Canadian looking for a Longez project.

[Aclouston]

Hi guys 

First post ever!

I'm looking for an early stage Longez project it could also be Varieze or a Cozy. Our canadian DAR requires that they inspect wings, canard and center spar during fabrication. I do not have much hope of finding such an early stage project (be it a Varieze or a Cozy for that matter) that even the center spar is not done. Also I can't bring in a previously flying plane turned in a project. Is is worth to buy a project that may even have wings and canard made, remove the center spar and start over from there?

I see for example that there is currently an opportunity to buy a project available is the "sales i've seen" where the wings are not started but the center spar is of course installed. I'm no tsure where is located though? There is also one more advanced in Arkansas and that is pretty much the furtherest(Is that a word? )i'd be willing to trailer it to Montreal, Quebec

 

Having no concrete experience with fiberglass fabrication, it's quite a steep learning curve to start with a canard or center spar do you agree? Should I still consider this "buy a partial project" option or should I resolve to start from scratch? Is that even possible today?

Thanks for helping out with your comments.

Allan Clouston

 

[Kent Ashton]

18 hours ago, Aclouston said:

Having no concrete experience with fiberglass fabrication, it's quite a steep learning curve to start with a canard or center spar do you agree? Should I still consider this "buy a partial project" option or should I resolve to start from scratch? Is that even possible today?

The plans are very good at starting you from zero and IMO an EZ or Cozy are easy scratch-built projects but not particularly cheap to build these days.  Figure at least US$ 30K for an EZ and at least US$ 40-45K for a Cozy.  Download Long-EZ or Varieze plans from the Open-EZ or Open-Vari topics here and examine the opening chapters.  Buying a tub or project would save you some time and money.  I imagine Canadian DARs would be satisfied with original builder pictures if the result looks good and you showed you had built enough of the airplane to show competence.

Edited May 5 by Kent Ashton

[Aclouston]

Thank you very Ken for  your comments.

On the topic of Minister's Delegate Recreational Aviation (MD-RA), our Dar, I just spoke to the in my area and he made a point on insisting that pictures will not do it. He has to whitness first hand the prep work, the building and the finalization of the steuctural element. Welcome to Canada!

I would like to build ( or completed a project while maintaining the original concept as much as possible (save for the Roncz canard)

Small engine, manual landing gear and air brake. However, the engine support beams would be ready for a O-320 engine. This is what "I would like", but is it realistic?

Can everything still be found at Cozy Girrrls and Aircraft Spruce to build an original one? For ex: I see the worm gear but not the other prefab alum. stuff. I don't see prefab fiberglass like the gear struts, front wheel storage houzing, sumps etc. Where do I get those?

[Kent Ashton]

1 hour ago, Aclouston said:

n the topic of Minister's Delegate Recreational Aviation (MD-RA), our Dar, I just spoke to the in my area and he made a point on insisting that pictures will not do it. He has to whitness first hand the prep work, the building and the finalization of the steuctural element. Welcome to Canada!

I think I would contact EAA in Canada.  Maybe here  https://chapters.eaa.org/eaacanada/the-canadian-council   and discuss it with someone familiar with Canada regs.  There are all kinds of inspectors--some reasonable, some not.  The thing is to not get linked with one who is an a**hole.  Here in the U.S. if you get a bad inspector, you just have to live with him;  the FAA here does not like to switch DARs.  Lots of 0-320s have been put on Long-ezs using heavier mount angles during the build.  The manual gear might be found on the used market, fab'd or an electric gear used.  Fiberglass struts, cowls and canopies are available.  Front wheel blisters and sumps you would build.   It is a little more challenging than building a Zenith or Vans airplane where everything you need comes in a box.

The main thing is to determine if a canard airplane is right for you.  There is a lot to recommend the more modern kits with everything supplied.

[Aclouston]

Thanks 

I've look at many models before and pretty much fell in love with the canard design. Have read the manuf. Manual 2,3 times and the related cps until it got either boring or filled with a clear impression of panic where every accident/incident (many stupids) seemed to justify a kind of state of alert and translate automatically mandatory grounds. May it's just me... Although as a mechanical engineer, I must say I agreed with most them. Anyway, sorry that was my editorial bit for the day. The point beeing it's defi nitly going to be: 1st a longez, 2nd a Varieze to complete, if that exist, or 3rd a Cozy (I love the Cozy it's just a bit too much of a plane for my needs right now). That part is solved.

I'm very sorry to be asking many basic questions. I'll be out of network all of next week and I'm climbing a steep learning curve. As you might expect I will calm dowm once I start working. So here it goes:

1- Once I throw my inqueries at C-girrrls, Aircraft Spruce and Aero Composites and for a basic longez kit, am I delusional to expect to receive the fraction from each suppliers that will equate exactly to everything I need? (you can read that sarcastically) including quantities of same items? Quoted by chapter? Or is it going to be "Dear valued customer, the catalogue is there, take your manual and figure it out!" in a polite tone of course...

May be a most recent longez starter, later than Ary Glantz, could give me some insight?

Note: The wood, glass, epoxy and miscellaneous glass/epoxy material requirement seems pretty straightforward to order I have to say.

2- If I find a project that seems worth investigating, like may be the one in Arkansas, can someone put me in contact with an experienced builder in that area that is a good critique and could come with me to inspect? is there such a thing as a builder's registry for the East US on Northeast?

How do I get the most of the Central State Newslettre for which I'm totally unfamiliar with. Can someome tell me which back letters relates only to the longez? If not, how far back should I go to be relevant for each of the 3 models? I am not interested in re-reading again anything that has already been discussed in the 82 cps I've read already, only if it gives new insight or perspective on a particular issue or precious builder's hints (I enjoy those).

That's all for now. I guess it wasn't so bad? Wasn'tit? But you tell me.

thank much in advance.

 Allan

[Kent Ashton]

Parts:  Yes, it will take some patience to get every component you need but they are out there.  Shipping ones-and-twos is very expensive though.  This is why buying a project is very cost effective you generally get all the bulder's labor for free.  Work harder on how to get a project or components approved by the Canadian authorities.  You need to find someone familiar with canard construction.  Many officials are not.

Other links:  Here is a post with lots of links.  Many dead but many still active.   https://www.canardzone.com/forums/topic/32503-a-heapin-helpin-of-builder-links/

Arkansas project:  Which project?  Join COBA which publishes a list of members.  I would call up some of them near the project.  Also there is a wealth of info there, including the old Central States Newsletters (i think).  https://canardowners.com/     No builder registry I know off for EZs.  Building a Cozy is similar and there is lots of advice for Cozys that apply  http://www.cozybuilders.org/

You could also read the 2394+ posts by me at this site and Marc Zeitlin's 1366 posts.  🙂

 

Edited May 6 by Kent Ashton

[Aclouston]

The Arkansas project was posted by Zolotiyeruki Thursday at 3:10 pm. 

The owner has a long and a Cozy MK. The longez was a flying plane however; N775AM. (I was mixing it up with the one in Denver Colorado $1500 that has wings not done yet). I'll re-check the procedure with EAA but I know it's a lot more complicated process to bring a registered plane into Canada. I have to have the owner de-register the plane, and have detailed paperwork when I'll be crossing the border.

So, unless there something else that I'm not aware of, the two other longez projects are in Utah and Denver Colorado. That is 37hrs of driving at 60 m/h. Coming back with the load at say 30 m/h staying away highways that is probably 120 hrs+ of trailoring. Ouch!

I will need help finding something closer to Montreal.

[Aclouston]

Thanks for the links. I'll investigate..

Allan

[Kent Ashton]

This is the best document I saw from a cursory Google search about importing a U.S. experimental to Canada. 

https://www.md-ra.com/docs/ImportForeignAmateurAircraft.pdf

Here in the U.S. some have found that it is prudent to do a background check on any DARs or officials who are going to inspect the aircraft and select one as carefully as possible.  EAA chapters, mechanics, companies that do modifications on aircraft might have opinions.  A bad DAR can really make life difficult

[Bruce G]

Hello from Winnipeg,

I had some of the same questions as you when I  started looking at canards some years ago. I came to the conclusion that it would be too difficult to import anything but a completed aircraft. The MD-RA organization is set up to either inspect an aircraft as it's being built in Canada, or inspect for importation a completed aircraft that has flown off its 50 hours. I bought a nice flying Long-EZ 4 years ago and the importation went smoothly. Lots of research and paperwork but not an unreasonable amount. Message me if you have any questions.

[Aclouston]

Thanks Bruce and Ken

Ken 

In investigating the build option I think I see from you a cost range starting from 30K. I'm going through the links to builders you forward me. I see a guy that planned 40K in 2003. His last update is 2008. He has center spar to finish, wings and canopy. To do:  winglet and rudders, strakes, engine, electrical, instrumentation, fairings and finishing among others. He is at 16K and far from beeing done. ( He is showing an engine price nor instrunents). So It's clear to me this fellow is going to hit 50-60K. Nothing wrong with that I shall say, I'm trying to get an idea of a range for my would be O-235, all manual longez. Assuming a fairly low time engine, I'll assume this $Usd 50-60K. I'll reajust based on poeple's comment. 

[D Bryan]

Hello Allan,

 

I have a thought that may work out for you.  I have an O-320 powered Long that I had to take the wings and engine off due to hangar space issues (and a large family).  What makes my Long a possible answer for you was that it was made in Canada.  It was given an N-number years ago, but all of the approvals and inspections that Canada requires was completed.

Just a thought.  I haven't put it up for sale yet, but may soon.  I would sell it as a project due to its current assembly - but it's a fast plane and you could put in a new panel if you were so inclined.

 

Doug

[Aclouston]

Doug

I am new to this forum way of communicating so I never saw that you made this post. Sorry about that. I am interested in your project plane. Based on Kent Ashton's recommendation, I'm still trying to reach my local EAA rep. I've been unsuccesfull so far. If this gets me nowhere, I'll talk again to my DAR. If he says it can work, I certainly will want to visit (if and when you are ready to sell).

Best regards

Allan