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Not really a noob to planes, but...


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I am preparing for my first adventure building a canard, and flying somewhere other than the right/GIB seat.

 

In 1988 I took my first trip to OSH for the show, and was blown away by the smooth lines and compound curves of the composites there. Up until that point, I'd only ever seen and flown in the tin cans my dad rented. At the tender age of 9 I was hooked forever. :D

 

Cars, boats, and college all got in the way over the years, but I never quit going to OSH when I could afford it ('88-'95, '99, and I'll be back on '06), and I never quit looking at canards.

 

Now, with the acquisition of a house with a building space 2 car garage and stable, gainful employment, I'm seriously considering building the Long-EZ (that I've lusted over since I was too short to see over the panel), partly for the flight performance, and partly because I'm a wiry 6'4", and I need all the legroom I can get. It seems that a Long EZ (with maybe a little stretch)is the place for me.

 

I don't expect to finish quickly, as I don't even have plans and templates yet, and I won't be able to give the project the 15-30 hours a week it would need to be completed 'quickly'. I'm also not planning a precisely stock EZ. Mine will probably end up as a SuperEZ or somesuch nonsense, but with things like the Infinity retracts, a mildly stretched nose (4-6", mainly to round it off a little more and give me room for my feet and some antennae), and a non-Lyc/Cont engine, it won't be too terribly uncommon either.

 

The eventual goal is a craft I can fly around in on the weekends, with semi-regular trips to the coasts from my central (Chicagoland) location. I'm not going to get into the retract vs fixed debate here (there are enough threads already), but I'm more than satisfied that it'll be good for economy on long trips.

 

Me? I'm an electrical engineer with a passion for things that go fast, high, or both. I approach things with precision and attention to detail, the result of both my upbringing and my profession. I tend to do things right, rather than fast. I plan on building a plane that I will fly for a very long time, or until I build another one, which ever comes first.

 

I'm just starting my ground school home study course. After flying right seat for 15 years, it looks like I'll be a quick study. The next step will probably be my Private (nothing light or slow enough to rent at KO6C if I get a Sport cert), but not this winter.

 

Assuming I can get plans, this is going to be a fun ride. It's great to have a forum like this as a jumping off point, along with CSA, ez.org, and the CP compendium.

 

-dave

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Dave, welcome and best wishes to you on your journey. You certainly have a good plan going.

 

I'm in close to the same boat as you. Ground school completed, but have chosen not to pursue my Private until I have my airframe near-ready. I see instruction and keeping current as distractions to building, not in the same class as TV, but same as other things that keep you out of the shop. That's just my game plan.

 

Check this thread for some ideas on where/how to locate Long-EZ plans.

 

Keep us posted!

Jon Matcho :busy:
Builder & Canard Zone Admin
Now:  Rebuilding Quickie Tri-Q200 N479E
Next:  Resume building a Cozy Mark IV

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Jon-

 

Thanks for the support. I've actually been on the hunt for my plans for the better part of 6 months now. I lurk regularly on Barnstormers and eBay, and I've got hooks into a few locals who are closer to the builder community than I am right now. Finding the template set I fear will be much harder than the plans, which seem to be in the $300-$400 range for section 1 alone. I've decided to order the Terf CDs (also about $300) instead of waiting much longer for a complete plans set, and just focusing on the template acquisition (measured copies?). I've got access to printers to make the book myself if I need it, and I can do the microscaling required to match the printouts the same as the originals.

 

I've been slowly building my knowledge of airframes and composite structures since I was about 10 and built my first model boat. I'm not afraid of the nose stretch or the RG. I'm frankly amazed at how durable these little planes are, in spite of my experiences. Burt did an amazing job when he designed the bird. Composite is amazing stuff. There are also enough EZs flying that I'm confident that someone, somewhere, has encountered any problem I might have. It's fitting I'm planning to build an aircraft whose plans are only 5 months younger than myself. 25+ years of builders will be a grand support group I think.

 

Best of luck to us both :cool:

 

-dave

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:) If you are after Long-Eze plans, suggest you get in contact with Canard finder. Just do a search for canard finder on the net and it will come up with a possible e-mail address and name. I am being a little vague as I don't want to post personal name and email address of the person in question.

 

I myself was in the same situation as yourself. Always keen on the Long-eze, but I have basically decided to go for the Cozy IV as I like the idea of side by side seating (keep wife happier and get her involved in navigation) I don't like the idea of trying to handle all the maps and other stuff us flying types seem to accumulate in the cockpit of the aircraft on my own. I like the idea of having the extra space for carrying stuff in general and having two side sticks means pilot in control flys with left hand and has right hand free to write with (good for me being right handed).

 

Best of luck with your search.

 

P.S If you build using Photocopies of the plans/templates it violates the licencing agreement. Also when it comes to issurance you may find you require a licence/plans number.(I could be wrong)

Be careful there are a few people selling photocopies of plans and claiming them as originals. I got burnt on that one. Bought a set of plans that were claimed to be original but turned out to be copies. For my own safety, others and out of respect of the designer the plans are only held as reference material only. Never to be built from.

 

Jamie

"An upsidedown Australian that wants to build an aircraft that flys backwards"

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If you build using Photocopies of the plans/templates it violates the licencing agreement.

Actually, it doesn't. If someone SIGNED the licensing agreement, or made copies themselves for distribution, or built a second plane, then THEY violated the license agreement. If I happen upon used Long-EZ plans or copies on the street, and build a plane, then I am NOT in violation of anything.

 

Also when it comes to issurance you may find you require a licence/plans number.(I could be wrong)

Not here in the U.S. -- just need your build logs and evidence that you built the majority if you want the repairman's certificate.

 

For my own safety, others and out of respect of the designer the plans are only held as reference material only. Never to be built from.

It's going to be interesting to see what happens when RAF fully dissolves. They've already started moving their gift items to http://www.mojaveairandspace.com and I've been told they're past due to shut down. At that point, who's going to care if you build a "Custom-EZ" -- just don't call it a Long-EZ. Ask around and you'll find some EZs flying that were built from used or copied plans.

Jon Matcho :busy:
Builder & Canard Zone Admin
Now:  Rebuilding Quickie Tri-Q200 N479E
Next:  Resume building a Cozy Mark IV

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Jamie and Jon-

 

RAF actually had a very nice clarification of the licensing issues in CP issue 46.

The nice folks at ez.org posted it here: http://ez.org/cp46-p9.htm

 

Basically, as long as you buy a set that was bought from the factory by someone else, RAF is completely out of the loop. Legally speaking (IANAL, but I work with one who glances over my shoulder from time to time), anything not acquired from RAF is unsupported by them and more or less fair game. The responsibility falls on the seller, the 2nd party, not RAF.

 

That said, I'm fully comfortable building from plans as old as I am, and only receiving support from the existing flying community. As long as my build logs are in order and I can demonstrate quality, proficiency and expertise, I'm OK under FAR 21 and 45.

 

Jamie, I've been in contact with David about plans before. His new email address was posted by in one of the other EZ plans threads. The compendium from Terf was just a better deal for the most part (plans, updates, CPs, and the Composite book for the cost of Section I). I'm still working on templates tho.

 

As far as my choice of the Long, it's partly due to the fact I'll be flying the plane solo mostly, partly because it can be built very inexpensively (until you get to the glass cockpit I want) and partly because I'm so devoutly right handed, I'm not sure I could deal with the reversed control positions in a Cozy compared to...everything else. The incredibly long history and breadth of modifications and enhancements made by builders to the airframe (Cozy, Berkut, E-Racer, et al included) give me a lot of confidence in the original design, both in my ability to build it in a safe, flyable manner, and my ability to tweak it to be uniquiely suited for me. The panel space isn't a huge issue with the lower cost EFIS systems coming out (Blue Mountain's EFIS/Sport comes to mind) and 2 1/2" steam gauges for backup. Being a skinny dude, the width is also less of a concern to me than the length. Most of my 6'4"-ness is leg. I don't fit in much comfortably, and if I want to do long trips, comfort will be a requirement. :D Actual cockpit space isn't too bad either. Luggage can go in the back seat, and I tend to accumulate travel detritus less than the average bear. I prefer things efficient to bulky, lithe to muscular, etc. The Long, with it's light weight, tandem seating, and long history just seems to fit my personality better.

 

As for the legality of calling it a Long, I'm quite positive that it won't be called a Long-EZ on the registration. Super-EZ RG comes to mind, or maybe a DP-EZ. We'll see, as that's still a number of years off.

 

-dave

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Dave, thanks for the excellent reference and points. Note the essence of what the RAF is saying -- they are NOT LIABLE. They're not saying that you CAN/SHALL NOT give used plans or copies to others -- just what the consequences are.

 

What was the RAF "licensing" anyway? The license was for support, so naturally they tied their support to each set of plans sold.

 

Based on United States Copyright Law, I offer that we are in no violation whatsoever when copying Long-EZ plans for purposes of creating an amateur-built aircraft for educational purposes -- the essence of experimental aircraft at large. The violation is only with any seller/provider of these plans that makes a profit by charging more than the expenses required to produce the copies -- that is illegal.

 

§ 107 · Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

 

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include—

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a

commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; ...

My point is that it is entirely legal for a 3rd party (someone who has not signed the agreement with RAF) to copy Long-EZ plans and build a plane from those plans (and this may even be unecessarily conservative). In fact, the RAF implies as much in that Canard Pusher article referenced. As long as nobody is PROFITING from selling Long-EZ plans, RAF/Burt can and should not have a problem. As a courtesy to support RAF's decision to step away from this community of ours, just don't call your plane a Long-EZ.

 

You will find your templates, eventually.

Jon Matcho :busy:
Builder & Canard Zone Admin
Now:  Rebuilding Quickie Tri-Q200 N479E
Next:  Resume building a Cozy Mark IV

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Jon-

 

Yup, that's pretty much what I was getting at. There's also the vague and sticky issue of abandoned copyrighted works, unavailable from the original sources (for 20 years now!) yet still of great value to the public. I'm going to specifically discourage any further discussion of it, but I wholly agree with your remarks, especially since the plane I want to build will be for research, not only into my building and flying skills, but into small but meaningful improvements to a proven design to make it more ammenable for long distance flights.

 

I completely understand RAF's wish that we (the modifiers and unlicensed plans builders) seperate ourselves from them, and I'll do so happily. The liability for changes are on the builder alone. No questions asked. As for profit...I'm not sure anyone actually makes money on EZ airframes if you include time invested.

 

As for my templates, I was put on a waiting list for a set to copy last month, but it'll be many more months at the minimum. I'm apparently #11. We'll see if I can't locate real ones before then.

 

-dave

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Jamie and Jon-

 

 

As for the legality of calling it a Long, I'm quite positive that it won't be called a Long-EZ on the registration. Super-EZ RG comes to mind, or maybe a DP-EZ. We'll see, as that's still a number of years off.

 

-dave

When you register your craft, you will not use the name Long-eZY but will put your name or some other moniker in front of it. Such as Dave-LongEZ.

 

What you call it is immaterial. Who was Mr Cirrus or Lancair, or for that matter Mr EZ.

I Canardly contain myself!

Rich :D

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I hear you Rich. I'm trying to think of something cooler and more creative than Super-EZ RG, but it seems like a lot of the good names are already taken :irked:

 

I'm not worried though. Getting to that point is enough years away that this is nothing more than conjecture. I still haven't got a good lead on templates :D

 

-dave

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As a total noob, and a ways off from taking up this new-expensive-life-overtaking hobby, I have been pondering some of the same issues:

 

Specifically, if it takes me a significant amount of time to get to a financial situation where I can start all of this, what will my odds be of finding plans for a Long-EZ? (I'd like to do as much of the work myself as possible) If they're rare now, what's the outlook a year or two down the road?

 

Also, if your aircraft is listed as a super-indy-rg-hoodeeleehoo-EZ, are you going to be able to insure it?

 

Air-Ron

Aaron Morse

Cozy MK-IV Plans #1484

Tulsa, OK

www.TrapezeUniversity.com

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Specifically, if it takes me a significant amount of time to get to a financial situation where I can start all of this, what will my odds be of finding plans for a Long-EZ? (I'd like to do as much of the work myself as possible) If they're rare now, what's the outlook a year or two down the road?

For any plans-built, you'll spend your money over time. If you KNOW you want to do this, and will finish, get a couple thousand together, find/buy plans, material, and a handful of tools, and get on your way.

 

Also, if your aircraft is listed as a super-indy-rg-hoodeeleehoo-EZ, are you going to be able to insure it?

With a name like that, you might be asking for trouble. Things insurance will care about, from what I've gathered, are:

  • hours flying
  • hours in the type (you'll need to get checked out in another Long-EZ)
  • RGs are more to insure -- if the main gear doesn't retract, say it's not a retractable
Maybe one of the flyers could fill in the blanks here.

 

In any event, you're more than welcome of course to hang with us until you're ready to begin, but no sense waiting until you have all your pennies saved.

Jon Matcho :busy:
Builder & Canard Zone Admin
Now:  Rebuilding Quickie Tri-Q200 N479E
Next:  Resume building a Cozy Mark IV

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:confused: Oh well, I guess it is possible to use the copy of plans I have if I want. If what has been said about the RAF agreement is the go.

 

I think I am still going to go for the Cozy IV, suits my purposes better.

 

I really have no way of telling how accurate the copy of plans I have are (I am guessing they are fairly inacurate due to quality, not good)

 

dpaton, Best of luck with the Long-Eze, I hope you get your plans soon. myself I think I am a ways off purchasing plans so at the moment I am just dreaming about it and looking at all the web sites I can about people fufilling what I would like to one day.

"An upsidedown Australian that wants to build an aircraft that flys backwards"

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Here's a thought for those looking to build a Long-EZ... buy Cozy Mark IV plans and reverse engineer it back into a Long-EZ? Sound crazy? Maybe not...

  • Just lose 1 side-stick and a set of rudder pedals
  • Add a side-stick to the rear
  • Reduce bulkheads by... what? 50% 25% for a Wide-EZ?
  • High performance rudders already included
  • Speedbrake already included
  • Roncz canard already included
You'd have to find out more about the canard width and main wing profile, but this is a start.

Jon Matcho :busy:
Builder & Canard Zone Admin
Now:  Rebuilding Quickie Tri-Q200 N479E
Next:  Resume building a Cozy Mark IV

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dpaton, Best of luck with the Long-Eze, I hope you get your plans soon. myself I think I am a ways off purchasing plans so at the moment I am just dreaming about it and looking at all the web sites I can about people fufilling what I would like to one day.

Mine are got :D The nice people at Terf Inc have a licensed compendium for the plans and manuals and everything you need....except the templates. My search is now on for those templates. I've got a couple of leads, but no success yet.

 

As for building, I plan on taking my time. Canard first, then the wings, then the tub. Partially because I can hang wings and a canard from my garage ceiling for zero-space storage, and partly because the tub and strakes will need the most modifying for what I plan, and I'd like to defer it until I can accumulate some more cash.

 

-dave

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