Cozy2do Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 Hi all, Just starting out to set up area for the building process which will be in my garage. In my are I will have to heat this space. Most of the garage heaters available at Home Depot etc. are the unvented type. My question is if anyone knows if MGS epoxy is outgassing anything and if so, if it is flamable. Is there any danger with using this type of heater during the process? Thx! John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Slade Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 Hi John, I don't think there's anything flammable in MGS, or any other epoxy for that matter. The big issue with heaters is ventilation in general and the potential for particles in the air which might fowl the layups for bonding. (oil or propane heaters). Check the archives http://www.maddyhome.com/cozysrch/search for anything on shop heating and I think you'll find the info you need. Quote I can be reached on the "other" forum http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cozy2do Posted December 2, 2003 Author Share Posted December 2, 2003 Thanks John for the link and your reply. BTW You have a nice web site. Did a lot of reading over there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dust Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 I was told that kerosene heaters were bad for layups because the kerocene, can't spell worth a damn!!!, is not totally burned and can settle on the layups, wet or dry and cause future bonding problems Enjoy the build Mike Quote maker wood dust and shavings - foam and fiberglass dust and one day a cozy will pop out, enjoying the build i can be reached at http://www.canardcommunity.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Zeitlin Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 Originally posted by dust I was told that kerosene heaters were bad for layups because the kerocene, can't spell worth a damn!!!, is not totally burned and can settle on the layups, wet or dry and cause future bonding problems I'm not sure who told you that, but it's untrue. Had you been reading the messages on the COZY mailing list (to which you belong, but do not contribute, nor apparently read) regarding this subject that were posted in December, 2002 and March, 2003, you'd know that. There has never been a documented instance of kerosene heaters causing any layup or delamination problems, much less a crash or accident. Unfounded rumors and third hand unverified information is useless and misleading. As John pointed out, the COZY mailing list archives are chock full of information regarding shop heating of many different types, although he also erroneously referred to non-existent contamination. Quote Marc J. Zeitlin Burnside Aerospace marc_zeitlin@alum.mit.edu www.cozybuilders.org copyright © 2024 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Clifford Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 Your dead wrong on this one Marc I don't care WHAT is in the archives on this subject,,, the bottom line is that kerosene is a refined lubricant and even with the most efficiently adjusted torpedo heater, a lot of unburned fuel is being blown into the air, along with the humidity of the burned fuel. The by-product of ANY fuel burning heater is carbon dioxide.(This can kill you). I have a lot of experience in using these heaters for temporary heat in the homes I have built up north here in Michigan. After a few hours of use, you can see the stain of the unburned fuel on the wood floor in front of the heater. You need LOTS of ventilation when using these and I would not even consider fireing one up in my shop. Same goes for unvented propane construction heaters. In a tightly built shop, either one can KILL you from asphyxiation. At that point the lay-up doesn't matter. My advice to J.P. is to spend a little money and buy yourself a decent and SAFE vented furnace for heat. Quote Dave Clifford "The Metal Man" Musketeer Vise grip hands and Micrometer eyes!! Cozy MKIV Plans #656 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cozy2do Posted December 2, 2003 Author Share Posted December 2, 2003 Thanks all! I am planing to use natural gas, last weekend did the black pipe to bring it out from my house to the attached garage. Right now I am stuffing insulation above the ceiling. I was looking at the garage heaters that are available locally at Home Depot and Menards. It seem these are all unvented - that is what prompted my question - but they are lightweight and easy to install at the floor level. Also got recomendation from heating guy to get Hot Dawg made by Modine. He was recomending the 6oK BTU unit for my 3 car garage. This unit has intake from inside but is vented to the outside. The unit is 80 pounds so it would be a instalation chalenge to hang it from the ceiling. Like always, everything has pros and cons....Decisions,decisions..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Zeitlin Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 Originally posted by clifford Your dead wrong on this one Marc I don't care WHAT is in the archives on this subject,,, You're not going to claim that you don't care about the facts because you've already got an opinion, are you? the bottom line is that kerosene is a refined lubricant and even with the most efficiently adjusted torpedo heater, a lot of unburned fuel is being blown into the air, along with the humidity of the burned fuel. The by-product of ANY fuel burning heater is carbon dioxide.(This can kill you). Burning ANY carbon based fuel will make both carbon DI-oxide and carbon MON-oxide, which is what I believe you were trying to refer to here. Carbon DI-oxide exists in measurable percentages in air, and you'd have a difficult time killing yourself with it. Carbon MON-oxide, on the other hand, is what people commit suicide with in their garages with their car exhaust. None of this has the slightest thing to do with my comment regarding layup problems, however, since layups don't need to breathe. While you may be correct regarding a minuscule amount of unburned kerosene emitted from the burner, no other than Gary Hunter (and if Gary isn't a layup expert, especially with respect to epoxy properties, NO-ONE is) concurs that there is NO EFFECT on layups from using kerosene heaters. THAT was the import of my original response - I did not address the personal safety issue - just the layup one, since that's what Mike mentioned. ....You need LOTS of ventilation when using these .....My advice to J.P. is to spend a little money and buy yourself a decent and SAFE vented furnace for heat. And with this I have no argument, although I have used both kerosene and propane heaters in my workshop with no problem whatsoever, monitoring the air quality with a CO (Carbon Monoxide) detector. Quote Marc J. Zeitlin Burnside Aerospace marc_zeitlin@alum.mit.edu www.cozybuilders.org copyright © 2024 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Clifford Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 As usual you are about EVERYTHING Marc. Ain't you a little far from your home? Quote Dave Clifford "The Metal Man" Musketeer Vise grip hands and Micrometer eyes!! Cozy MKIV Plans #656 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Clifford Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 J.P. I got a Reznor 45000 and it seems to be working out ok so far. Its very similiar to the Hot Dawg and has a low profile. Got mine off Ebay used but only slightly used for $265. Quote Dave Clifford "The Metal Man" Musketeer Vise grip hands and Micrometer eyes!! Cozy MKIV Plans #656 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Slade Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 >nor apparently read) regarding this subject that were posted in >December, 2002 and March, 2003, you'd know that. Marc, UCR. Unnecessarilly Caustic Remarks. I don't remember what I read last week, never mind last March. >There has never been a documented instance of kerosene heaters >causing any layup or delamination problems, much less a crash or >accident. And there's no documentation to say it doesnt or won't either. >Unfounded rumors and third hand unverified information is useless >and misleading. The Cozy mail list archives are chock full of both. The trick is sifting the good from that bad. >he also erroneously referred to non-existent contamination. No, I referred to the potential for contamination, which exists. Your message reminds me of a line from Good Morning Vietnam. Quote I can be reached on the "other" forum http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Zeitlin Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 Originally posted by John Slade UCR. Unnecessarilly Caustic Remarks. I don't remember what I read last week, never mind last March. Sorry. >There has never been a documented instance of kerosene heaters >causing any layup or delamination problems, much less a crash or >accident. And there's no documentation to say it doesnt or won't either. As you well know, you can't prove a negative. Given that all this furor over kerosene started over one posting on a newsgroup years ago that was tracked down as being unfounded and thirdhand (admitted to by the original poster), and that a notable expert on Epoxies gave a long, fact filled explanation of why kerosene isn't a problem, real OR potential, with respect to layups, I find it irresponsible to repeatedly state that there MIGHT be a problem. There isn't. >Unfounded rumors and third hand unverified information is useless >and misleading. The Cozy mail list archives are chock full of both. The trick is sifting the good from that bad. True, but usually the incorrect statements are most often corrected AFTER they're made, so mostly all one has to do is continue reading or paying attention to the conversation. Either that, or the discussion is totally one of opinion, in which case there's no right answer (such as which engine to use). >he also erroneously referred to non-existent contamination. No, I referred to the potential for contamination, which exists. Yep. The potential exists. Worry about the meteorite that might hit you, or the shark that might eat you first, though - they're much more likely. Your message reminds me of a line from Good Morning Vietnam. Which one? (Here's your chance). Originally posted by clifford As usual you are about EVERYTHING Marc. So your recommendation would be that if I have a piece of information that might help someone, I should keep it to myself, if I've made another comment recently about a different subject? Gary Hunter doesn't post here - he'd correct you if he did. I won't apologize for having a good memory, and if people will be led astray by rumor and hearsay, I'll try to correct it. Ain't you a little far from your home? Not at all sure what this reference is to. Quote Marc J. Zeitlin Burnside Aerospace marc_zeitlin@alum.mit.edu www.cozybuilders.org copyright © 2024 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Clifford Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 Reference is to the Cozy news group you rule over( sorry I mean moderate.) If you ever wonder why few people with some time under their belt don't bother to contribute to any discussions on your forum, just take a look at your first response. You most always belittle questions that have been asked before with the standard "why do you ask about this?? If you read the archives you will find your answer posted in the October 1996 archives!!" Then go on to explain how smart you are with your quotes and statistics, when in fact you are being nothing more than a smart-ass. Get with it Marc!! Quote Dave Clifford "The Metal Man" Musketeer Vise grip hands and Micrometer eyes!! Cozy MKIV Plans #656 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Zeitlin Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 Originally posted by clifford Reference is to the Cozy news group you rule over( sorry I mean moderate.) If you ever wonder why few people with some time under their belt don't bother to contribute to any discussions on your forum, just take a look at your first response. You most always belittle questions that have been asked before with the standard "why do you ask about this?? If you read the archives you will find your answer posted in the October 1996 archives!!" Then go on to explain how smart you are with your quotes and statistics, when in fact you are being nothing more than a smart-ass. Get with it Marc!! There's so much misinformation in this paragraph (not to mention blatant ad-hominem attacks) that all I can do is wonder what color the sky is on your planet. Quote Marc J. Zeitlin Burnside Aerospace marc_zeitlin@alum.mit.edu www.cozybuilders.org copyright © 2024 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No4 Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 I can confirm that kero heaters can stink to high heaven {especialy if run on jet fuel)and can leave a brown stain on all the walls like cigarette smoke, what it does to epoxy I don't know. Of course proper ventilation is neccessary and beware of Carbon Dioxide and monoxide, mono is worse, but you still suffocate on CO2. The more CO2 in the room, the more monoxide out of the burner. As far as the argument that there is no documented proof, and to quote an internet mailing list as the Bible is ridiculous. They never had all three hydraulic systems fail on a DC-10 until Sioux City. Better to be safe than sorry, and I would reccommend gas :D Quote The Coconut King Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Hicks Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Guys: Use whatever heating source you want to keep the humans at survival temperature. Use an electric space heater and a heat tent to cure the part. No need to use kerosene or gas to cure the part. It's as simple as that. ...Wayne Hicks Quote Wayne Hicks Cozy IV Plans #678 http://www.ez.org/pages/waynehicks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Schubert Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 The natives are restless, must be the stress of the holidays:D Quote "We choose to do these things not because they are easy, but because they are hard." JFK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Hicks Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 I have a saying: "You can't change peoples' opinions; only the facts on which they're based." ...Wayne Hicks Quote Wayne Hicks Cozy IV Plans #678 http://www.ez.org/pages/waynehicks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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