Love flying, tight budget, no garage yet...should I?

[Scubafly]

Hello, my name is Jeremy and I have had the flying bug since my first ride in an ultralight (Tucan 2000 I do believe) at the Sun n Fun fly-in back in the early 80's ( was around 8 years old at the time). I have lived in Lakeland most of my life and will be moving BACK to Lakeland here in another week or so. I've done a lot of thinking and research into home built aircraft. I like the overall cost as opposed to buying a factory built. I am looking to build a X-Country machine with low op costs and speed being the main mission, with comfort weighing in pretty heavily as well.

 

I have been reading posts on this forum and haven't quite figured out how comfortable the cabin actually is. I am 6'0" 220lb... 36" waist and apx 42" chest. I have read about the velocity also and it looks like it would be the best choice as far as comfort goes...or is it? I really don't think the comfort of the velocity justifies paying the Vel price. Are there any builders or Cozy Mk IV flyers out there with similar build that can tell me thier experience with it? I'm an extremely fast learner and am confident that I can build from plans (though the idea of a ton of jigs and templates adding to cost and time is really depressing), but not sure how well I will fare making modifications so I would like to avoid them if possible.

 

By the way....how much above and beyond the price of the plans and materials does it cost to make the jigs/ templates?

 

 

*---contemplating---*

[Marc Zeitlin]

Originally posted by Scubafly

....I like the overall cost as opposed to buying a factory built. I am looking to build a X-Country machine with low op costs and speed being the main mission, with comfort weighing in pretty heavily as well.

Don't build an airplane because you think it's cheaper than a spam-can - it's not. Don't build an airplane because you want a certain kind of airplane or some specific performance. Build an airplane because you can think of nothing (and I mean NOTHING) better to do with your time than build an airplane.

 

NONE of the aircraft you're contemplating are particularly cheap to operate - COZY's run anywhere from ~$35/hr for a subaru powered minamally configured version to ~$80/hr for your standard IFR equipped Lycoming version.

 

Notwithstanding what Nat says, you won't build a Lycoming equipped COZY with a decent panel for less than $50K, and the Velocity's are much more. For the same money, you can get a perfectly decent spam can that's well equipped and be flying immediately, with decent speed and comfort.

 

If you want a homebuilt, but aren't DYING to build, BUY an aircraft - Velocity's and COZY's come up for sale all the time. You get all the advantages of experimentals without the 3 - 10 year build time.

 

Build because you want to build, not because you want to fly.

 

.... By the way....how much above and beyond the price of the plans and materials does it cost to make the jigs/ templates?

Jigs and templates are by far the cheapest thing you will do on the aircraft - if they add up to $200 total, it's a lot.

[Scubafly]

The news on the jig cost is good. (Obviously I have no experience with composites... like how you shape your foam perfectly..) I do love "creating" things...and like the idea of knowing what goes into the aircraft...the inside and outs. Which would also make it easier to fix things, if you're the one who made it in the first place.

[FloridaFlyer]

NONE of the aircraft you're contemplating are particularly cheap to operate - COZY's run anywhere from ~$35/hr for a subaru powered minamally configured version to ~$80/hr for your standard IFR equipped Lycoming version.

Marc, I understand how a subaru powered aircraft can reduce operating cost by using auto gas. Why does IFR vs. VFR matter? It seems to me that the only difference in operating costs between various Cozy's would be engine type. Of course, fixed costs can vary widely depending on whether you use a hangar/tiedown, etc.

 

From reading about your Cozy flying, it seems that you mainly fly VFR. Is the plane equipped for IFR? Would you mind stating roughly how much your panel cost?

 

Build an airplane because you can think of nothing (and I mean NOTHING) better to do with your time than build an airplane.

Not a builder yet, but this sounds like sage advice!

[Scubafly]

$35 an hour?... what fuel burn are you using? I have read between 8-10 gph. so it can't be more than my piper cherokee 140 which burns 8-10 gph and barely any oil. Of course you are probably considering maintenance costs, and fuel may be more expensive where u are, but it can't be much more than having an annual done every year and paying an A&P to do all the work needed.

[John Slade]

Build an airplane because you can think of nothing (and I mean NOTHING) better to do with your time than build an airplane.

 

I disagree with Marc here, but in a subtle way.

 

Fact is I decided to build a Cozy for all the reasons Scubafly listed. I wanted a low cost, fast, X country airplane, and I didnt want (read was unable) to spend the big bucks needed to get over 125kt in a spam can. I owned a Piper PA-160 and found 110 kts from NY to FL and back not much better than driving. Sure, I like making stuff, but the size of the airplane project was a bit daunting. I was determined to do it because I wanted a fast, inexpensive airplane.

 

Marc's pretty much right with the cost. $50 all done unless you skimp a great deal on the engine and avionics. I found that that project broke down into three parts, airframe, engine, avionics, each of which cost around $15k. But spread over 5 years or so that's only $10k / year, or less than $800+ / month. Think of it another way - $15k for the airframe spread over 5 years = $250 / month, then you have a couple of nasty big bills at the end As for running costs, I'm expecting (hoping for) MUCH less than Marc quoted - 8 gals/hr of autogas @ 1.80/gal = approx $14/hr. I can replace my entire (Mazda) engine with a new one for less than $5k so I don't have to amortize large sums / hr for maintenance, repair and rebuilts. Maybe with tie down, plugs and other bits and pieces I might get up to $20 or $25/hr. I can't see how it would be more.

 

Anyway, I kinda got into this for the wrong reasons. However, and it's a big however, I've never had as much fun as this, and the pure satisfaction of creating this beautiful airplane is almost too much to bear. But - I learned these facts only after buying the plans, investing the tools and the materials for the first few chapters and diving in. My motivation was all wrong, but I learned as a went along that, as Marc says, this isnt so much about owning the airplane as it is about building it.

 

Hope that helps more than it confuses.

 

Oh, by the way - I also considered Velocity. My thoughts on that and other project starting issues are included in the intoduction page of my web site - http://kgarden.com/cozy/intro.htm

You might find this useful background reading.

[Jim Sower]

<... I am 6'0" 220lb... 36" waist and apx 42" chest ...>

I'm 6'3", 250#, 38W, 44-46 chest, etc. I fly a Velocity and can't wait to get my Cozy built. If I can fit in Slade's standard cockpit (almost) I will fit in a slightly modified "Cozy Magnum" just fine. That's not a significant issue. I agree with John on the rest. I wouldn't take a 110kt spam can as a gift. Hell, I make 75 over the ground on 12 hr trips driving. I can give a Cherokee or C-172 a run for it's money anything under 600-800 mi.

 

Go with the Cozy. Don't worry about engine options until the airframe is done.

 

My .02 ... Jim S.

[Marc Zeitlin]

Originally posted by FloridaFlyer

Marc, I understand how a subaru powered aircraft can reduce operating cost by using auto gas. Why does IFR vs. VFR matter?

More expensive panel.

 

From reading about your Cozy flying, it seems that you mainly fly VFR. Is the plane equipped for IFR? Would you mind stating roughly how much your panel cost?

I only fly VFR, because I'm only rated VFR (yet). The plane is now equipped for IFR, since I just installed a NARCO NAV-122. I have full VFR equipment, one COM, a transponder, Navaid autopilot, electric turn coordinator, handheld GPS, two vacuum gyros, and the new NAV. All steam gages - no EFIS, no electronic gyros, no engine monitors. Couldn't tell you what the panel cost exactly - I'd guess in the $7K range by the time you got through with everything. I bought some new, some used, some EBAY.

 

 

With respect to operating costs at 100 hours of flying time/yr:

 

For a $50K airplane, assuming no depreciation but no appreciation either (never can tell) and a 8% cost of money (historical appreciation rate of the Dow), it's $4K/yr just to own the thing. So:

 

fixed costs -

money cost: $4000

tie down or hangar: $500 - $5000 (depending upon location)

annual: $500 - $2000

Total: $5K - 11K

 

That's $50/hr to $110/hr, and you haven't flown any yet. Now, if you assume that the plane will appreciate, this will change substantially, but I don't think that you can rely on that. Obviously, there's a large range of costs here. Carl Denk, who's been flying his O-320 powered COZY III for 10 years or so, figures on $70-80/hr for everything at 70 hr/yr.

 

An auto engine will certainly decrease the operating costs (as will using auto fuel in a Lycoming), but it will also substantially decrease the worth of the aircraft (as witnessed by the few COZY's with auto conversions that have sold). There are a LOT of factors here, and there's no way to predict exactly for anyone what they will be.

[CBarber]

I too wanted a fast cross country four place bird for much less money. I look forward to flying my own plane, not a questionable rental (ymmv). But, I am loving the build too. Many of the points John mentioned I agree with.....even if I did go with the Velocity (without a center stick, duel yokes instead), sorry Jim.

 

I am still happy with my Velocity "slow build" kit (even I, a "kit" builder, scoff at the extra $18,000 for fast build options). Now that I have developed many fiberglass skills, the idea of a scracth built plane is not as donting (sp?) as it originally seemed, however, I still like my choice. I did not have to create my "tub" from scracth, nor hot wire any foam (at least for this project and for me, I am glad I didn't have to do these things, again, ymmv), but I have learned a great deal and look forward to each hour I build. Try to break it down into mini projects and it is not as overwelming. Also, a $16k airframe cost of a Cozy is more appealing than the $26 it has cost me, however, with a rotary engine, I am still hoping to get in the air for around $50kish (until I decide on my upgraded avionics etc. <g>)

 

As to comfort...it is your plane, make it what you want....leather is something I like, but some b**** about the added weight and cost....but it is your plane, do what you like, but like most of aviation, it can be a compromise.

 

I cannot adequatley express the sense of pride/accomplishment/enjoyment I get from this, one of my life long dreams. If not now, WHEN?

 

Good luck and Welcome.

 

All the best,

 

Chris

(who is glad this is called the "Canard Forum" even though it is on hte Cozy server and who may be the lone current Velocity builder in the fourm:D )

[karoliina]

~$35/hr for a subaru powered minamally configured version to ~$80/hr for your standard IFR equipped Lycoming version.

 

Interesting that IFR thing is because in Finland it is not possible

to use any experimental aircraft in IFR flight. Only factory built

aircrafts can be certified to IFR flight here as far as I know - one

can equip his/her aircraft for IFR flight, but can't fly with IFR plan

(in other words, not even fly over clouds if there are no substantial holes

in the clouds where the ground can be seen).

Therefore because the restrictions are that you only fly on

daytime and below the clouds and with VFR rules (you look

what is happening around and you are responsible for

avoiding aircrafts that are not equipped with radios etc.),

how would that going be successful

if someone would build a Viperjet here for example? In other words,

if someone cruises with an experimental aircraft (such

as Viperjet) at 450 knots,

I bet that it will be tricky to notice slowly moving aircrafts on

a ordinary Finnish day when the cloud height is 2000 feet or below and

one can not see sun anywhere.

450 knots is 231 meters per second, that is pretty fast for visual observation

and especially taking account the altitude, e.g. 1500 feet.

Then the interesting part, the guy in the next door can fly his

little Cessna 172 with IFR plan over the clouds on the same day

the Viperjet owner is doomed to fly under the clouds.

Isn't that a bit odd? I don't know if exceptions can be done,

for example Burt Rutan's SpaceShipOne would have been registered as

an experimental aircraft in the case Burt Rutan would have lived here,

if he would have been limited to VFR rules, wouldn't that been pretty

interesting to do the whole trip to suborbital space in VFR? Of course

it can be speculated, that from suborbital altitude one can see ground

even if there would be continuous cloud coverage there and there.... ;/

Also it have been so that in ultralights (which are analoguous to

American VLA or Sports Plane category), the weight have been limited

to 450 kg and many ultralight aircrafts available here have the weight

so close the 450 kg limit that a ballistic recovery system can not be

installed. In Germany it was decided that the ballistic recovery system

in these aircrafts is mandatory. In Finland, on the contrary, installing a

ballistic recovery system have been indirectly forbidden (allthough I heard

that it may be possible to apply for exception, to go over the weight

limit because of ballistic recovery system) because they increase

the weight of the plane over the 450 kg limit (allthough in reality,

most of these aircrafts are structurally designed for 550 kg or 600 kg MTOW

instead, but the 450 kg limit is printed to their operating manual

to satisfy authorities). Sorry for going to kinda off-topic about this

regulatory bureaucratic country.

[Waiter]

Use caution on the fuel burn calculation. A Cherokeee 150 will burn about 8-10 at sea level turning 2300 rpm.

 

An EZ running the same engine will burn 10 - 14 at sea level turning 28-2900 RPM.

 

This was one of the factors that contributed to JDs demise.

 

Waiter

 

OH YAH, I built mine for all the reasons listed, It would be cheaper, I'd have it flying in 18 months, and I could take the wings off and keep it in my driveway.

[Nathan Gifford]

I visited a builder this last weekend and found that you really may not need that much space. You would still need workshop space larger than the table but some of these sub $1,000 carports can be adapted for Cozy assembly.

 

A couple of things that are recommended is that the assembly building be located near, but not attached to your house (dust). Air conditioning (heat/ac) will not absolutely essential (depending on local weather extremes) will definitely speed construction.

[Jon Matcho]

A couple of things that are recommended is that the assembly building be located near, but not attached to your house (dust).

My shop is my former 2-car garage (working on that 2nd car space...), and I know a handful of others setup like this. Unless you have a vacuum effect sucking all the "stuff" into your house, my thought is that this setup is preferred. The reason being is that a trip to/from the shop takes only seconds, with an easy clean-up by stopping off at the "mud room" between the garage and living area. Only complaint is that I can't fit my cars in there.

 

I suppose I could say the "ideal" setup would be to have a 4-car detached garage accessible via a covered walkway from my back porch.

[CBarber]

I just moved my project to a hangar last month and I miss having it in my two car garage. I could have done a lot more work on it before taking out to the airport, but I was made an offer I could not refuse ($350 per month hangar for $87.50 and I am only sharing it with one other plane...a VariEZ being restored). Both fit in the hangar with the wings on without problem.

 

The downside is it was GREAT to be able to just walk into the garage and play....uh, I mean work on the plane. I will look back on those days with fond memories.

[Cozy_builder]

Jigs and templates are by far the cheapest thing you will do on the aircraft - if they add up to $200 total, it's a lot.

 

Where I can get information about Jigs and templates? It didn't show on Spruce Aircraft Catalog?

[Jon Matcho]

Where I can get information about Jigs and templates? It didn't show on Spruce Aircraft Catalog?

Jig-building is called out in the plans, which involves cutting various pieces of cheap wood and other materials for forming some parts prior to glassing. "A couple hundred dollars" is probably a good estimate.