Registration and Modification Questions

[Anthony P]

Hello all,

I've been reading the related threads on here about the above questions and would like some more help if available.

Short of contacting the FSDO, DAR, and local EAA, what are your opinions or suggestions on the following questions?

1. Current experimental aircraft registration: Type incorrect, Manufacture date missing, Engine manufacturer incorrect, Engine model missing.

How much of a pain is this going to be to correct? Is this something I should get corrected before buying? If I attempt this correction after purchase, what form/evidence will I need?

 

2. If not referenced in the Operating Limitations for the aircraft, what am I going to have to do to change the engine (manufacturer and model) on a kit built experimental aircraft that I did not build?

 

Thank you and happy 4th, Anthony

 

[Kent Ashton]

1 hour ago, Anthony P said:

1. Current experimental aircraft registration: Type incorrect, Manufacture date missing, Engine manufacturer incorrect, Engine model missing.

How much of a pain is this going to be to correct? Is this something I should get corrected before buying? If I attempt this correction after purchase, what form/evidence will I need?

2. If not referenced in the Operating Limitations for the aircraft, what am I going to have to do to change the engine (manufacturer and model) on a kit built experimental aircraft that I did not build?

Need more info on the first question. Is this an actual FAA registration, i.e. an FAA Form 8050-3 and does the aircraft have an Airworthiness Certificate?  A pic of the registration or link to the N-number in the FAA Registry would help to understand what you have.  Registration information can be corrected if you own the airplane   https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraft_registry/

An engine change is a major change.  Your Ops Limits should say what to do but it is discussed here in Appendix D, Table D-1  https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentID/1031547   i.e., Letter to the FAA, fill out a form 8130-6, logbook entry, test for 5+ hrs, certify compliance in the logbook.  It is usually wise to update your Ops limits to the latest version--they have gotten more liberal over the years. 

Quote

After incorporating a major change as described in § 21.93, the aircraft owner is required to reestablish compliance with § 91.319(b) and notify the geographically responsible FSDO of the location of the proposed test area. The aircraft owner must obtain concurrence from the FSDO as to the suitability of the proposed test area. If the major change includes installing a different type of engine (reciprocating to turbine) or a change of a fixed-pitch from or to a controllable propeller, the aircraft owner must fill out a revised FAA Form 8130-6 to update the aircraft’s file in the

FAA Aircraft Registration Branch, AFS-750. All operations must be conducted under day visual flight rules (VFR) conditions over a sparsely populated area in compliance with § 91.305. The aircraft must remain in flight test for a minimum of 5 hours. The FSDO may require additional time (more than 5 hours) depending on the extent of the modification. Persons nonessential to the flight must not be carried. The aircraft owner must make an aircraft maintenance record entry describing the change before the test flight. Following satisfactory completion of the required number of flight hours in the flight test area, the pilot must certify in the records that the aircraft has been shown to comply with § 91.319(b). Compliance with § 91.319(b) must be recorded in the maintenance records with the following, or a similarly worded, statement: “I certify that the prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous characteristics or design features, and is safe for operation. (23)

Your insurance company may care about the exact engine too so probably wise to send them a letter.

Edited July 4, 2020 by Kent Ashton

[Anthony P]

N162NL is an example.  Not a gyroplane.  Don't know how this got soo screwed up.

But, my question was generic regarding correcting FAA experimental aircraft registrations.

Your info on engine changes makes sense.  I was wondering if there was a significant difference between a plans built aircraft and a kit built aircraft in terms of engine changes or other large deviations from the plans/kit.

 

Thanks a lot Kent for gathering and sharing all of the information you do. I have learned a lot in the last 9 months.

Edited July 4, 2020 by Anthony P

[Kent Ashton]

Is N162NL your plane?  As far as I can tell N162NL is in order.  https://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=162NL    It says "Unknown engine" but the FAA issued an Airworthiness Certificate.  If it has Operating Limitations assigned and the proper logbook entries, it looks OK to me.

There is no difference in the operation and maintenance of a plans or kit-built airplane (unless it is Light Sport about which am ill-informed).  Once they are registered, get their A.C.and their Operating Limitations, they are all about the same although the Operating Limitations can be tailored to the particular airplane, as the DAR/FAA sees fit.  It comes down to the fact that anyone can maintain and modify an "Experimental-Amateur Built" airplane (plans- or kit-built) in accordance with the Ops Limits for _that_ airplane AND you can also perform the annual condition inspection if you are an A&P or were issued a Repairman Certificate for that particular airplane.

But you have to read the O.Ls carefully.  For example my 2002-vintage O.L.s do not say anything about informing the FAA if I wanted to change the engine.  I just have to treat it as a major change and make the appropriate tests and logbook entries.  I guess the recent O.L.s have added  requirements to inform the FAA and fill out a form.  BTW, my registration and A.C. do not show what engine I'm using.

Thanks for the kind words.  🙂

[Anthony P]

No, it's not my plane.  And,  you are making my point.  It's not even a plane, it's a helicopter. 😤

Because it's a kit, we know the engine manufacturer and the engine model. The model of the aircraft is named after the engine for goodness sake.

We also know the manufacture year.  I'm at a loss as to how this could be "in order".

If this is how the FAA rolls, then I guess I can write anything I want on the registration.

 

[Kent Ashton]

Sorry but I’m lost.   If It is not your plane why do care?   I don’t know what you’re trying to correct, or why, on what airplane.   You referred to a complete gyrocopter registration for N162nl but you say it’s a helicopter.   Either way, that doesn’t matter.  The registration for N162nl is complete and acceptable to the FAA.    There is no reason to change it that I can see.   There is nothing wrong with “naming the model of the airplane after the engine”.  A builder can use anything he wants for a model name.    The model number of N162nl is a “162F”.   Perfectly acceptable.
 

[Anthony P]

You have already answered my question, so I think I'm just taking up valuable space on the interweb. But here we go...

Why do I care:

1. If my government is going to keep records, I at least want them to be correct. Otherwise, stop bothering and give the taxes back to me/us.

2. I'm investigating this aircraft as a potential purchase and want to know why the record is incorrect and how to fix it. Wouldn't you want the records to be complete and correct before purchasing an aircraft?

You say the registration is acceptable to the FAA. I guess it is, but why?

The proof of incorrect/incomplete registration is in this ad. https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Piston+Helicopters&make=ROTORWAY&model=EXEC+162F&listing_id=2375298&s-type=aircraft

The registration should look like that of N99TE. (except, not deregistered)

Thanks again, Anthony

[Kent Ashton]

2 hours ago, Anthony P said:

2. I'm investigating this aircraft as a potential purchase and want to know why the record is incorrect and how to fix it. Wouldn't you want the records to be complete and correct before purchasing an aircraft?

You say the registration is acceptable to the FAA. I guess it is, but why?

The proof of incorrect/incomplete registration is in this ad. https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Piston+Helicopters&make=ROTORWAY&model=EXEC+162F&listing_id=2375298&s-type=aircraft

The registration should look like that of N99TE. (except, not deregistered)

Thanks again, Anthony

Yes there are minor differences in way the two aircraft (N162NL and N99TE) are identified but the differences are inconsequential.  The registration for N162NL is not "incorrect", just different.  The FAA does not generally dictate what a builder calls his experimental airplane or how he identifies his [non-certified] engine.  Within reason, what the builder puts in the forms is what the FAA clerks enter into the database.  It appears to me that N162F was properly registered and certificated and has been flying for 237 hours.

Edited July 5, 2020 by Kent Ashton

[Anthony P]

If I labeled my helicopter as a lighter-than-air ship, do you think ATC would be scratching their heads when I made my inbound call?

[Kent Ashton]

3 hours ago, Anthony P said:

If I labeled my helicopter as a lighter-than-air ship, do you think ATC would be scratching their heads when I made my inbound call?

Ok, this is getting fun:  You are planning to buy an experimental helicopter built from a Rotorway kit by a gent called Limor Nachshon, who called it a "Gyroplane" right?   ATC does not look at your registration  forms when you make an inbound call.  All they know is the aircraft type you filed in your flight plan or what you say when you call in, or what they see out the window.   It appears you would file Aircraft Type ZZZZ.    When you call in you would use terminology "Experimental Helicopter N162NL" to the tower and "Helicopter N162NL" to other ATC.   ATC would also understand "Rotorway N162NL" although strictly speaking, Rotorway was not the manufacturer.  Nobody in ATC cares about the model number, the engine, or that the registration says "gyroplane".   Change it if you like but it won't matter to anyone but you.

https://support.foreflight.com/hc/en-us/articles/204480765-What-model-or-type-designation-should-I-use-for-my-aircraft-when-filing-?mobile_site=true

https://www.icao.int/publications/DOC8643/Pages/SpecialDesignators.aspx

But to answer your question, if you filed your flight plan as aircraft type "BALL" (balloon), and called in as "Balloon N162NL, you might have them scratching their heads.   🙂

Edited July 5, 2020 by Kent Ashton
“UHEL” for weights <1000 lbs

[Marc Zeitlin]

3 hours ago, Kent Ashton said:

It appears you would file Aircraft Type ZZZZ.

Well, actually, if you go to the second link and search for "Rotorway", there are five approved designators depending upon which Rotorway model it is - no need for the "ZZZZ".

But you're correct that ATC doesn't give a crap about what the FAA's database says the plane is, as long as you call it the right thing when you talk to them.

Now, being somewhat obsessive, _I'd_ want to correct the wrong information in the database, and I'd ask the current owner to do so before I bought it - they could contact their local FSDO to get instructions on how to change the incorrect information (and there's no "major change" involved - you're only changing data in the database - you're not actually changing the aircraft). If the owner doesn't want to, since the helicopter's been flying just fine for 15 years with incorrect info in the database (which could be an issue for the insurance company, since THAT's the info they use to determine how much they're going to charge you), you can always make the corrections yourself after you buy the thing. The FAA isn't going to argue with you about it - you just have to fill in and submit the right forms.

[Anthony P]

Ok, Got it.

Thanks everyone.

 

Regarding my second question in the original post, I asked that because I'm also interested in installing a 4 cyl. D-motor in a Dragonfly. That question has been answered here.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Anthony P