration sheet (large perfect circle within a square or rectangle, with all dimensions?).

 

Who wants to try it first?

Let's see... I have a large format HP DesignJet collecting dust and just need to get with Tony to verify the PDF process. I'll setup some time to test this process.

 

I mean the airplane is built by hand you will unitentially elongate parts in all directions as you build it.

Shoot! And I thought I was sanding too much!

 

Here is what I propose to the group. I'll do the drawings in autocad you guys figure out the format problem.

Ah, so you are using AutoCAD -- that makes this easy. I should be able to print just fine using the FREE AutoCad DWF Viewer.

 

The moral of this story is that sharing DWG files across different vendor's products may (will?) cause problems. Given that Tony is using AutoCAD, sharing DWF files to be printed using AudoDesk DWF Viewer will work fine for now. This issue is then only that you have to have AutoCad to collaborate hands on with Tony (source/DWG file sharing, as opposed to 'publishing', may not even be necessary).

 

Do we want to see any of the originals in 3D yes or no?

Yes, and I would like to see these files freely available. The only issue will be that most people actually don't want to both w/CAD, and so the need to have printed 2D drawings available (the templates).

 

Great ideas all around!