Jon Matcho Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 Quote Originally posted by Jon Matcho: Even John Denver's death was critiqued to the point of "pilot error". Quote Originally posted by John Slade: If I had a nickel for every uninformed reason I've heard for John Denver's death I could afford a Garmin 430. A detailed report of this very unfortunate crash, as provided by the NTSB, can be found here. The Probable Cause section can be summarized as "pilot error", like it or not. Granted this is the NTSB story, but thankfully they are required to "talk" about such incidents. With most NTSB reports, one can actually learn something, regardless of whether the report is 100% accurate. Another thread here discussed the Cozy III crash in Islip, NY, where we were up in arms about the newspaper's accounting of the story. I personally wrote a letter to the editor appealing for corrections to the story. Yet, we managed to freely discuss the issues. In that thread, Jim Sower submitted a statement that makes an excellent point about learning: Quote We usually take something useful away from the exercise though (or at least we damn sure should). I can't count the guys I knew who were killed (or had some of those "intense learning experiences" our daddies warned us about) doing stuff that we all did. Examining their [apparent] actions and thinking them through led me to alter some of the ways I did stuff. I know that I'm still walking around largely for having gone through that process. Finally, to John Slade, I am disappointed by your earlier post, where I cannot help but feel "STFU" was directed at least partly my way. I will see you at Sun-n-Fun, and somehow doubt you will consider saying such a thing to me in person. Quote Jon Matcho Builder & Canard Zone Admin Now: Rebuilding Quickie Tri-Q200 N479E Next: Resume building a Cozy Mark IV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Slade Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 Quote I cannot help but feel "STFU" was directed at least partly my way. I think you read me wrong here, Jon. Actually I think we largely agree. The STFU was aimed at people (in general) who insist on speculating when they have no facts and pretty few bad guesses. I've never seen you do that, and certainly wasn't aiming the comment at our discussion about what to discuss. Quote somehow doubt you will consider saying such a thing to me in person. Feed me a few beers and I'll say anything to anyone if I think it's warranted. In fact I often don't need the beer. Don't be so fast to take things personally, Jon. I wasn't aiming at you at all. Had we having the discussion in person, you'd have known that. John (Proud owner of a certified airplane.) Quote I can be reached on the "other" forum http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbleturtle Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 Quote Finally, to John Slade, I am disappointed by your earlier post, where I cannot help but feel "STFU" was directed at least partly my way. Wow! Did THAT come WAYYYYY out of left field! I didn't gather that John's statement was directed at you at all. In fact, John only chided me about the CIII crash speculation... so try not to feel paranoid! On a completely separate subject... I think JD was beemed up in flight by aliens who thought his music could be the secret weapon to destroy them and repel their planned attacks after watching intercepted HBO satellite broadcasts of the movie "Invaders from Mars." Quote This ain't rocket surgery! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Slade Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 A detailed report of this very unfortunate crash, as provided by the NTSB, can be found here. The Probable Cause section can be summarized as "pilot error", like it or not. I've read the NTSB report. I've also read a very detailed report written by the guy who gave John Denver his transition training. My point was that every uninformed person I meet that has "heard" of JDs crash and is convinced that it was caused by X or Y or Z. All the reasons are different, and none of them are based in fact. Wild speculation starts rumours, which get passed around as facts and before you know it the guy's been tried and convicted of something totally incorrect. Sure, we know from the reports that JD made some serious errors and we can all learn from them. Rich Hughes won't deny that he made a few mistakes - long cold decent, low & slow into a strong headwind to name two. Icing in the throttle body was probably the third one that got him. Rich was "tried & convicted" of poor workmanship on his engine repair. Fact is the engine was fine and ran well when the FAA started it up. Quote I can be reached on the "other" forum http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Matcho Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 Paranoid? Give me a break. I used the word 'assumption', and ASSumption comes back. I mention John Denver, and get back "If I had a nickel for every uninformed reason I've heard for John Denver's death..." The "STFU" comment just got to me. Actively participating in the thread, how could I (or anyone else) not take offense? Regardless, it doesn't really matter at this point. Moving back to topic with reckless abandon, here's the FAA Report on the first incident for N200TZ, the plane in question. Apparently, I was wrong when I originally theorized that the "clutch slipped out of 'drill mode'." Per the FAA report, the pilot ADMITTED that he forgot to put "the clutch" into drill mode! As reported by the FAA THE PILOT STATED THAT THE REASON THE GEAR COLLAPSED WAS THAT THE CLUTCH WHICH HE HAD INTALLED WAS NOT SET STIFF ENOUGH. I am NOT CERTAIN whether the electrical tape was installed to fix that problem, but SUSPECT that to be exactly the case. IF this THEORY is correct, there probably was no tape at the time of the first incident, and the electrical tape was added as a fix. Now imagine a builder posting a question here: "I am low on funds and want to use a Makita drill to power my front landing gear. Any problems with that?" What sort of answers do you think WE would welcome this question with? In 2004, I have to believe we'd practically take a donation to get him one of the electric nose lifts or just have him go with the hand crank. I would also expect a smart arse to rise up and get a bit vocal, possibly with "are you freaking nuts?!" Think about that scenario for a moment... So then, here's the million dollar question. Why is it now that we are not allowed to ask, "Was he freaking nuts?"* * Note the subtle difference between asking someone if they're "freaking nuts" versus telling them they are. Quote Jon Matcho Builder & Canard Zone Admin Now: Rebuilding Quickie Tri-Q200 N479E Next: Resume building a Cozy Mark IV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Slade Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 Why is it now that we are not allowed to ask, "Was he freaking nuts?"* Well, one reason might be that we'd be talking TO rather than ABOUT him. Another would be that we saw pictures (i.e. facts) of the electrical tape on the drill-noselift. Yet another might be that he didn't die, and he doesn't have a distraught family possibly being exposed to unfounded critisism of their recently lost loved one. My rant, Jon, was just that - a rant. Aimed at the many examples I've seen of what I consider to be bad behavior. It wasn't aimed at you, and it wasn't aimed specifically at what was being said about this poor slob with his broken drill. It was just a rant. OK? As for the STFU - I've become familiar with the term because I have a button so labelled on my panel for the voice annunciator. Perhaps I used it too liberally. Didnt mean to cause offense. Quote I can be reached on the "other" forum http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Matcho Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 Originally posted by John Slade: It was just a rant. OK?Okay! It was nothing a couple beers couldn't fix anyway. On the topic of your newly certified aircraft... and not to take anything away from this magnificient event (congratulations!), but this fellow's aircraft was certified too. I wouldn't blame you if you taxi tested for the next month straight. Congratulations on your achievement John. Quote Jon Matcho Builder & Canard Zone Admin Now: Rebuilding Quickie Tri-Q200 N479E Next: Resume building a Cozy Mark IV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckthedog Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 Wait till you start flying around the country. Almost always someone will come up and ask. Is this the kind of plane John Denver got killed in. Or tell their buddy. Thats the kind of plane J.D. got killed in. IT'S A BAD RAP!!!!! As for this crash. It hit hard enough to wipe out the mains. Thats HARD. Quote If the phone don't ring. It's me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Sower Posted April 1, 2004 Share Posted April 1, 2004 Originally posted by chuckthedog ... someone will come up and ask. Is this the kind of plane John Denver got killed in....IT'S A BAD RAP... When that happens, I just tell them my plane is LOTS different from JD's ... my plane has gas in it ... my plane has a fuel tank selector valve that works ... my plane doesn't go flat-hatting down the beach ... etc. I don't get anal about it and the questioner seems satisfied. I try not to take it too personal that JD chose a plane like mine to kill himself in Quote ...Destiny's Plaything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Matcho Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 The official report from NTSB can be found here. Quote Jon Matcho Builder & Canard Zone Admin Now: Rebuilding Quickie Tri-Q200 N479E Next: Resume building a Cozy Mark IV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Matcho Posted August 25, 2004 Share Posted August 25, 2004 The link in the prior post is incorrect. You can search on N200TZ using the NTSB query tool here, or just look at the attached PDFs. Factual.pdf Probable Cause.pdf Quote Jon Matcho Builder & Canard Zone Admin Now: Rebuilding Quickie Tri-Q200 N479E Next: Resume building a Cozy Mark IV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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