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N200LZ: Hotwater Heat - Rotary Style


TMann

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I'm trying to work out the logistics of my cabin heat. I plan on using the heated coolant for my source (just as you would in a car.)

I can channel the heat all the way from the hellhole to FS 0.0 due to the channels in the exterior wall of the fuselage when I rounded the sides. I actually have two questions for anyone who has implemented a water cooled engine:

 

1. Did you install a heater control valve to regulate the supply of hot coolant to the heater core from the cockpit? If so ...... do you have a part number.

 

2.Did you install a blower fan? I know most cars intake fresh air and pass that through the heater core. They use a blower motor because otherwise you would freeze your tookus off while you are stuck in traffic. Seeing as we are always moving, I'm thinking a small NACA scoop should do the job nicely ......... but then again, I've never built a cabin heater before.

T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18

Velocity/RG N951TM

Mann's Airplane Factory

We add rocket's to everything!

4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done

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I'm trying to work out the logistics of my cabin heat. I plan on using the heated coolant for my source (just as you would in a car.)

I can channel the heat all the way from the hellhole to FS 0.0 due to the channels in the exterior wall of the fuselage when I rounded the sides. I actually have two questions for anyone who has implemented a water cooled engine:

 

1. Did you install a heater control valve to regulate the supply of hot coolant to the heater core from the cockpit? If so ...... do you have a part number.

 

2.Did you install a blower fan? I know most cars intake fresh air and pass that through the heater core. They use a blower motor because otherwise you would freeze your tookus off while you are stuck in traffic. Seeing as we are always moving, I'm thinking a small NACA scoop should do the job nicely ......... but then again, I've never built a cabin heater before.

I would think there are many valves used in cars that you could use for heat control. you will need a fan for the same reason as a car there is no air flow during taxi. you will need to recycle the air through the heater, if you don't the heater core will need to be very large to heat a constant supply of very cold air. remember the air that comes in has to go somewhere. if the air can't get out it can't get in

Evolultion Eze RG -a two place side by side-200 Knots on 200 HP. A&P / pilot for over 30 years

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you will need to recycle the air through the heater, if you don't the heater core will need to be very large to heat a constant supply of very cold air.

The problem I see with that is the resulting increase in humidity and the associated problems (fogging, condensation & frost).

I would not think it would take much to heat a styrofoam box.

 

The spam cans don't have a blower ...... at least I've never been in one that does.

T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18

Velocity/RG N951TM

Mann's Airplane Factory

We add rocket's to everything!

4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done

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I am not a builder/owner but have thought about this some, so take the following with that understanding.

 

I would suggest looking at the oil/air heat exchanger installs for nose heat on Lycosaurus installations in other EZ's for help in sizing inlet/exhaust and the core itself (I think Waiter has a good description, maybe John Slade or Cozy Girrrlz too).

 

I would think that a blower would only be needed for ground ops, maybe use an adjustable NACA for fresh air source and have a firewall valve for temperature modulation or shutoff when you don't need heat, just like an older automotive installation. Key as always would be KISS.

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T.

 

One of the things that you will have to deal with is the understanding that to prevent corrosion in the heat exchanger, you must periodically get new anti-freeze (anticorrosion) water to it. Some car heater valves allow a constant small flow to occur even when in the "cold" position. this might be somewhat uncomfortable in a hot cabin for a low level flight, etc.

 

Since the water is going to be pressurized 13-18PSI you really don't have to worry about high pressure valves. If you select a valve that closes off completely, periodically open it when starting your engine to get fresh h2o to it.

 

I agree about the fan. In fact one must ask themselves if an extenal air source is necessary, or is it only necessary to use the air in the cabin. Additional air, if needed can be let in through the vents.

 

With regard to "spam can systems, we are talking about apples vs. sirloin steaks.

 

The spam heater is usually a muff heater which takes outside air and heats it against an exhaust pipe at perhaps 900 or 1000 degrees. Your liquid coolant will not be higher than 220 or 230. that is a big difference.

 

Even Twins use a gas-fired flame (contained) to heat a heat exchanger.

 

Never had a fogging problem with my heater in the D-fly (liquid recirculated air) but if you want, you can get some outside air, for make-up and mix it with inside air. Don't forget these planes are not hermetically sealed and leak air.

 

An additional factor in heating is that with the bubble-type canopy, the thermal load (on a sunny day) is significant and the heater does not need to be a stellar performer.

I Canardly contain myself!

Rich :D

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Tman,

On the inlet side of the circuit at the firewall put a ball valve or your regulator valve (and maybe a ball valve). Use just a ball valve with a push pull cable if you wish to regulate temp manually. On the outlet side at the firewall put a check valve.

This way if you have a break or leak in the cockpit nobody gets scalded and you will not steam up the canopy and be practicing IFR flight turning your canopy into one giant Foggle. You will be able to shut off the cockpit circuit completely.

The deltaT accross whatever you use for a core is not enough to heat incoming outside air much above sea level on a good day. So you will need to recirculate air to get heat. Your air supply may be suplemented by a fresh air vent. Marine supply store have a good inline blower. You may need to put a filter capacitor accross the motor leads at the motor to kill off elecrical noise.

Heat is controlled much the same as your car at that point.

If you want heated seats you can spiral a tube under your seat, just make sure it is controllable!

...Chrissi

CG Products

www.CozyGirrrl.com

Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B Turbo

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Velocity provided cabin heat via the front oil cooler that a Naca scoop feeds. A very simple flap valve directs the air after it passes though the cooler either to the cabin or dumps it out the bottom. You can vary heat via the cable connected to the IP.

 

Seems as if a similar set up can be done with coolant, but since 30% of my rotary cooling is from oil, and the factory had already set it up for an oil cooler, I am just using the plans system. I have considered the coolant route if this version does not prove adequate.

 

FWIW.

 

All the best,

 

Chris

Christopher Barber

Velocity SE/FG w/yoke. Zoom, zoom, zoom.

www.LoneStarVelocity.com

 

Live with Passion...

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Dear Chris,

Just make sure you do not use the Velocity cooler. The oil pressure in a rotary runs up to twice what other engines do, people have tried other coolers and they have burst.

Regards, Chrissi

CG Products

www.CozyGirrrl.com

Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B Turbo

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The problem I see with that is the resulting increase in humidity and the associated problems (fogging, condensation & frost).

I would not think it would take much to heat a styrofoam box.

TMann,

 

You won't be adding moisture to the cockpit (unless you spring a coolant leak :eek: ), so you won't be increasing the humidity in the cockpit. Since the absolute moisture content of the air inside and outside of the cockpit should be the same (except for respiration or other sources of moisture), your relative humidity inside the cockpit will be lower with the elevated temperature from your heater.

 

It doesn't take much to heat the styrofoam box if you (mostly) seal the leaks.

 

Dave

Dave Adams

Long EZ N83DT

Race 83

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TMann,

 

You won't be adding moisture to the cockpit (unless you spring a coolant leak :eek: ), so you won't be increasing the humidity in the cockpit.

:rolleyes: Obviously you never took a date to the drive-in theater during a cold Nebraska night.:D

 

Respiration does add a lot of moisture to the air. When you run the widshield defroster in a car, the airconditioner actually runs at the same time to reduce the humidity in the heated air.

I'm thinking that a system that utilizes both fresh air and recirculated air might be the best choice. During the summer when the heat is off it can work as additional ventilation.

T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18

Velocity/RG N951TM

Mann's Airplane Factory

We add rocket's to everything!

4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done

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Chrssi,

 

Since you mentioned this during your all too short visit to the Big Onion...uh, Houston, I addressed it with both my engineering friends (2) and Velocity, Inc. However, I have yet to get the model number and do the more proper research. I do have another Mazda oil cooler that is "about" the same size as the very expensive aviation one that Veocity provided. I think it was orignally for a 3rd gen

 

BTW, are y'all coming to the Texas Rotary Roundup north of Austin on May 29, 30 and 31? If not, WHY THE HELL NOT? :)

 

All the best,

 

Chris

Christopher Barber

Velocity SE/FG w/yoke. Zoom, zoom, zoom.

www.LoneStarVelocity.com

 

Live with Passion...

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Chrssi,

 

Since you mentioned this during your all too short visit to the Big Onion...uh, Houston, I addressed it with both my engineering friends (2) and Velocity, Inc. However, I have yet to get the model number and do the more proper research. I do have another Mazda oil cooler that is "about" the same size as the very expensive aviation one that Veocity provided. I think it was orignally for a 3rd gen

 

BTW, are y'all coming to the Texas Rotary Roundup north of Austin on May 29, 30 and 31? If not, WHY THE HELL NOT? :)

 

All the best,

 

Chris

Chris, the history goes that people have blown out aftermarket oil coolers because they are not rated for this pressure, something like 100+PSI at times. I think part of this is due to the need to spray it out in a large volume to the inside of the rotors for the cooling. Hey, the upside is you can sell the very expensive aviation cooler provided by Velocity :D

Nope, it is my destiny to never get near Austin, I lived in Houston for 6 years and never managed to go there so we are surely not going to drive from our state of Misery all the way to AustenTacious...

 

...Chrissi

CG Products

www.CozyGirrrl.com

Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B Turbo

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> Respiration does add a lot of moisture to the air. When you run the widshield

> defroster in a car, the airconditioner actually runs at the same time to reduce

> the humidity in the heated air.

 

Cold air is "dry", it doesn't contain a whole lot of water to begin with. The colder it is, the less water it contains. When it heats up the relative humidity drops even more. If fresh air is getting into the cabin through the heater then some very dry air is coming your way. Every commercial aircraft passenger knows this, the air in airliners is always very dry for the same reasons even though there are a lot of sweating and breathing human beings with you in the same confined space.

You cannot compare this to a car where recirculation is used during cold and damp weather.

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You cannot compare this to a car where recirculation is used during cold and damp weather.

The relative humidity is the factor that counts. The canopy is going to be the temp of the outside air. Each breath you take inside an enclosed area without air exchange increases the relative humidity.

 

You have to start your flight at ground level so yes the conditions I described would be identical during your takeoff roll.

 

I sat in the back of a Vari-EZE during a winter flight and the pilot opened the front vent just prior to his takeoff roll to prevent the canopy from fogging over. Once we were airborne it did not seem to be a big issue.

 

Myself ....... I plan on building on that experience and if the fresh air source is not required, I'll close it off. I do not want to find myself getting ready to rotate and realize I'm IFR on a VFR day.

T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18

Velocity/RG N951TM

Mann's Airplane Factory

We add rocket's to everything!

4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done

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...Did you install a blower fan? ...

TMann, here's a link

 

http://www.pulsarxp.de/technik.htm#klimatisierung

 

describing the configuration you are considering installed in a German built Pulsar XP. (It's in German, but you may get a reasonable automatic translation).

These builders have used a Naca Duct, a heat exchange core salvaged from an Opel Corse (compareable to a Geo Metro), 4 computer fans, a model servo operated valve and electronics to control fans and valve. You may want to contact them via contact link for further information.

 

Pezzi

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Chrissi:

 

Your BallValve & CheckValve on the Firewall scheme is going into my build notebook. It's a great solution that solves a very nasty failure mode scenario.

 

(And of course the Germans went one further, putting a servo on the ball valve to fully automate cockpit temperature control !)

 

John

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(And of course the Germans went one further, putting a servo on the ball valve to fully automate cockpit temperature control !)

 

 

I think the earlier auto types had a similar system. Now most everything is driven by vacuum vs. electric. I found a heater valve that appears to have a cable attach point. I suppose a servo could be used with that but I think it would be like reinventing the wheel (i.e. it already exists if you know what to look for.)

T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18

Velocity/RG N951TM

Mann's Airplane Factory

We add rocket's to everything!

4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done

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Maybe off-topic, and I have never heard of these being used on planes, but I wanted to point out the availability of gasoline-fuelled automobile heaters. They can be installed in pretty much every car and are used to heat up the car interior and engine before driving. They are usually installed in the engine compartment, heat up and circulate the coolant and switch on the ventilation so your car and engine will be warm, comfy and ice-free during winter before operation. They aren't very heavy and large and fuel consumption isn't very high either. Installing one of those might actually be an alternative to complicated and error-prone engine coolant heating. They are manufactured in huge numbers and are proven in automobiles, mobile homes, busses and boats.

 

http://www.parkingheater.com/

http://www.parkingheater.com/products/small-car.html

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Maybe off-topic, and I have never heard of these being used on planes, but I wanted to point out the availability of gasoline-fuelled automobile heaters. They can be installed in pretty much every car and are used to heat up the car interior and engine before driving. They are usually installed in the engine compartment, heat up and circulate the coolant and switch on the ventilation so your car and engine will be warm, comfy and ice-free during winter before operation. They aren't very heavy and large and fuel consumption isn't very high either. Installing one of those might actually be an alternative to complicated and error-prone engine coolant heating. They are manufactured in huge numbers and are proven in automobiles, mobile homes, busses and boats.

 

http://www.parkingheater.com/

http://www.parkingheater.com/products/small-car.html

That is what is basically used in all twins. A good system, however, in a car leakage caused CO poisioning if spotted in time is easily taken care of by opening a window. In an aircraft, not so easy. These combustion heaters in aircraft must be constantly inspected and are subject to AD notes. I would tread very carefully if you decide to use this and get a good CO monitor. The fireproofness in an aircraft is also something I would be concerned about.

I Canardly contain myself!

Rich :D

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That is what is basically used in all twins. A good system, however, in a car leakage caused CO poisioning if spotted in time is easily taken care of by opening a window. In an aircraft, not so easy. These combustion heaters in aircraft must be constantly inspected and are subject to AD notes. I would tread very carefully if you decide to use this and get a good CO monitor. The fireproofness in an aircraft is also something I would be concerned about.

those are not the same as the ones used in twin aircraft. the aircraft ones use a blower and a gas flame to heat a heat exchange the same as a home forced air heater. the parking heater is a gas flame to water heat exchanger and it heats the water in the engine cooling system. a leak in the heat exchanger never enters the car cockpit and a leak in the cars heater core would just get thing a bit wet. you don't see them in aircraft because there are not many water cool aircraft engines

Evolultion Eze RG -a two place side by side-200 Knots on 200 HP. A&P / pilot for over 30 years

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those are not the same as the ones used in twin aircraft. the aircraft ones use a blower and a gas flame to heat a heat exchange the same as a home forced air heater. the parking heater is a gas flame to water heat exchanger and it heats the water in the engine cooling system. a leak in the heat exchanger never enters the car cockpit and a leak in the cars heater core would just get thing a bit wet. you don't see them in aircraft because there are not many water cool aircraft engines

Ah, that makes sense. I was thinking of the old VW bus heaters.:sad:

I Canardly contain myself!

Rich :D

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I was thinking of the old VW bus heaters.:sad:

That's what came to mind for me as well.

 

......... sitting along the side of the road warming my hands by the heat of a burning VW van.

 

Many Micro-Busses met their demise as a result of those gas heaters.

T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18

Velocity/RG N951TM

Mann's Airplane Factory

We add rocket's to everything!

4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done

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The heating unit doesn't have to be located inside the cabin. Its exhaust of course goes overboard, so I don't really see how CO poisoning is an issue. These units are installed in literally hundreds of thousands of cars worldwide, and you don't hear about cars going up in flames because of them.

They could be used in planes without liquid cooling too.

 

Interestingly these units are offered by the manufacturers of many European cars but that option is not available for cars exported to the US (one example being VW, from small beetles to the biggest one, the Phaeton), due to US product liability laws. Someone might use these units in a hermetically closed garage and manage to poison themselves...

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We used those as heating units on yachts, either as a forced hot air unit or circulating hot water going to registers with heaters just like a car. I always preferred the hot water type since you could run it through a 2 gallon RV hot water heater and let the marina (no charge for electricity) pay for your heat. They were noisy little buggers and the greasel ones were a bit stinky, you could usually see one start up from the initial puff of smoke. Most of the small ones had a dribble mat rather than a proper injecter and they'd eventually get all coked up with carbon gunk. I might still have one somewhere in storage.

Why add yet another element of complexity and weight to you airship when you already have an adequate source of heat? Not to mention IT LIGHTS ITSELF ON FIRE!!! :yikes:

...Chrissi

CG Products

www.CozyGirrrl.com

Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B Turbo

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