Volkswagen V10 Turbo Diesel Beast by Dr Hans

[No4]

Dr Hans was asked by Private Message to provide the following essay

.Volkswagen V10 5.0 Litre 400 hp Turbo Diesel

 

Thielert 4.0 V8 Mercedes Benz Turbo Diesel, fully certified with Constant Speed Propeller, 285 kg ready to start. euro 50,000 .

http://www.centurion-engines.com/c40/c40_start.htm

 

That is my benchmark. The performance in a four seat heavy gross weight Cozy would be incredible. However, it being most unlikely that I will afford it, I must do my best to emulate it.

 

The new VW Toureg 4x4, and Phaeton luxury beasts have been launched with the 315 hp V10 Turbo Diesel. This is not an engine to compare to an IO-360, but with a TIO-540.

 

This is a much better article than I could ever explain here about the standard engine. http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2030324.001/volkswagen/1.html

 

With a chip upgrade, they promise 375 hp at 3750 rpm, and peak torque up to 820 nm at 2000 rpm, which is 171 Kilowatts, which is 230 horsepower. This engine could drive a semi trailer.

click here

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://chiptuning.speed-buster.de/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dvolkswagen%2Bv10%2Btuning%2Bdiesel%26start%3D60%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DN

then click "Tuning Kit", then "VW Volkswagen", then "Toureg", then "5.0 V10 TDI".

 

As the cost and maintenance of a constant speed prop are prohibitive for me, the V10's wide power band is essential, and I seem unlikely to utilise more than 300 hp. With a 2:1 reduction drive, and a five blade wooden prop, I would like 3500 rpm (@250 hp) to equate to 300 knots, and so 2000 rpm (230 hp) should equate to 170 knots. Hopefuly it will make a deep "whump whump" noise that scares away small children and farm animals.

 

Modifications

Removal of all unnneceesary items

Re programming of ECU

Change twin turbo for single 400 hp or smaller.

Ceramic Face Head, Valves, Pistons

Custom Exhaust Manifold, and Pipe

Heat treat Exhaust and Turbo

Coat Exhaust and Turbo

Top Secret Radiator, Intercooler and Ram Air Duct.

 

The Doctor is currently researching the merits of air to water intercoolers, dry sump oil systems, and "magic" lubrication coatings.

 

For a very nice AMG turbo diesel

http://www.mercedes-benz.com/omb/amg/en/cars/series/c30cdi/index.htm

 

Some more references

http://www.enginehistory.org/Diesels/Ch2.pdf

http://www.team.net/sol/tech/engine.html

http://vcc.volvocars.se/diesel/tech_specification.asp

 

[Jim Sower]

I used to be really enthralled by lots of power. It was the key to Goooo-->Fast!!!. Then I learned how to do the math and was introduced to cost-benefit. It pretty disappointing. Like:

 

You start with 180hp and 180 kts ....

 

If you increase power by 50%, to 270 hp, you increase your speed by 1.5^1/3 or 1.14 and you end up with 206 kts.

 

What does the extra 90 hp cost you (in things like

Capitalization,

Design Modifications,

Development Effort,

Maintenance and Operating Costs ...

Ask around about engineering and development effort for severe mods that have been done.

Examine capital price and maintenance costs (and, of course, fuel) of

O-360 v. O-540;

Mazda 13B v. 270 hp diesel;

Soob EJ-25 v. 240 hp whatever (EJ-33?).

 

What does it buy you by way of getting to a typical destination (4 hrs away)? You get there like 30 minutes earlier.

There's bragging rights of course.

What are the other benefits. Try to quantify them.

 

I don't mean to piss in your corn flakes, but these are some of the things you have to examine honestly and open mindedly. You ignore them at your peril.

 

I was hugely enthusiastic about super powered Cozys until I did the math.

[No4]

Dr Hans says Hallo Jim!

Thanks enough for you kind considerations.

I believe if you notice, we have decided to keep areas outside the Coffee House as on track as possible. As you know, we have had this conversation before, so for the sake of those who actualy might be interested in the V10, PLEASE NO MORE Do the Math, Do the Math, and Mazda, Mazda, Mazda. You like one set of figures, I like another. I disagree completely with your speed horsepower formula, and think you will find that you are wrong, if you check.

 

http://www.nar-associates.com/technical-flying/turbo/turbo.pdf

 

Take a look at the power required chart for a big fat Beech Bonanza on page 2.

210 hp = 230 mph at 25,000 feet, @3300 lbs

So if it takes 270 hp to go 205 mph at 2000 lbs in a Cozy, either we are all building the wrong plane, or you need new batteries in your calculator.

 

Look in any aerodynamic text, drag = indicated airspeed, until Mach effects

 

Drag of Cozy @ 200 knots Indicated= 750 Newtons

750 * 100 metres per second (200 knots)= 75,000 thrust watts

75 Thrust KW = (prop efficiency 75%) = 100 Shaft Kw = 135 hp

135 hp is 75% power of a 180 hp engine.

 

At 25,000 feet.

200 indicated = 300 True

750 * 150 metres per second (300 knots) = 112,500 thrust watts

112.5 TKw = (prop 75%) = 150 Kw = 200 hp

200 hp is 75% power of a 270 hp engine.

 

200 hp is 50% power on a VW V10. One which has been heat treated should never come close to wearing itself out. In Dr Hans eyes, the initial outlay on the engine is repayed by not having to re build the engine for many years.

 

Using the Thielert's fuel figures of 0.208 kg/kw/hr

150 * 0.208 = 31.2 Kg/hr Jet A1

31.2 Kg = 39 litres /hr

 

 

SO, for Dr Hans

300 knots = 40 litres per hour, at 50% power in a big V10.

Dr Hans is happy with his math

 

 

[LargePrime]

And you can run it on home heating oil!

 

Might i make a suggestion.

 

Y not look at the 1.9PD TDI 4 cylinder. It can do 150 HP stock, and there is a huge community modding the he$$ out of it. It is becoming an interesting race motor and should fulfill most of your power needs.

 

If this idea has merit perhaps it should be in its own thread?

[No4]

Hallo Largeprime,

Well actualy you could run it on vegetable oil, or the slops out of a deep fat fryer, but thats a different story..

(Goggles On etc)

I would have choosen the Volvo D5 @ 200 hp , I wonder how Helge in Denmark is going? From my doing my maths homework, I just don't get the same smile as when the hp figure is over 250 .

I've lost a lot of sleep on this V10, and I'm not complaining. I actualy tried designing a way to join two D5's before VW came up with the goods.

 

I think we agreed elsewhere that you're the guru on injection. I take it that is where a lot of improvement has been made with the diesels.

Anything you have to share on tuning diesels is much appreciated.

Would they be getting 200 hp out of the 1.9? Why not a new thread indeed?

 

I've been running a few engines through that Ray Hall Turbo sizer.

I suppose Diesel might be a bit different, but it looks like the turbo really is working well. I think most were boosting to about 15 psi at full chipped up noise. Any more and I heard the rods start bending from the torque.

 

I think I forget to say clearly that my main reason for choosing a diesel is the greatly reduced fire risk from it's low volatility.

Just for the record.

[LargePrime]

Biodiesel is a hobby of mine!

 

Of course we are pontificating here more than anything else, but if we are gonna do it, lets do it well.

 

A few years ago the VW racing team was pulling 240 out of the 1.9L. This was before the 4 valve head and the PD tech.

 

Here are some links of racers that are getting 220BHP

 

http://www.vwracing.co.uk/forsale.php

http://www.vwmotorsport.com/news/News.asp?ID=67

http://216.119.100.213/news/News.asp?ID=27

 

VW makes the most passanger diesels and more work has gone into, and is going into, the 1.9 than just about any other. It has a bullet proof history even among racers. I belive the 1.9 will get more than enough HP for our needs. As well we will have more than enough cold air to make even more power.

 

But it gets even better. Next generation TDI have cylinder pressure potential so hi they are reaching the limits of grey cast iron. They are now making them out of different metals to 1) allow even higher pressurs and 2) lower weight for even better milage and performance.

 

If I was gonna dream I would build a flat 4 block, crank, and heads for the TDI and make an experimental aircraft engine out of it. Keep all the dimensions the same and use all we know about it.

 

You could even run it direct drive. Look at the HP curve. almost max at 2700 RPM and flat/lower after that. Why run a Gear drive if it only gives you less HP and a worse BSFC while adding weight?

 

Most all the racing TDI development is done on your side of the pond. AFAIK there is not a single diesel performence/race shop in the USA.

 

I cant see a good reason to choose a V10 over a inline 4.

 

My main purpose would be cost. $0.80 a gal is very pretty. If it's warm use free veg oil.

Thats so pretty it brings a tear to my eye.

[mplafleur]

$0.80 per gallon?

 

It costs about $0.50 per gallon to make biodiesel.

[dust]

AFAIK there is not a single diesel performence/race shop in the USA.

 

you have not been watching !trucks on saterday and sunday each week, mostly on how to boost diesel performance

 

reprogram

re exhaust

propane inject

funny gas inject

more turbo

 

enjoy the build

 

Dust

[HM Andersen]

What Helge in Denmark is doing?

I am suggesting you think twice before puring biodiesel on the strakes, it might get rancid in the summerheat before the economic diesel engine has emptied the tanks.

I am still going for the D5.I have also considered to leave the reduction gear,but dicided to use a cogged belt reduction.

Then I get the propellorshaft elevated to where it belongs,and I get the bearings that I know will hold the prop.

I am not sure the crankshaft has got the pressure bearings needed for the longitudinal force.

Also I believe I need max power (4000 rpm ) for takeoff on my grass runway.

No4 if you want to use the V10 I suggest you build the main spar with a big -O- in the middle.This you can put your engine into and get your balance right.Thats what I would have done if it was the only way to fit the desired diesel.

Hilsen Helge

[No4]

Hallo Helge,

Good to hear the D5 is coming on nicely, I think you might have the worlds first Diesel Cozy.

 

I havn't seen a power curve for the 1.9, but I would imagine it peaks closer to 3750 rpm. Added to which the gyroscopic and asymetric torque loadings of direct drive on the crank might not be a good thing. I personaly prefer the reduction drive, like Helge says, it brings the prop up higher as well.

 

You are right that it sounds an ideal candidate for a Cozy IV, and the V10 is COMPLETELY unneccesary, but if I am going to build a plane, I want "The Beast", no discussion necessary. Mine will be a two seater with ultra long range tanks. I want to see this lovely planet of ours.

 

Over here in NZ, avgas costs about US$ 0.60 cents a litre, whilst diesel only $0.30. The Diamond Star with a Lyco IO-360 burns 35 litres per hour at 135 knots, or US$ 21; whilst the Thielert Tdi burns 18.5 lph, or US$ 5.55 .

 

Doing the math, thats a saving of US $ 15.45 per hour! Remarkable indeed. On the life of a Thielert (2000 hrs), one would save an incredible US $ 30,900 in fuel costs. Same for the rotary guys (lights blue touch paper and retreats to the dug out).

 

MMMmmmmmmm, propane and nitrous now we're talking!

Blue flames coming out of the tailpipe, should look speccy at night!

 

[altruistic]

im thinking the perfect bottle for the propane would be an old kevlar oxy bottle. tough as, super light and designed to withstand 2000 psi. Propane liqiufys at 150 psi approx allowing a huge safety margin. im a major fan of biodiesel and both my landcruiser ute and my patrol wagon run diesel. if it will run on biodiesel its almost free flying.

[altruistic]

id make damn sure the biodiesel doesnt affect the epoxy first

[airwrench]

Given the unvented fever at which my state, Indiana, is pursuing bio-diesel manufactoring.............it would seem that this alternative fuel will undoubtedly become much more available in the short term. Two new plants have been announced in the past couple months, one being only sixty miles from me. Are we ready for aviation diesels? ( way past ready) Like many point out, the economics are pretty simple for those of us whom like to fly.

Will they ever become "the" alternative engine? (most likely) What do I think of the V10? More moving parts, more chance of failure, yet I applaud all whom go for it. :D

[Richard Riley]

Anyone have an idea on the weight of the V10? I've got an application (non aviation, but weight sensitive) that it might be good for.