Looking for Polystyrene Blue Billet Blocks (aka Dow Blue Foam)

[NebraskaQuickieBuilder]

I'm in bind and need help.  I'm needing at least one 10x20x50 Blue billet block....or larger to recut a few cores.  I purchased a kit that had cores precut by a dealer but bad storage practices got some damaged by mice and digging wasps or something. Some can be fixed....some cannot.

I'm just needing some help because I can't find that size except for on the coasts and either people won't ship or its $800 to ship. Does anyone have a block or two to sell to me closer to Nebraska?

Needing a miracle and some help for my 11 year old Q200 builder and I.

Thanks!

[Kent Ashton]

AircraftSpruce sells the 8" X 16" x  ___ blocks for canard builders.  I suspect these would do for a Quickie   https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/polystyrene.php

Maybe Wicks also.  You might call OwensCorning as ask where you might find them in Nebraska.  They are sometimes used for boat docks or sliced up for insulation.  If the weight is 2 lb/cu ft, it is the same stuff.

Here is a dealer in (gulp) New Hampshire.  It is likely the same weight as we use.  I think Burt used boat-dock billets.   https://store.eastcoastlumber.net/products/dow-dock-float-billet-10x20x96|102096B.html

Edited February 5 by Kent Ashton

[NebraskaQuickieBuilder]

Unfortunately I need 20 and 24 inch wide blocks for the Q200 (LS1 Canard and wing) templates.  ACS foam is not only short on width but on thickness too at only 8 inches.  The bug foam billets are pretty hard to find since the blue EXTRUDED foam is not being produced by DOW anymore.  I found a few billets on the east and west coast but with $750 to ship them I'm looking for other options to help us out.

I know the specifications it's the "where are they" that I am shooting a flare for.....

[zolotiyeruki]

With Dow ceasing production, is anyone aware of an alternative/replacement?

[NebraskaQuickieBuilder]

They are making polystyrene blocks but now they are gray in color and are impregnated (I was told) with a carbon product......which makes them slick and less desirable to rodents. However also makes them not suitable to epoxy to ...... I almost think Dow did it as much to stop building airplanes with it as stopping animals from eating it and dying......

 

We live in the land of liabilities now. 

[NebraskaQuickieBuilder]

I hoping someone would sell me two blocks just over 50 inches so I can trim back to my working length after square up to 50 inches needed.  24 wide would absolutely rock the best and 10 inches tall....but 8 would work in a pinch.  Being shorter should be able to save on shipping since UPS can handle that size and we get away from truck shipping and taking up 2 pallet spots....

 

I'm asking for a favor from people I don't know but my 11 year old and I really want to get past this and get to building.  We have all the other components ready.....even time. 😀.

I'm reaching out to a couple of the west and east coast lumber yards that do have 96in blocks if they'd cut them down to half sized and ship them but they have all told me to pound sand.

I purchased templates online finally and my wife picked them up from the printers and they are headed home now. So that hurdle is cleared. This foam will be the last of the component issues.....the rest of the missing things are planned for and easily replaced now.

Edited February 6 by NebraskaQuickieBuilder

[Kent Ashton]

I don't know much about the Q200 but it appears a 10" block is spec'd because they want to get two cores out of a block, so maybe you can get by with the 8" blocks from Spruce cutting one core at a time.  The Rutan airplanes cut wing forms out of one piece of foam, then cut the form in half to construct shear web and center spars on the back half, then the front half is micro'd back in place.  Generally, the foam is just a shape over which to add the fiberglass spars and skins.  It may add a little to the strength but if two pieces of foam can be joined with a micro joint, I would think that'd be fine.   I'd  figure out how to use the foam from Spruce or Wicks.  If I had to join two pieces of styrofoam to cut out one shape, I would join them with dabs of pour foam-enough to hold them together for the hotwire, cut the shape, the pull them apart and rejoin them with micro.  I'd be just a good as a single contiguous shape (IMO).

http://quickheads.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2399&Itemid=790

[NebraskaQuickieBuilder]

It's the 16 inch width limit with Spruce when some cores need 18 to 20+ for the chord that is the main issue with their supply.

Edited February 6 by NebraskaQuickieBuilder

[Kent Ashton]

16 hours ago, NebraskaQuickieBuilder said:

It's the 16 inch width limit with Spruce when some cores need 18 to 20+ for the chord that is the main issue with their supply.

Well, as I said, the Rutan canards cut wing and canard cores from several foam blocks.  A wing is three sections  joined with micro.  Wings and canards are cut lengthwise  down the middle and rejoined later with micro.  I don't see why you couldn't separate your templates into half or so, and cut cores that way, join them together with micro.   Take a look at the Open-Ez builders manual and you'll see what I mean.

[NebraskaQuickieBuilder]

The biggest reason is on the canard being the landing gear loaf bearer and having a ridge length down the length of the span would probably not be wise and would stress and break free as the canard flexes quite a bit.

I'm not willing yo venture outside the envelope on this and may ne stuck foe a while until a resolution presents itself.....I don't want to kill myself or my 11 year old because dow stops foam production to save a fish (or stop homebuilders from using their products in a 3 wheeled liability concern).

 

The ACS foam will work for my wing trailing edges but will absolutely be unapproved for the 18 inch wide wing and canard main cores per thr Quickie Builder communities and ultimately myself. Just too much of a risk of the unknown.

 

I do appreciate your input and ideas though.....

[Jon Matcho]

12 hours ago, NebraskaQuickieBuilder said:

The biggest reason is on the canard being the landing gear [load] bearer...

You're building the Q200 configuration, yes? Do you have the ever-rare carbon fiber tube-spar in your "kit"?

12 hours ago, NebraskaQuickieBuilder said:

...having a ridge length down the length of the span would probably not be wise and would stress and break free as the canard flexes quite a bit.

Joining foam as Kent suggested would not weaken your structure. The last thing that would fail would be the foam-micro-foam intersections. Your canard will fail if its spar breaks, and then nothing about the foam will matter after that happens.

Kent gave you expert advice, which is how Rutan and many others since have done it since. If ACS has 8" foam blocks, they'll work (assuming you understand what Kent suggested). Ask others and I'm sure you'll get similar answers. Forget trying to find a perfectly sized foam block and expect to piece a few together.

12 hours ago, NebraskaQuickieBuilder said:

...will absolutely be unapproved for the 18 inch wide wing and canard main cores per [the] Quickie Builder communities...

There's nobody you can count on to legally approve/authorize anything, but ask around and I'm sure you'll get same/similar advice as to what Kent suggested.

12 hours ago, NebraskaQuickieBuilder said:

...and ultimately myself.

Yes, you're the builder/manufacturer and responsible for these decisions.

12 hours ago, NebraskaQuickieBuilder said:

Just too much of a risk of the unknown.

I think you're at the "too much unknown, must be risky" stage. Learn more and figure out how to reduce the risk. Many have dealt with the same exact thing, and again, landed with the solution that Kent offered to you.

[NebraskaQuickieBuilder]

Current Quickie builders have warned very clearly of NOT joining cores along the length of a core.  Only at the section of the airfoil shape and really only sparingly. That's already been proven as a no no with accident reports. 

I won't join any cores in that fashion. 

I have 3 sets of spars now.

I'm going to repair what I can and the rest will be recut where I deem it necessary. 

Going back to the original intent of this post is I'm in need of blue polystyrene billets that are 10x20x and at least 55. Would be best to have 10x24x55+

Still looking.....

Fly safe!

[NebraskaQuickieBuilder]

Also East Coast Lumber absolutely won't ship. Won't even consider. Actually, the guy I spoke with was not very pleasant....not even in the slightest.

I think I've called every Google listing. Either no stock, wrong type, or unwilling to ship. The ones that will ship have a minimum order of $1000 or more and shipping is $750.

Fun stuff!

Edited February 8 by NebraskaQuickieBuilder

[Jon Matcho]

9 hours ago, NebraskaQuickieBuilder said:

Current Quickie builders have warned very clearly of NOT joining cores along the length of a core.  Only at the section of the airfoil shape and really only sparingly. That's already been proven as a no no with accident reports. 

If you got all that from your thread on the Q-List mailing list, I don't see that being said. https://q-list.groups.io/g/main/topic/stearns_q200_core_kit/104005253 I'd also be interested in reading the actual FAA accident reports.

Done wrong your concern is valid, but it all depends on the bonding agent used. If I understand your dilemma correctly, micro may not be the best bonding agent for extending the chord from wing root to tip. You would just need a bond that is equal to or just slightly stronger than the foam itself, and as close to the mechanical properties of the foam itself. I don't know what that is, but it's out there.

Another option would be to buy the foam you're comfortable with, and cut another complete wing set and sell that to cover your costs.

[Jon Matcho]

16 hours ago, NebraskaQuickieBuilder said:

I'm in need of blue polystyrene billets that are 10x20x and at least 55. Would be best to have 10x24x55+

You definitely do not need "at least 55" inch foam. Many kits shipped with 48" foam. It's not a problem to have butt joints. You could actually consider them to be "micro spars ribs".

The other problem with getting beyond 48" is that hot wiring can become problematic, where the wire itself no longer maintains a perfectly straight line (or good enough straight line).

Edited February 8 by Jon Matcho
Changed spars to ribs.

[NebraskaQuickieBuilder]

Butt joints end to end is of course used.  Joints running the length of the structure at least in micro slurry (epoxy form) would as you've stated act as a spar.....and eliminate any flex or give in the wing and depending on where this stiffness is implemented could cause a stress point where flexibility was expected to occur compared to rigidness of an epoxy "spar".  I can't imagine only doing it on one side.....

The conversations I've referred to are coming from personal emails from reputable and known builders. Again, I'm going to have to take their experience with these Quickie Aircraft to heart since QA has been gone for so long. I'd rather be a success story printed in the local paper rather than a statistic printed in a FAA incident report.

 

I appreciate your thoughts and suggestions.....I feel unfortunately they will not make it to my build table.

 

I'll keep looking.

 

If anyone around Oregon would have any of these blocks they'd let go to us I have a shipping offer to get it into Nebraska (or close) for me.

 

Thanks everyone. 

[NebraskaQuickieBuilder]

...my main concern isn't length or thickness.....it's the WIDTH....

As I mentioned above I don't mind a butt joint as we use them as per the plans. However I just can't join two pieces down the length to extend the airfoil shape to cut a 20 or 22 inch long airfoil from two 16 inch wide blocks. Not on a load bearing wing.  An aileron....or trailing edge....maybe....but every ounce of alarm inside me along with experienced Q builders is enough to not be the guy to test it.

I guess I'll buy $1600 (2 blocks x $390 plus $800 shipping) if I have to from the grumpiest east coast guy I've ever talked to, if I have to and feel my marriage needs stress with the project right away!  Lmfao! 

[Jon Matcho]

5 hours ago, NebraskaQuickieBuilder said:

Joints running the length of the structure at least in micro slurry (epoxy form) would as you've stated act as a spar...

(bolding is mine) I made a mistake when I referred to "spar". I meant "rib". Butt joints are like "micro ribs". I was not suggesting a "micro spar", as I was trying to explain here:

6 hours ago, Jon Matcho said:

If I understand your dilemma correctly, micro may not be the best bonding agent for extending the chord from wing root to tip. You would just need a bond that is equal to or just slightly stronger than the foam itself, and as close to the mechanical properties of the foam itself. I don't know what that is, but it's out there.

It's good you're asking around, but ultimately comes down to your decision.

5 hours ago, NebraskaQuickieBuilder said:

I guess I'll buy $1600 (2 blocks x $390 plus $800 shipping) if I have to from the grumpiest east coast guy I've ever talked to, if I have to and feel my marriage needs stress with the project right away!  Lmfao!

Another option is to change your time preference from "need it now" to one that allows for more time and patience. Foam blocks exist in Oregon right now (theoretically), and you'll be surprised what you might find that comes up on barnstormers.com or on the forums somewhere. Post a "wanted" ad in the Marketplace forum here and wait a bit while you work on other areas of your project.

Just my thoughts...

[NebraskaQuickieBuilder]

Waiting is fine....but delaying my dream cost me 20 years of flying and has caused the issues I'm having now with supply.  With DOW stopping blue polystyrene production that will only get worse with time and as people figure out how bad things are I won't get any.

I also don't want this to take 20 years to complete. It's not going to be 2 years either....but staying on top of things and pressing to get the items while I can will remain a priority to stay on my target time for completion. Never been a wait and see guy.....will wait for a little bit for something to present itself and then me and the bull are gonna wrestle horns.

 

When May comes around and graduation of my son is over the garage is going to get quite busy and I hope all thr components are there....minus a built 0-200 but even then I have components ready when I am.