Project: Free Long-EZ Templates

[Jon Matcho]

Lookin forward to seeing the work...

Me too.

 

...I am getting the shop set up now and am in the process of building the jig table for my plug mold.

Are you planning on making more than one fuselage? Or are you doing it for another reason?

 

I bought 6 levelers from Lee Valley and they will make getting the table right a lot easier. Thanks for the tip

Yes, they will, BUT I was just about to tell everyone to BOYCOT LEE VALLEY.

 

I recently read a letter from the editor in a woodworking magazine where Lee Valley apparently sent a nasty letter to the publisher (with lawyering implied) because the magazine published an article on how to build something that was similar to a product that Lee Valley held a patent on. The magazine instructed its readers to NOT build the project and that doing so would infringe on Lee Valley's patent, which is total B.S. The only way to infringe on a patent is to sell a like product. You're freely able to get any patent information you like from the US Patent Office and build for your own personal use. I found the actions of Lee Valley despicable or ignorant, and the actions of the publisher just ignorant. Maybe I'll refer both to this post if I don't have enough steam to write a letter...

 

Best part so far is I got all the materials free from construction site dumpsters where they threw away new materials!

Oh yeah!

 

Still waiting on my Terf CD. I think it got lost in the mail. Been 2 weeks now.

Call them.

 

Also, as soon as I get going, I will post a new page and pics for the build on my site at http://www.free-build-it-info.com/index.html

Interesting... I'm curious how much money something like that generates? I might have stumbled on that before.

 

And finally, I'm still lookin for someone local to learn layups

You can learn on your own once you get the TERF CD. There's a whole chapter dedicated to education and doing a few practice pieces. There are builders in Florida -- nearly everywhere actually. Instead of offering help, maybe consider asking for a project visit. You still learn a lot, and once you get past that and make the person with the project realize that you're not an ax murderer, you can see about being invited back for some real work. Then again, I once got 6 hours more than I bargained for at one visit... making strake skins.

[magnum]

"Are you planning on making more than one fuselage? Or are you doing it for another reason?"

 

I think it will be easier to get the sizes I am after, build firewall to nose in one shot and once its laid up on the inside, making the templates will be a snap. Also I will leave it in the plug as long as I can to keep it straight as well as strong. Once all is done inside I can pop it out and lay up the outside.

 

"Call them."

 

Already did an e mail and they said wait and if it doesnt come they will send another. This time I'll ask for ups or fed ex!

 

"Interesting... I'm curious how much money something like that generates? I might have stumbled on that before."

 

I built it about 9 months ago as an affiliate site but it was minimal at best. I just took off all of the links and am in process of adding an e bay site shopping cart for all things related to it such as tools, house wares, kitchen etc. This way I have control and can track everything. All drop shipping!

The Google ads are the best so far and will be funding a lot of the plane. I highly recommend them both for your site. Google search and Google ads. Best part is its free to set up and they do all the work. Click me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL

 

"You can learn on your own once you get the TERF CD. "

 

I know but I would like to get some hands on first if I can. I 'm sure I can hook up with someone. I got the practice kit and we can use it if they are not building. We'll see!

Press on

Tom

[DowningHawk]

From a total newbie:

 

Thank you for all the hard work with these templates. I just recieved my TERF cds in the mail yesterday - magnum, sorry to hear your plans are taking so long.

 

I've been reading through the plans and looking at the digitized templates. If only I could start building now. But, I'm home on R & R leave from Iraq for only a few more days. It will be several months before I'm back again.

 

Jon/Tony, whoever the mastermind is behind these new templates - thank you. How many total templates are included in the original plans (as the appendix is not included in the TERF cds)? Are you guys planning on completing the entire set?

 

Also, what is the main advantage of the longer nose modification?

 

I took a ride in Frank Pullano's VariEz two years ago and haven't been able to think straight since. Must build.....

[tonyslongez]

Downinghawk

 

I took a ride in Frank Pullano's VariEz two years ago and haven't been able to think straight since. Must build.....

Yeah you have to be real careful when you touch that stick back there, you have to wear at least two pair of rubber gloves to protect yourself from getting build fever:D

 

I'm home on R & R leave from Iraq for only a few more days.

Sorry to here you have to go back. Be careful over there buddy.

 

Jon/Tony, whoever the mastermind is behind these new templates - thank you. How many total templates are included in the original plans (as the appendix is not included in the TERF cds)? Are you guys planning on completing the entire set?

Well this whole thing really started because of JON:irked: now everyone is scrambling to do his bidding:D no I'm kidding it was sorta a long time coming really. Jon made some great suggestions, and I happen to be pretty good a Autocad (Just ask me;) ) and voila we have some templates that everyone can use. I don't recall the actual number of templates in the original plans set 7 or 8 sheets I believe we should be down to 3 or 4 now that have to be drawn, actually the ones that aren't drawn you can buy the parts from a supplier and you don't need the template at all. I think we will eventually finish all of them time permitting, hopefully before you get back from the desert.

 

Also, what is the main advantage of the longer nose modification

No real advantage other than it looks realy cooooll. Well maybe some advantage it allowes you to move your battery further forward if you need to do to CG issues. maybe some extra storage but that's about it.

 

Tony

[dpaton]

Also, what is the main advantage of the longer nose modification

No real advantage other than it looks realy cooooll. Well maybe some advantage it allowes you to move your battery further forward if you need to do to CG issues. maybe some extra storage but that's about it.

For tall guys like me with crazy long legs, it also gives the option of moving the rudder pedals a little further out, which is important.

 

Thanks again Tony. I can't wait to put the paper on the MDF and make me some cutting templates. Yay!

 

-dave

[Jon Matcho]

Well this whole thing really started because of JON...

I was inspired by Tony to "come out" and begin this thread. Thank you Tony!!! I have since found (in addition to Tony) a number of individuals wanting to help out anonymously. Thank you as well!

 

The project has evolved to become the following, as I see it now:

• Scan those unavailable Long-EZ drawings into PDFs
• Make printed templates available (for cost of materials only)
• Reverse engineer the original Long-EZ drawings into CAD
• Produce 2D/3D CAD files for modifications (longer nose, etc.)

After looking at Tony's work, you can see that his initial work fits in #4 here. He has also addressed #3, and I am working (with others) on #1 which will lead to #2.

 

Finally, I am factoring requirements here into the next version of a project management software I produce as part of my day job so that we can manage all of this information. I have to balance our priorities here so there's no conflict w/my paying customers, etc.

 

I also mentioned that I met John Griffiths, who produced the Berkut drawings. He has copyright to ~100 drawings towards making a Berk-EZ and has been selling these by word of mouth for $675/set and would like to make them available as part of this project. I have seen these drawings and they're beautiful. You can get a taste of the quality in the attached images. I'm trying to help him index and break some of these apart (for cost reasons) as many of the drawings are appropriate for ANY canard. My point is that there may also need to be a 'Buy' button for those not willing to work for free (it happens ). If you're interested in these drawings, please let John know that you were referred by the Canard Zone.

 

I also gave a test run of a high-end large format scanner/printer this past weekend, scanning 5 of my own drawings, and was really happy with the results and cost.

 

Tony, I also have a copy of Rhino 3D -- great product, but it didn't seem to render your DWGs as well as I'd expected.

 

That's the update for now... more to come, sooner or later. Thanks for your patience.

[tonyslongez]

$675 bucks? holy cow! yeah those drawings look great but man they are exspensive:scared:

 

Dave why are you posting aren't you on vacation somwhere? like Aruba or cancun or greenland or something?

 

Jon

 

I'm going to see if I can get those drawings into Rhino. If not, I'll redraw them into Rhino. I need to play wiht it some more anyway, so it'll give me something to do (as if I don't have enough, my wife is going to kill me) also what other drawings do you think need to be done next? by priority. I'll work on it. I have some time this week just pick the next sheet you want to see redrawn and I'll get started on it. This is getting really cool have you been able to make a spot on the site to park all of this information? not pushing at all, just wanted to see if that was still an option.

 

Tony

[DowningHawk]

tonyslongez said: "Sorry to here you have to go back. Be careful over there buddy."

 

Tony, don't feel sorry for me, it’s my chosen profession (although I don't like being away from my wife and kids). But, the army pays me pretty good money to fly an incredible machine – four big rotor blades, twin turbines, neat dark green paint, and a mostly bullet proof seat!

 

Anyway, thanks for the contributions to aviation you guys are making. Even in this day and age, the cutting edge of innovation can be in someone’s garage.

[dpaton]

Dave why are you posting aren't you on vacation somwhere? like Aruba or cancun or greenland or something?

Tomorrow at 6pm I depart for Tortola, BVI, the Dominican Republic, and places south. Until then, I'm still around ;-)

 

The drawings do look amazing. I'm eagerly awaiting the release of the tidbits from them.

 

Off to bed, then work, then vacation!

 

-Dave

[Jon Matcho]

$675 bucks? holy cow! yeah those drawings look great but man they are exspensive:scared:

That was my first impression, but after looking through them I began to appreciate the value. The cost works out to just under $7/drawing, with the set including control systems, all the metal work down to each nut and bolt, drawings for engine mounts (to fabricate them), electrical, fuel & hydraulic systems, engine baffles, details to fabricate Berkut-style main gear, forward canopy, and more.

 

Look for an index up here somewhere in the days coming.

 

I'm going to see if I can get those drawings into Rhino. If not, I'll redraw them into Rhino.

If you must.

 

...have you been able to make a spot on the site to park all of this information?

I'll figure something out for the interim, before the software comes online.

 

I'll keep everyone posted.

[tonyslongez]

Jon

 

Is there anyway to just buy the sheets of interest? Say, landing gear and canopy details? I mean, I don't need to know how the whole berkut is built do I? Unless, I'm trying to build a Berkut. Which I didn't think that is what those drawings where for.

I suppose you could build the whole thing from those drawings but I would think to build the jigs for the fuse alone would take you 6months. I built my Long Ez fuselage in under two weeks. Of cousre it's not rounded either.

Do the drawings come with layup scheduals and fiber orientation? I wouldn't mind having a set but I'm not sure what to do with them.

 

Tony

[Jon Matcho]

Is there anyway to just buy the sheets of interest? Say, landing gear and canopy details?

I'll see what I can work out with John G.

 

I mean, I don't need to know how the whole berkut is built do I? Unless, I'm trying to build a Berkut. Which I didn't think that is what those drawings where for.

They were definitely produced specifically for the Berkut kit, but do provide supplemental info. beyond what you get in the Long-EZ, Cozy, or AeroCanard plans.

 

I suppose you could build the whole thing from those drawings...

Do the drawings come with layup scheduals and fiber orientation?

No, you would still need plans. There's an occassional instruction on the number of plys, but no specifics to fiber orientation -- so you need plans.

 

I wouldn't mind having a set but I'm not sure what to do with them.

I'll talk to John G. and see if I can post a couple more views as examples. There's a total of 97 large-sized sheets (40" x 30") with between 1 to 9 specific drawings on each.

 

This side-topic really deserves its own thread, which I'll look to setup this weekend after I speak w/John G.

[Chris]

Jon-

Any word from John G.?

 

Chris

[Jon Matcho]

No, not yet. I'll get my thoughts and all other questions collected and out to him this weekend.

[Jon Matcho]

Quick update everyone:

• As of yet, I have NOT been able to acquire originals for scanning. If anyone has some they'd be willing to lend, please contact me offline at jonmatcho@gmail.com
• I have managed to get two sets of copies, which I will run with if I don't get access to originals. I will need a volunteer to check accuracy against originals with what I produce.
• I have not yet been able to discuss breaking apart the Berkut/BerkEZ drawings with John Griffiths -- on my list
• I have thought through how/where to let files be managed here, but not yet implemented. Soon!

All for now.

[Jon Matcho]

Any word from John G.?

I spoke with John today, and we discussed how to break down his drawing set for those interested in just a few drawings. Definitely made progress there, and will be working with John to post an available index shortly. Individual prints will be very reasonable.

 

As of right now I still do not have a set of Long-EZ templates to use to verify the copies I have. I may be able to meet with someone this weekend on this. Outside of that, I have physical hotwire templates from a Long-EZ builder that successfully built and flew one of these, and can crosscheck those against my drawings. If they're within 1/8" I would say they would be good enough to build from.

 

If anyone is willing to compare the template drawings I create against what you have, let me know. I'll send you a printed drawing and you can let me know how bad any sizing issues are.

 

If anyone is willing to LEND me original template drawings, please let me know -- that's easiest and fastest for me.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that 20-year old drawings have likely changed in size over the years. I'm looking to "key" my set off of a known/visible dimension. If that is 1:1, then all other drawings should be good (such as wing template drawings).

 

In the end, there will be plenty feedback -- I just realized that these just need to be versioned and we move on. Ready? I'll get it going... soon.

[H.Zwakenberg]

If they're within 1/8" I would say they would be good enough to build from

In my opinion, 1/8" for those short chords is an awefull large deviation. That's way too large, even for old fashioned non-laminar sections.

 

bye

Hans

[Jon Matcho]

In my opinion, 1/8" for those short chords is an awefull large deviation. That's way too large, even for old fashioned non-laminar sections.

What I meant is, that over the entire length of a drawing, there's no more than 1/8" discrepancy. Another way to look at this is to consider whether the airfoils can be scaled up or down by 0.004%.

 

Also, consider how this tolerance may have already been proven:

• Different printing runs of the original Long-EZ drawings varied by this amount -- how do you know that even orginal drawings are accurate?
• Paper shrinks/expands by this much based on temp. & humidity
• Builders have cut templates both inside and outside of lines they mark with a felt-tipped pen that's 1/16" wide

Hans, at first I thought the same, but for parts like these I really don't believe it matters -- as long as everything fits.

[tonyslongez]

Jon

 

I was thinking about the Berkut drawings is the idea to refrence those drawing or to actually build one? If I've ask this question already I apologize.

what would be the benefit of having these drawings in our possesion? I would guess that the landing gear detail would be the most popular but how do you get parts or is the idea to make your own? That seems a bit costly. how are you coming with your fuselage? are you still going to round it? Check out some of the renderings I have on the steerable nose gear. I think it's getting there. I figured out how to render in color. Any Long Ez drawings I do from here on will look really good in 3D color.

 

Tony

[H.Zwakenberg]

What I meant is, that over the entire length of a drawing, there's no more than 1/8" discrepancy. Another way to look at this is to consider whether the airfoils can be scaled up or down by 0.004%.

 

Also, consider how this tolerance may have already been proven:

• Different printing runs of the original Long-EZ drawings varied by this amount -- how do you know that even orginal drawings are accurate?
• Paper shrinks/expands by this much based on temp. & humidity
• Builders have cut templates both inside and outside of lines they mark with a felt-tipped pen that's 1/16" wide

Hans, at first I thought the same, but for parts like these I really don't believe it matters -- as long as everything fits.

Jon,

 

I agree with you, I must have mis-understood your initial posting in this matter....

 

bye

Hans

[Jon Matcho]

I was thinking about the Berkut drawings is the idea to refrence those drawing or to actually build one?

Mainly for reference to supplement existing plans.

what would be the benefit of having these drawings in our possesion? I would guess that the landing gear detail would be the most popular but how do you get parts or is the idea to make your own?

You could make landing gear from the drawings if you "knew what you were doing", but they're primarily for assembly as you suggest.

I received John's take on how the drawings could be broken down, and will try to post something soon.

how are you coming with your fuselage? are you still going to round it?

My sides are in the jigs right now. I'm not thinking to round it right now -- I want to finish without modifying too much of the critical path. I did widen it to be AeroCanard FG-sized, and am still thinking to change the nose. I want to see what a perfect aerodynamic nose will look like and plan to use Rhino for that.

I agree with you...

Yes!!! I was laughing this past weekend when I had to make the following measurements: 20.9", 20.85", 20.8", ten inches apart, connect the dots, and then cut. The 0.05" difference amounts to 1.3 millimeters -- smaller than the tip of my pen. This was for the contour of the fuselage bottomside, and so I just eyeballed what the plans were trying to accomplish and dragged my precision instrument across.

While sometimes not permitted at all, there still IS much eyeballing with these planes.

[Jon Matcho]

Check out some of the renderings I have on the steerable nose gear. I think it's getting there. I figured out how to render in color. Any Long Ez drawings I do from here on will look really good in 3D color.

Yes, I've been watching!

[RDangredo]

I'm also very interested in a set of plans to build a Long-EZ "style" experimental. I'd be willing to share my fair-share of any cost associated with the endeavor that would give me a set of documents from which I could start construction.

 

robert.dangredo.ve@scott.af.mil

Rdangredo@charter.net

[Jon Matcho]

Look what I found on my doorstep this morning! (see attached)

 

A "reference ruler" has been added by identifying a common point, and taking X-Y measurements from that prior to scanning. This drawing was scanned as a 400dpi TIFF (plenty good enough). I converted that to a PDF, which can also be used for printing OR printed to fit paper for convenient review.

 

I am going to print the TIFF as-is and compare with my copies just to get a ballpark comparison for accuracy.

 

Let me know what you think.

 

EDIT: The attached files are NOT accurate and NOT to scale. They are provided for educational purposes only.

Long-EZ Drawing A-8.pdf

Long-EZ Drawing A-8.TIF

[dpaton]

 

I can smell the epoxy already...

 

-dave