2 Seat Luxury Flight Yacht

[Arbiter]

Hi Folks,

After some discussion in the modifications forum about front seat weight issues, and the potential issues of expanding the Cozy Mk IV to fit myself and my friends in the front seat, I think I have settled on modifying the Cozy back into a 2-3 seater. I do not want a traditional Tandem and would welcome the expansive space gained by pilot/copilot if it were just 2 ppl in the Cozy. This presents some interesting potential challenges but none of them seem insurmountable.

 

1. If I went to a 2 place Cozy I would want to have a right side stick on both seats, any thoughts on how to accomplish this? Anyone have any schematics from other Tandem designs with the same issue? The same thing goes for the LH throttle quadrant.

 

2. I would like to modify the rear seat to be functionally useful as a pilot/copilot seat. This means to me that it would need to have good forward visibility. My thoughts were to extend the canopy 2-3 inches towards the back and modify the copilot seat to rise up a bit (Think Apache). I know I can do custom canopies with people, but are there significant issues that people know of regarding what I am speaking of?

 

3. Because I would essentially be doing a 4 place aircraft with 2 places I would have some significant room to play with, any idea what kinds of fun things (Yes, Bells and Whistles) I should think to install? With full fuel and 2 heavy people I would still have about 90 lbs of extra stuff I could put in the aircraft.... Any thoughts?

 

4. Long flights would be possible, and likely. From a comfort standpoint, has anyone outfitted their Cozy with a long range lavatory system (Like the space shuttle toilet?) I know it's a bit gross, but long flights would not be possible by "holding it" and I was thinking I might have some interesting ideas come out of the forum with this one... Any thoughts? Mine right now would be a "tube and tank" arrangement....

 

Thanks in advance for your thoughtful comments!

 

-Chris Z.

[foamwhisperer]

Something Like this?

[Arbiter]

Something Like this?

Can't see the picture, it has the Red X of death in it... I am sure it is Luxurious though

 

-Chris Z.

[Phil Kriley]

Wow - you really are a glutten for punishment. The mods you are talking about are not trivial. Don't forget instruments and rudder/brake pedals for your back-seater.

 

Please do not call your creation a Cozy.

[Edge 513]

Well the first visual is you can't eliminate the central structural heat duct/lower spine on the cozy, so that will be sticking up your a$$'s...after that small inconvenience, wail away at it!!

Maybe you two could start wearing industrial sized thongs to see of you can get used to the sensation..who knows, you may start a trend...=]

[TMann]

Start with a Long-EZ and widen it.

There is already a stick in back.

You can add a throttle if you want.

 

You don't need a second set of rudder pedals for in-flight control (vs. taxi, landing operations.)

 

It comes a lot closer to meeting your requirements than the Cozy would from what you've said here.

[Arbiter]

Wow - you really are a glutten for punishment. The mods you are talking about are not trivial. Don't forget instruments and rudder/brake pedals for your back-seater.

 

Please do not call your creation a Cozy.

 

Phil,

I agree that the mods to be made require careful thought, but essentially it would be a larger Long EZ, and making the mods in a similar manner for the flight controls to the Long EZ style is what I plan to do. The rudder pedals for the rear seat are going to be challenging, but getting over the heat duct issue isn't (This is for edge 513). I've already said I will be raising the rear seat a bit. People make bench seats out of the front often on the Cozy and get through the issue, so I am not worried about that seat at all. To me, it's mainly a question of the controls because they will be slightly more in-board than the originals (Due to sitting centered). I do not believe that re-routing them will be overly complicated, but it will be challenging to do it in a thoughtful manner without adding much weight to the airframe or complexity. I think I'll get ahold of some Long EZ plans and see how they handle the tandem controls and go from there. Any suggestions on what to do about the rudder pedals in the back? I think there isn't as much room to slew the controls in the back, so maybe the front seat needs to be higher up (Gotta watch the leg room for front seat though through the IP) or something, anyone with bright ideas?

 

As far as the naming goes, it's still a Cozy Mk IV airframe with a modified cockpit... I realize people don't want the name tarnished because of an accident in a plane someone modified, but it's still a Cozy airframe. If it were to crash, that's what people would call it... People put small mods in all the time, does that make the aircraft not a Cozy? If I mod my plans, and I rename it can I call it my own design? If it's nice and performs well, should I make my own plans and sell a 2 seat plan based off the Cozy? I think I should be able to if I designed the mod myself and had to rename the plane type because of it based on what you are saying (We won't discuss the legal aspect of this)... I do not believe that I should do that though, because it's Nat's over-all design (Airframe and all the other really important stuff critical to flight and performance), but at what point do the mods become a new design entirely? This is more philosophical than I want to get into here, but the point is I am not changing the name of the model of aircraft I am going to build, too much of it would still be the same. Nat designed a great aircraft, and I think given my requirements, it could be made better, and there's no good reason that modifications can't be done and done safely if you take the time to think them through.

 

These are all good points to consider, and I am especially interested in hearing how the Long EZ controls are laid out tandem and what might be done about the rudder pedals in the rear seat for the Cozy. Thanks guys, keep em coming!

 

-Chris Z.

[Lynn Erickson]

Phil,

I agree that the mods to be made require careful thought, but essentially it would be a larger Long EZ, and making the mods in a similar manner for the flight controls to the Long EZ style is what I plan to do. The rudder pedals for the rear seat are going to be challenging, but getting over the heat duct issue isn't (This is for edge 513). I've already said I will be raising the rear seat a bit. People make bench seats out of the front often on the Cozy and get through the issue, so I am not worried about that seat at all. To me, it's mainly a question of the controls because they will be slightly more in-board than the originals (Due to sitting centered). I do not believe that re-routing them will be overly complicated, but it will be challenging to do it in a thoughtful manner without adding much weight to the airframe or complexity. I think I'll get ahold of some Long EZ plans and see how they handle the tandem controls and go from there. Any suggestions on what to do about the rudder pedals in the back? I think there isn't as much room to slew the controls in the back, so maybe the front seat needs to be higher up (Gotta watch the leg room for front seat though through the IP) or something, anyone with bright ideas?

 

 

 

These are all good points to consider, and I am especially interested in hearing how the Long EZ controls are laid out tandem and what might be done about the rudder pedals in the rear seat for the Cozy. Thanks guys, keep em coming!

 

-Chris Z.

About it being Nat's design. I think it is more accurately Nat"s Redesign of Burt Rutans design. as for rudder pedals in the back forget it. you can't see well enough to use them during a landing and they are just not used very often in flight even by the pilot. most builder/ pilots will let the copilot take the controls of their pride and joy while in straight and level flight. but land the thing from the back seat, forget it.

[Arbiter]

About it being Nat's design. I think it is more accurately Nat"s Redesign of Burt Rutans design. as for rudder pedals in the back forget it. you can't see well enough to use them during a landing and they are just not used very often in flight even by the pilot. most builder/ pilots will let the copilot take the controls of their pride and joy while in straight and level flight. but land the thing from the back seat, forget it.

Hey Lynn,

Thanks for the advice on the rudder pedals, that will make it much easier I think to modify, I'd still like to try and get creative... MY main concern with not having rudder pedals would be emergency controls. If something were to happen to the pilot, I would at least like to give the person in the back a fighting chance of getting the aircraft on the ground. You are right about Nat re-designing the Long EZ to the Cozy. The point I was simply making was Nat did mor re-design than I would be doing before he called it a new aircraft, and his purpose was to sell the plans : ). Another thought I had was going too a design of the Cozy where the pilot and copilot were still side by side, but the cabin was wider, and you forgoe the rear seats and make it a nice bagage area and move the pilot and copilot back in the aicraft maybe 10-12" or so. This to me seems like a lot more work and uncertainty than modifying the Cozy to a Tandem, but it could be done. That thought put me into thinking about an SQ2000 I think, but I don't believe they sell plans anymore.... If they do, where can I get them, because I'd like to still have side by side if possible, but as has been discussed it would be hard to fly or even dangerous with more then 440 lbs in the front seat in this config... Anywho, Keep the thoughtful discussion going! If not rudder pedals, what would be an alternative in an emergency situation?

 

-Chris Z.

[TMann]

If you start with the Long-EZ, the controls can be purchased pre-fabricated from the Cozy Girrrls.

[Big Steve]

Due to the fact that a plans built Longeze has no rudder pedals, no throttle control or no way to lower the nose gear from the back. The back seater is forced to bend over kiss it good buy and hope for better day. If the Pilot in the front seat is incapacitated. I do suppose you could fly around the airport until you run out of gas dead stick the landing the plane will stop pretty fast with the nose gear up. STeve build on

[Lynn Erickson]

Hey Lynn,

Thanks for the advice on the rudder pedals, that will make it much easier I think to modify, I'd still like to try and get creative... MY main concern with not having rudder pedals would be emergency controls. If something were to happen to the pilot, I would at least like to give the person in the back a fighting chance of getting the aircraft on the ground. You are right about Nat re-designing the Long EZ to the Cozy. The point I was simply making was Nat did mor re-design than I would be doing before he called it a new aircraft, and his purpose was to sell the plans : ). Another thought I had was going too a design of the Cozy where the pilot and copilot were still side by side, but the cabin was wider, and you forgoe the rear seats and make it a nice bagage area and move the pilot and copilot back in the aicraft maybe 10-12" or so. This to me seems like a lot more work and uncertainty than modifying the Cozy to a Tandem, but it could be done. That thought put me into thinking about an SQ2000 I think, but I don't believe they sell plans anymore.... If they do, where can I get them, because I'd like to still have side by side if possible, but as has been discussed it would be hard to fly or even dangerous with more then 440 lbs in the front seat in this config... Anywho, Keep the thoughtful discussion going! If not rudder pedals, what would be an alternative in an emergency situation?

 

-Chris Z.

moving the seat and panel back is a lot easier then you think. Think about taking the long ez or cozy IV plans and scaling them up 10%. there is a plane at chino that is a long ez that is scaled up 25%. it has a small side by side seating cockpit and a huge back seat area almost 6' long. the plane is in flight test phase one now and we are finding some very interesting flight characteristics. with a light wing loading it takes off and lands a lot slower but has not been tested over 150 kts at this time.

 

the SQ2000 was a kit with molded fuselage so there are no plans to build it from scratch.

[TMann]

Due to the fact that a plans built Longeze has no rudder pedals, no throttle control or no way to lower the nose gear from the back. The back seater is forced to bend over kiss it good buy and hope for better day. If the Pilot in the front seat is incapacitated. I do suppose you could fly around the airport until you run out of gas dead stick the landing the plane will stop pretty fast with the nose gear up. STeve build on

I think the greater danger lies in having a full set of controls accessable to what will most likely be a non-pilot. The Long-ez design was very well thought out. I'm not so sure that even a rear stick is such a good Idea.

 

I think you need to measure the greater risk. I can't say that I am aware of any NTSB reports of a situation such as described but I have seen a ton of other causes that I would choose to address first.

[Arbiter]

moving the seat and panel back is a lot easier then you think. Think about taking the long ez or cozy IV plans and scaling them up 10%. there is a plane at chino that is a long ez that is scaled up 25%. it has a small side by side seating cockpit and a huge back seat area almost 6' long. the plane is in flight test phase one now and we are finding some very interesting flight characteristics. with a light wing loading it takes off and lands a lot slower but has not been tested over 150 kts at this time.

 

the SQ2000 was a kit with molded fuselage so there are no plans to build it from scratch.

Hey Lynn,

Thanks for the advice and the encouragement to try something different with the plans : ). I am thinking about re-creating the details in CAD so that I can manipulate them and have everything fit together well along the way. My main concern when doing a modification will be to make the aircraft flyable and landable by the second passenger. I have some ideas, but it sounds like the rudder is out for the person in the back. I think I could give them better visibility by raising their seat and modifying the turtledeck to take a higher canopy. This would allow better seating visibility from the back out the front of the aircraft permitting the people in the back to operate the aircraft visually. We'll see what happens I guess, right now I gotta focus on saving to get some plans and such, should be exciting to see how it turns out! I would be interested to hear some more about this scaled up Cozy and its performance...

 

-Chris Z.

[Jason Heath]

I think the greater danger lies in having a full set of controls accessable to what will most likely be a non-pilot.

Huh??........... Ever been in an plane TMann????

[TMann]

Huh??........... Ever been in an plane TMann????

Uhhh ......... yeah. I got 1.4 hours in today. Actually was finishing up around noon today and was overflown by a B2 from the Offutt air show.

I should be getting in between 3 and 4 hours tomorrow and another 3 hours over the course of the week. I got another three hours in earlier in the week.

 

So did you have a specific question I could help you with?

 

On the subject of the post ,,,,,,,,,,

If you want to pursue the double controls, check out the stick grips at www.infinityaerospace.com,

Currently he has a control stick grip that sports all of the switches you need to control trim, landing brake, gear deployment etc. Get two and all of that functionality is duplicated in back.

 

The new throttle grip which is just starting production is the same way and can be duplicated in back, Throw in a glass attitude display with an additional screen in back and you have a nice platform to checkout in.

 

The only thing lacking would be the rudder padals but as Lynn says, not worth the effort.

 

Gotta get back to work on my spar for now.

[Lynn Erickson]

Hey Lynn,

Thanks for the advice and the encouragement to try something different with the plans : ). I am thinking about re-creating the details in CAD so that I can manipulate them and have everything fit together well along the way. My main concern when doing a modification will be to make the aircraft flyable and landable by the second passenger. I have some ideas, but it sounds like the rudder is out for the person in the back. I think I could give them better visibility by raising their seat and modifying the turtledeck to take a higher canopy. This would allow better seating visibility from the back out the front of the aircraft permitting the people in the back to operate the aircraft visually. We'll see what happens I guess, right now I gotta focus on saving to get some plans and such, should be exciting to see how it turns out! I would be interested to hear some more about this scaled up Cozy and its performance...

 

-Chris Z.

raising the rear seat would help some but it is the strakes the get in the way also. we tried to land a long ez from the rear seat and it was very tough even for my old hanger mate who had some 900 hrs. in a long ez and was a stunt pilot. he did manage to do it but said he was not going to do that ever again. he landed into a 8 kts. head wind and once on the ground the pilot up front used the brakes to stop. in the right conditions the rudders are not needed to land. I have made many landings and never had to touch the rudders, only the brakes to stop. what many would be canard pilot don't understand is that the rudders in a canard make the plane react a bit different then the spam cans. while in level cruse flight step on a aileron and the plane will bank, use a rudder and the plane banks. almost the same. to get the rudders to yaw the plane requires rudder and opposite aileron.

[Arbiter]

raising the rear seat would help some but it is the strakes the get in the way also. we tried to land a long ez from the rear seat and it was very tough even for my old hanger mate who had some 900 hrs. in a long ez and was a stunt pilot. he did manage to do it but said he was not going to do that ever again. he landed into a 8 kts. head wind and once on the ground the pilot up front used the brakes to stop. in the right conditions the rudders are not needed to land. I have made many landings and never had to touch the rudders, only the brakes to stop. what many would be canard pilot don't understand is that the rudders in a canard make the plane react a bit different then the spam cans. while in level cruse flight step on a aileron and the plane will bank, use a rudder and the plane banks. almost the same. to get the rudders to yaw the plane requires rudder and opposite aileron.

 

Lynn,

Thank you for letting me know! It sounds like it's not worth the effort to do the mod to put rudder pedals (Nevermind how cramped it is back there already) in the back since they make the craft behave as if they were airlerons. It's also good to know they have that quality, I did not know that and will be useful for my transition flights . Was the copilot in the Long EZ able to see forward? I intend to try and raise the copilot so they have a rather un-obstructed view forward.... Comments are welcome, this is all great points and advice!

 

BTW the "toilet" is awesome!

 

-Chris Z.