SAF_Zoom

Thanks Steve, this article talks about this:

http://www.compositesworld.com/articles/lightning-strike-protection-for-composite-structures.aspx

It also give a glimps of how the Cirrus Sr-20 and 22 use this technology :

"Astrostrike aluminum mesh is produced by Astroseal Products (Chester, Conn.) from a solid foil, which is then perforated and expanded to increase formability and augment adhesion to composite structures. Astroseal claims that its product provides significantly greater conductivity than woven mesh, while offering weight savings vs. metallized fiber products (see "Metallized fabrics and fibers," p. 47). Cirrus (Duluth, Minn.) uses Astrostrike on the fiberglass composite airframes of its FAA-certified SR-20 and SR-22 single-engine, piston-powered aircraft. Astrostrike aluminum mesh is embedded in the composite layup, and 3-inch to 4-inch (76 mm to 102 mm) metal strips run the length of the plane to electrically bond the aircraft's surfaces to its frame. The company knows of two lightning strikes to Cirrus aircraft: one hit the propeller tip and went through the engine; the other went through the airframe and exited through metal flake paint on the plane's graphics. Both were conducted through the aircraft as designed, without causing injuries or seriously damaging structures or equipment."

At first glance looks to be a simple process... but first glance can be misleading

Thks Neverquit, but I'm not confusing anything,

Just jumping from one subject to the other...

Let me know how in works out for you,

hmmmmmm ............ I s'pose if I was so inclined I could add these to the trailing edge of my wing (Carbon Fiber) but most likely not.

 

There are many REAL dangers and issues that should be addressed well ahead of the possibility of being struck by lightling.

(example: Going down in saltwater and being attacked by sharks infected with an STD.)

Thats why you should always have a rubber....... dinky

But seriously, I was reading up on surface films... some say they can cut done on the sand/fill/sand cycle a lot... Some can be used when vacuum-bag process is used... and some even have embeded conductive metal mesh for LSP (lightning stike protection)...

Thats what I was looking for.

As anyone here done this to his LE (or other)? And what are the risks or downside ?

I searched Canard Zone for "lightning" and came up with 26 thread hits.

I searched the Cozy Archives for "lightning" and came up with 144 hits.

I searched the Canard Aviators List and found 137 hits.

 

That is over 300 different ways (admittedly with a high degree of overlap) to see what other folks have encountered or thought about lightning. The most publicized incident (Kriedel) has a very well written explanation on what happened, and what could have been done to prevent it (don't fly in weather that may produce lightning).

 

I assume you read through at least the majority of those posts and formed your question as to what can be done about it. The conclusion was that nothing specific could be done to significantly minimize the damage from a lightning strike, and that the best action was to minimize the probability of a lightning strike occurring by not flying in weather that is conducive to lightning strikes.

 

So, what exactly was your question that was not answered in the archives?

Ha yes the 26 thread with a mention of the word "lightning" but no discussion of the subject except avoid at all cost... Could be just that, but maybe there is a way to reduce the impact/effect of mild stikes... I'm weel aware that fully immunizing an LE from Lightning stikes is less then likely. But this was only part of the question...

But what I'm mostly interested in... was what is being done to discharge static electricity build up... Surely there as been advances made in 30 years...

And I'm not just talking about proper grounding and refueling techniques thats just common sence, I'm talking about the use of aircraft static discharger and their installation...

Thanks for the links

And BTW... Relax Tmann... I'm only in my second/third week... not year ;o)

Zoom,

To give you a concept of what that 'small" time investment of knowledge would mean to you up front, if a newbee spends a day with us and gets the full story, demos, tour, tool demos, techniques, pictur book tour (Randi can talk a bit) I can guarantee it will knock 500 hrs off your build. Nowadays we do not have the luxury to do these visits any more.

Study the knowledge base, study to builders web sites, join the EAA chapters, visit builders. We wish we had.

Tools, Tips, Techniques, its not just the learning curve.

There are still people out there who use scissors, pizza cutters, brushes, and saws. Sure you could build with a lot less and there are going to be memebers of the Olde Guarde who have built and flown aircraft who will speak up and say why not?, it was good enough for them. I'm sure it was and some of them built fine aircraft but the point is that much has evolved and if you dig you can reap the benefit.

I know that visiting builders/owners would be the best... but... up here in Montreal Canada, their are very few canard type aircraft. If you guys know of any, please let me know. I'm already a EAA member, so I will have to see what the local chapter offers.

Also, Cozy Girrl, if you have a quick list of required tools that you can send my way, you would be most welcome if you would do so.

I'm ready to kick this thing in high gear, but with all the bits and peaces of info out there its hard to be sure nothing as been overlooked...

BTW... the work table is ready

Thanks,

Pretty much how see it too, but who knows... an once of prevention is worth .....

Ok while researching accident report involving a LE, I can up on this one:

http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/1996/n-vn960917/htm/n-vn960917.html

For those of you that don't speak/read French it tells of a LE flying at 9600' when it got hit by lightning. There was evedence of electric arcs on one of the control tubes... According to the report one of the wing exploded from the strike.

I know that these planes were buil for VFR flying away from conditions where one would expect lighting to be a danger. But lightning can strike a good distance from a storm... Ive seen holes the size a 25 cent in the fuselage of widebodies from lightning strikes.

Do any of you know of a way to protect against such a risk ? Also what about static dischargers ?

As always just looking for what as been done before.

Tmann, when I say, if one is not very familiar... I'm talking about Joe the Plumber here

And thank for the link to the index,

The search tool on this site works really well. Keep in mind that there have been quite a few newbies out there who have actually said that they don't want to take the time to search through the posts (because they would rather someone else take the time to answer).

 

The first place I go is the CPs and Cozy newletters and Central States newsletters (but I don't have all the CSA newletters---I have everything else). I actually take the time to catalog all the articles within an excel spreadsheet----which I use a lot. Then I check the websites and use the search tool. Then I go ask questions.

OK so your idea is having a guy that is not trully convinced on a design to go out and buy $600 of material (Terf CD and back issues of CSA newsletters) and take 3 to 4 weeks going through that stuff... Wow... thats efficient Also when one starts out... and he is not very familiar with airplanes (or more so with canard type airplane) how is he even suppose to know what to look for?

BTW I was thinking of building an index for all of my CSA newsletters... I can see you have it done... could be a good idea to post it somewhere. This would incourage many more to go out and buy them when they have an idea of the countant. The way I see it, every time one's starts a project he as to reinvent the wheel... no wonder they still take 3000+ hours to complete more then 30 years after the first one flew...

i for one find it unspeakable that you have the audacity to question anything in the relm......cuz;) i jumped in with both feet and didn't read a thing. just started building. no ride, no goal, no plane. and guess what ? i modded everything from stem to stern. will it fly?? some say no, i say...let a test pilot find out:p you seam to have asked every question that i have in just over 2 or 3 weeks....it took me over 4 years, but the sad part is had i asked, i could of saved hundred of hours of omgwtfdid. so stop it and put in your omgwtfdid like the rest of us did !

 

ps tmann was put on his head as a child

But I understand, why some must be tired of answering the same old questions. But if I may suggest something. I know that most of my questions could have been answered if someone (recognised as very knowlegeble) had taken the time to put up a thread (that should be stickied and maybe even locked so that it does not get "currupted") were these issues would be discussed:

Fuselage modifications : Common mods (i.e.: longer nose). And what one can expect it he goes wider/longer fuselage (pros and cons/risks);

Wings/Canard/strakes (i.e. moving bulkheads for more fuel, going wet leading edges, etc.)

Engines (certified Lycomings, uncertified Lycs or others)

Landing gears mod (fixed vs retract)

I think that a sticky FAQ thread (could entitled "Initiation to the Long EZ design") that discuss (in an impartial way) these questions with pros and cons would cut down significantly on the newby factor... Newbies are not all engineers or aircraft tech...

After a few weeks of reading through countless threads and asking questions I know that most of that stuff is out there, could be worth to have it organised....

Just my 2 cents,

Well as I indicated to Jtest in another thread... this newb is an aircraft technician... not a plumber not an accountant not... wait thats not true LOL after going back to university I am now a forensic accountant...

But I have spent a fair deal of time around, under, over, inside... airplanes... lol

But you guys got to realised that no newbs... asking newbies question = no more canards being built... This means this kind eventually fades to memory and when you want to sell yours in 20-40 years... well ....

As for the dreaming part... I'm not dreaming at all... actually all is purchased (Terf CD, CSA assoc, EAA assoc, Open EZ plans printed... etc). I'm still keeping my eyes open for a good deal on a flying example though...

I find it strange that experience builders question why newbies would ask about what can and cannot be done with such and such design... humm maybe we/they want to learn from previously made mistakes.... and not make them themselves... is that so hard to understand...

And guess what... the best time to asked question is before you actually start. Then you can move forward... without to many OMFGWDID lol

G'day

 

I am at a loss understanding SAF_Zoom. SAF_Zoom is fairly new (10 days) and has by his own admission had at least one crazy (or more) idea in this forum.

 

Mark Twain said it best; "Action speaks louder than words but not nearly as often."

 

I would hope SAF_Zoom would kindly be less frequent with his postings (over 2.5 per day) and his voice would be louder, but that clearly is not the case.

 

Against better advise (from several builders with experience and pictures to prove it) he continues to start threads that are advanced and require major modifications and money. Small modifications impact every aspect of the build; that is why I abanoned making the fuselage several inches wider (a fairly simple mod, but it impacts almost every future step of the build). I have learned that if I build a second aircraft from the plans all the changes required.

 

Mark Twain (again) "There are basically two types of people. People who accomplish things, and people who claim to have accomplished things. The first group is less crowded."

 

I am building and have completed Chapters 4,5,6,7,8,9 & 14. I am currently working on Chapter 10 & 11. I have purchased an O-320 D3G and have it sitting in the hanger. I have submitted several drawings for full sized parts the Terf-CD does not provide when printed on standard sized paper. Pointed out the lack of a correct size cut-out in Chapter 7 for the Canard cutout due to resizing during printing.

 

My advise to SAF_Zoom is based on my one year of experience building from the Terf-CD and Open EZ templates you seem reluctant to purcahse even though you admit they are "insignificant". In my humble opinion, it will be much cheaper for you to purchase a half completed project. There is one on ebay listed now, but so is the Terf-CD (for under $200 (US)).

 

The modifications will require a set of plans for a baseline to make changes. Against better advise SAF_Zoom continues posting "Crazy" ideas and has only purchased a membership in CSA (A good thing in my opinion). But I continue to be amazed by the number of postings show up in threads for a newbie that clearly hasn't done (and most likely will never do) anything.

 

I welcome productive questions from everybody, but recommend SAF_Zoom continue to find the 20+ builders that he has proposed build his airplane. I for one would gladly vote his postings off the island and put his TIKI tourch out with no immunity.

 

For the members that are building the risk of SAF_Zoom being taken as a legitimate source of anything risks a legitimate builders projects and lives.

 

Mark Twain (yet again) "Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

 

SAF_Zoom continues to remove any doubt.

 

Respectfully submitted;

 

Jeff

I ear you Jtest... Guess only time will tell

I ear you Jtest,

These are notorious for low completion.

Most poeple don't realise the dedication one most give his project to see it through. 3000 hours (typical time) does not sound long but its close to 2 years worth of 40 hours per week building.

Given that life will undoubfully throw you a curve along the way... most are bound to take way more then 2 years to get airborn

BTW I too find it frustrating, its hard to determine what is genuine information from that of illinform participant.

I'm only in my planning phase... and from the looks of it... I will start building soon (its going to be an Open EZ). So I have no actual "hands on" experience with this type.

Regards,

G'day

 

I purchased two Weiss scissors. I use one set for cutting glass off the roll before any epoxy is applied and the second set for work after the glass is wet and needs some trimming.

 

I am not sure about the emergecny technician scissors. I know the newbie SAF_Zoom hasn't built any chapter or even purchased the Terf-CD as of a week ago. He posts often, but has questionable experience. Take the advise of several veterans or a newbie with no experience, your choice.

 

I do know that for the 30+ years the Weiss scissors have worked well. At the price of epoxy and glass, I will use the tried and true equipment.

 

Just my humble opinion; yours may differ and we will agree to disagree.

 

Jeff

The newbie you talk about is an aircraft technician and I used to be in the Canadian Ski Patrol... so this is where I found out about these great scissors... a bit unconvential but still very good. I like showing mine of by cutting a cent in two pieces...

http://www.stjohnsupplies.co.uk/products/default.asp?productId=F11935

They do not have a long cutting edge though... but for the price...

And they do not replace all scissors or cutting tools... they are just one more tool for the trade.

And BTW the Terf CD is purchased LOL... Like that changes anything

Rumour has it that my wife ordered the Cozy MKIV plans for my birthday.

Hey Crazycanuck, are you the same Crazycanuck that flies Spits vs 109...

I build cheaper than most of the other builders. I bought 36 grit bandsander belts and cut them up with tin snips. Do your self a favor and buy a Fein tool. I bought mine on ebay it works great. I spent more on the cutters for it than I did the tool. Get some good Weis scissors hope I spelled that right you can cut wet out glass with them and then wipe them down it will take a couple of sharpenings to make it through a plane. I dont know how I made my first Longeze without the fein tool. They did not exist back then to my knowledge. Get a good bunch of varied size clamps you will use them all along the way. Get a signed document from your wife that says it is allright to build this plane and hang it up on the shop wall. When the wife complains point to the paper it helps. STeve build on

Just a thing on scissors... one can buy a pair of emergency technician scissor (ambulance worker ???) they will cut throught anything from paper to metal.... so cutting fiber glass.... not even a problem....

Yes that is true (about the previous offer)

Sorry I forgot... I'm offically making a list of all offering help (with subject)...

Regards,

I wrote that article 20 years ago. I sold the plane 10 years ago, less the engine. That very engine now sits in my Volmer VJ22 but I have upgraded the engine management system to RWS EC2.

 

My LE has an O-320E2D. The RV7 I built before finishing the LE had an O-360A1A. As I mentioned elsewhere, I've done it both ways and there are pros and cons to either engine. I could get into a great, long dissertation about the plus'es and minus'es but I don't want to bore anyone. The short answer is, if you want to fly... go Lycoming. If you want to tinker, the rotary is a fun project.

Hi, I'm from Montreal BTW, and I would very much like to have such a conversation. I'm in the planning stage right now, so its the perfect time to think about engine installation. I know a bit about rotary engines, I used to own (and fix) a RX-7. I'm also an ex-aircraft technicien so I know also a bit about Lycs / Cont.

I would like to talk about the reliability (and performance) of the RWS EC2 as it seems this is where most of the problems are comming from (I could be wrong here... that's why I'm asking).

Finally, what do you think of the space available in a LE to fit either a 13b or 20b rotary in the back? Would it be better of with a STD install or a "plugs up" installation. Which would yeild a cowling that mostly reasemble a "stock" Lyc LE?

Anyway, hope to have a chance to chat about the above,

Thanks, Tmann already have all the info on this one.

You are installing a 20b if I'm not mistaken... that's a 3 rotors engine.. right?

Is it going to be just a bit heavy?

BTW, is your fusalage stock? or is it wider?

I'm wondering which installation )std (plus to the side) or plug up would make for nicer cowling (more in line with the plans).

Regards,

Hi guys,

As usual, just trying to get your opinion on such an installation in a LE.

Would it fit more easaly in the back?

Here is a link to such an installation (its not a LE though).

http://www.flyrotary.com/whypu.htm

Thanks agains,

Is the Cozy MIV spar and wing construction the same as that of the LE (other then the lentgh)? Or do they differ. If they do what are the main difference (i.e. different composites/foams etc...)?

When you're ready ...... see the CozyGirrrl for the rotary engine mount.

None better!

Will do

Found this when looking around... if anyone is interested in a Wankel for his plane...

http://www.rotaryengines.ca/main/aircraft.htm

These seem to have been adapted specifically for aircrafts