Turbo Charging A Lycoming

[Dave Clifford]

Dust forgot to add that though this individual is a retired G.M. engineer and is VERY familiar with the Auto turbo's, he was not familiar with the aero turbo's. He believed the areo's may be ceramic or made of a different material to handle the constant use at high altitudes airplanes fly at. He believes that they(aeros) operate at much higher temps. I for one would like a side by side comparison or technical data from Garrett, as they manufacture both.

[Aaron]

I just reviewed the thread and apparently I can't read very well.

 

I do still beleive that the turbo's in use in cars are the same animal used in diesel engines and in aircraft use as well.

 

A prime example is the TA04 and T04 turbo systems. Both made by Garrett, they are both the same size, have the same clearances, etc. The TA04 is used in aircraft and the T04 is used in diesel and autos.

 

I'll try to get some definitive info on these two turbos to confirm they are identical, except for certification.

 

Greg Richter was using a T04 to the best of my knowledge, a turbo quite common in automotive circles.

 

He believes that they(aeros) operate at much higher temps.

Why does beleive that aero turbos operate at higher temps? The EGTs of airplane, autos, and diesel engines are in the same range. Compression ratios are in the same range (or lower in the case of a normalization turbo), turbine speeds are the same.

 

So I don't understand why the turbo be hotter in an airplane? Is it the constant use idea? What about diesels, which are also constant use?

 

Sorry for all the questions, I too am in search of knowledge.

[dust]

Well Clifford, as I talk to Tom more than you, we drive an hour each week to and from cliffords for plane day, he said that the modern auto turboes have ceramic blades.

 

His information was as I said it, he didn't know if they would work because they have been designed to handle the typical auto "duty cycle" loads and not the continious duty aircraft loads.

 

I think HM Andersen brought great info to the table and aaron probably knows more than i on the subject.

 

It's always hard to be objective and not bring your predisposed feelings to the conversations. I like airplane engines and parts, can't help it. But I can also appreciate the lure of the auto conversion.

 

Maybe an auto turboe will work just fine, but ifin i was going to try it, it sounds like HM Andersen's advice might be worth looking into.

 

After all, the damn aircraft technology is damn OLD.

[LargePrime]

Every single turbo engine I am aware of is designed for continous use.

 

I know of know way or reason for a turbo to be used in temporary bust senarios. This includes every Ford, GM, and Chrysler Turbo.

 

Check with your frend. If he knows turbos there is a missunderstanding someware.

[dust]

Well yes, they are always working but they aren't always WORKING. Without back preasure they don't produce preasure and just sort of idle, diferent than constant preasure generation as in an aircraft or other constant high power applications.

 

I must say this subject has more than sparked my interest from a theoretical to the practical viewpoint.

 

Hold on john, don't fall out of your chair. Maybe I won't buy the tsio and will do it with a non 50lb 1969 (1959? design) aircraft turbo (see no e this time, i can learn spelling).

[marbleturtle]

... I double dog dare ya to hook up that Chrysler turbo!

 

You'll fall out of the sky faster than my kitty getting unstuck from a telephone pole with the good aim of my slingshot!

[Dave Clifford]

Marbleturtle,

Why don't you tell us WHY we will fall out of the sky?? Please include some FACTS and not opinions in your posts. Thanks.

[LargePrime]

Did I miss something? Why would a chrysler Turbo fail in this application?

 

A turbo is a turbo is a turbo. What its on does not matter. Some of the early aircraft turbos used auto turbos.

 

Turbos have a bad rap on American cars almost exclusivly. It is mostly a operator error. Turbos need to cool down after they are run hard. When I used to race Chrysler 2.2's I used to see race drivers do a quarter mile then turn off the car. Big misstake. The turbo would cook in its own heat and coke the oil bearing. This coaked oil would score the turbo shaft. Eventualy you had a failed bearing seal. Then your turbo leaked oil and you needed a new one. Note the turbo still worked, it just leaked oil.

 

Other than oil cokeing and eating and exhaust valve there arent many ways to hurt a turbo. No matter what kind of turbo.

 

Turbo's on aircraft make all kinds of sense. I'll try and dig up a compressor map and show you.

 

Just found this

http://www.turbofast.com.au/turbomap.html

should help you dust.

 

A further note. we used to get turbos off of junk cars and rebuild them (kit cost about 100) and race them. You could get them for nothing. Then we would race them. Never had a problem.

[dust]

So what's this exhaust valve story and are you designing my twin turbo replacement for the aircraft turbo? Won't need it this weekend though.

[marbleturtle]

What tha... a turbos a turbo? Sheese... can't wait to occupy the same airspace with you in that Yugo Turboed Lyco. Why bother with someone who knows what they are doing like Garret... just get a big ol' pinwheel off of juniors' bicycle... or one of those Tornado things advertised at 3:00AM on Speed Channel.

 

You can't seriously believe that Chrysler is slapping a turbo on its cars designed for continuous full power use!

[LargePrime]

What is full power continous use mean to you regarding a turbo?

 

Garret makes all the chrysler turbos. They were off the shelf units chrysler bought. Are you suggesting Garret turbos cant do what they were designed to do?

 

Are you suggesting that a Chrysler turbo can't handle full throttle during a sustained period? Anyone who ever raced turbos will tell you turbos dont break. They may break things due to the power increase, but they dont break.

 

Are you suggesting there is wear and tear on a turbo? Are you suggesting there is a life span? Can you point me to anything that suggests that? I have never read about any problem (other than thoes mentioned) with the durability of turbos.

 

This sounds to me like more automotive prejduice. But hey, if it makes you feel better for spending more... go for it.

 

BTW

Because we use such small pressure ratios they are at the very bottom of thier capacity.

[dust]

Just talked to my accident investigator/dar buddy and he said that one of the continentals has a "truck" Garrett turbo on it. Right off of a truck, I guess some were unhappy to pay airplane prices for a truck part.

 

His words are - GO FOR IT, so keep the info cmin, next thing you know I'll be hookin up a f'in rotory to it

[Dave Clifford]

Marbleturtle,

Again, back up your comments with some factual data. Otherwise, S.T.F.U.!!!!

[marbleturtle]

Here we go again...

 

Okay, I'll admit that most of my experience is with automotive turbo applications... but that is what we are discussing here so I'll throw out a few thoughts on the subject.

 

First I'll say that I like turbos in automotive applications. I've had several. As for Chrysler, the only turbocharged vehicle I know of they currently carry is the truck with the Cummins Diesel... Garrett builds the Turbo for Cummings if I remember correctly. The Chrysler turbo cars from the 80's and early 90's did not have Garrett turbos. If I remember correctly, they bought them from Mitsubishi. Unfortunately Chrysler almost went broke with these cars under warranty. In High School, my friend Mike would always get to the McDonalds first in his LeBarron Turbo. But while I was flirting with Tracey trying to get a free McRib, Mike was still idling out in the parking lot. 3 turbos later, he gave up cooling off the turbo, and Tracey got fat.

 

Years later I asked my mechanic why the Lotus Esprit SE would not allow full turbo boost for more than 10 seconds. "The Turbo would melt." Then I lived 5000' feet up on a mountain with a nice view. It was a fun drive in an Audi Turbo Quattro. That was the only time I could drive full throttle for more than 30 seconds, but that turbo would glow red by the time I reached the driveway. A few years later and a used Porsche Turbo became the transportation of choice. That one almost killed me... threw me off the mountain in a driving rain. Interesting car though... air (oil) cooled flat six with a big honkin turbo charger. Now its the reassurance of all-wheel-drive backed up by a twin turbo V6 in an Audi A6. Only the new Subaru WRX Sti 300hp turbo could possibly pry me out of this car.

 

Take a look at the Turbos from Chrysler, Lotus, Porsche, Audi. The ones from Chrysler and Lotus were light, tinny metal, pieces of crap. The Audi and Porsche turbos' use heavy cast metal and were well made. But I seriously doubt even these excellent turbos could withstand continuous full application of power. Its not wear and tear you would need to worry about... its the ability to withstand a continuous blast funace of heat coming from an engine generation high power against high resistance continuously.

 

Automotive applications were not designed for this... get one from a Semi tractor or farm tractor. They are designed for full power against high continuous loads. To believe an automotive application would work is living in a fool's paradise... or as my Dad would say... willful ignorance.

 

How's that Dust?

[dust]

he he he he he he he he he he he he he, now thats talkin and I'm afraid largeprime will have to answer it, can you hear this large, wait, i'll shout, CAN YOU HEAR THIS LARGE.

[LargePrime]

Sorry for the delay. I was off doing usefull things.

 

Anyone else notice there were no factual or third party accounts. No references at all.

 

When I was a kid I flew my Lebaron GTS into space and never had a problem. Got photoed lots of times as a UFO. Man that was fun. I could cool water to ice on the turbo (for drinks) it was so cool.

 

Now call me a liar.

 

Addressing the few facts in the turtle's post...

 

If Chrysler lost money so bad why did they build and refine the turbo for nearly 20 years? That engine and turbo was the center of chrysler racing for years. Thats in the rally racing class, much tuffer than the silly popular racing. Race teams used the stock turbo. They traded up to a higher A/R Turbo housing if the class allowed it. Fords 2.3L turbo is used in cars and trucks still.

 

Like I said they did have cokeing problems. And that was an operator issue. Your gross exaguration of 3 min cool down aside, a simple 20 sec. spin down would be fine. Either way in an aircraft application, like I said, and you didn't address, the Presure Ratio is so small that it's hardly an issue. On the Turbine side cooling wont be a problem in an aircraft doing 150+ MPH, unlike an sporty automobile putting out even more heat (if it has more than 200 HP, and they all do) and going not even half the speed.

 

I could regail you all with tales of racing, but I kinda like facts.

 

Sorry it's probably not as much fun.

[Dave Clifford]

LargePrime,

Yes, I have noticed there is no factual data also, which is what I was looking for when I posed this question. Go figure? Just confirms my belief there are WAY too many people that don't know what they are talking about, yet pretend they do!!

[Aaron]

Originally posted by marbleturtle

Automotive applications were not designed for this... get one from a Semi tractor or farm tractor. They are designed for full power against high continuous loads. To believe an automotive application would work is living in a fool's paradise... or as my Dad would say... willful ignorance.

A few tests the Garrett GT series AUTOMOTIVE turbochargers go through: (www.turbobygarrett.com)

 

A 1000 hour on engine durability test.

 

A 500 hour cyclic Gas stand - According to Garrett a "Beat the crap out of the turbo" test

 

A 200 hour Thermal cycle test-Every 10 minutes cycling the turbo from low temperature to cherry red.

 

Marble, it seems to me the reason you feel an automotive turbo won't work is this:

All the automotive turbos you've had experience with were designed to make full boost at low engine speed.

 

This generates lots of heat at higher operating speeds.

 

The properly sized turbo for an aircraft engine would in general have a larger turbine housing, so full boost occurs only at full engine rpms. Proper design and sizing of the turbine will prevent heat concerns.

 

Again the key is matching the turbo size to the application.

[dust]

Well, I have reviewed all of this not quite perfect info, and I think it all adds up to the same info.

 

Use a turbo ( or maybe 2) that is designed for the application you are using it for. Wether it is labelled auto, truck, tractor, aircraft, or hot air balloon.

 

Determine the size needed and the rest takes care of itself.

________________________

For me Aarons last post

 

It seems the reason you feel an automotive turbo won't work is all the automotive turbos you've had experience with were designed to make full boost at low engine speed. This generates lots of heat at higher operating speeds.

____________________________

 

puts it all together.

 

Now for those calculations

 

My concern is not on a lycoming, as i may buy a continental, but i will have to change the piping of the turbo i am getting and it looks like switching out the 1965 turbo may be a great way to go.

[marbleturtle]

Gee... I feel so bad about not quoting facts about automotive turbochargers hooked up to Lycoming engines in aircraft when there is so much raw data available.

 

Bad MarbleTurtle.

[dust]

Bad MarbleTurtle.Bad MarbleTurtle.Bad MarbleTurtle.Bad MarbleTurtle.Bad MarbleTurtle.Bad MarbleTurtle.Bad MarbleTurtle.Bad MarbleTurtle.Bad MarbleTurtle., no let me rephrase that bad clifford, bad clifford, see you in the morning

[marbleturtle]

wait... S.T.F.U?!?!?! I just found out what that means... it is something used on the supervised teen-chat sites!

 

Hey big C... where have you been spending your time on the internet? Hey I know, let me make you feel more at home...

 

"OH those N'Sink boys... aren't they just dreamy!"

"Yeah... my favorite one is Steven. He has such a cute butt."

 

 

whoops... crap. I promised John I would behave. um... okay, less sarcasm, more constructive criticism: Yur Mamma!

[John Slade]

MT,

Are you going to be at Sun & Fun?

If so, could you provide a detailed schedule of where you'll be and when..... This way I can be sure to be somewhere else at those times.

[No4]

Dust, you seem like a pretty cautious guy, and good on you. I'd have to say to be very cautious with this turbo business. With an incorrect set up you can grenade an engine in seconds. I think you really need to start thinking in manifold pressures, fuel flows, exhaust gas temperatures, rpm settings, density altitudes.

I fly a Piper arrow with a 200hp IO 360 C1C Lycoming. It is considered overboosting the motor if the MAP goes above 26 inches, 29 being sea level. Your choice of motor would then only be able to accept boost above maybe 5000 feet, and then where do you want to cruise? 9500? The pressure gradients across the exhaust and induction turbines are much different up there.

But at sea level you'll be dumping boost or needing a gate in the exhaust manifold to divert the exhaust gas from the turbo. If boost gets away on you and you can't match it with fuel flow, severe detonation occurs.

To match the fuel flow you'll need bigger pumps and injectors or carburettor. Then that creates more torque (remember torque), more horsepower, and higher exhaust gas temperatures, more rebuilds. Turbo motors usually run lower compression ratios to allow more boost. I think a standard lycoming is 8.5-1 and a turbo 7.5 to 1.

A smaller pipe means higher pressure but less flow, a fatter pipe low pressure and high flow. You'll need to calculate a balance in your plumbing. Temperature is also important. 1 degree centigrade is equivalent to 120 feet in density altitude calculations. I degree drop in induction temperature is one degree drop in exhaust gas temperature.

24 inches at 2400 rpm at 10 USGph = 150 horsepower? with 4 inches of boost (4000 feet density altitude) and an intercooler dropping the charge air to -5'C (2400 feet density altitude). You'll be ripping along at 9500 feet.

Two car turbos glowing red and spinning at 120,000 rpm? I wouldn't try it. A big spinner off a Kenworth? That's probably more like it.

But definitely talk to someone who knows all about it first.

I think the trick with twin turbos is to have two different turbos that complement each other, say in series as oppossed to parallel.

Good Luck

[marbleturtle]

Actually John I was hoping you would come up to KDNN to give me a ride to SNF! (see coffee house about thumbin to SNF) I wanted to see how the A/C was working... that and the rotary. I couldn't swing a ride with Greg's rotary before he yanked it for a turbine.

 

Puh-LEEEEEZEEE!

 

I'll give ya $10!