electronic controls for air cooled old aircraft engines

[dust]

Had a great talk with Tracy Crook, and he can supply me with a black box that controlls ignition, injection and turbo control!!!!!!!

 

Interesting thoughts on the subject, i was thinking that you should constantly monitor the egt for best fuel to each cylinder, he says no, but yes. In a perfect world where egt probs last forever and always give accurate readings, Yes, but they don't last forever and when they, in his experience, start to go, they give bad readings first and then crap out somewhere down the line.

 

The problem becomes very dificult then in determining if the sensor has failed (programmitically) and then doing something about it.

 

In the real world, he has you set up the fuel injectors when all are new and the egt probs are working correctly and adjusts the fuel injection to each cylinder based on this data and then the black box uses that info and balances the fuel flow on that information, until you recalibrate because of a injector change or whatever.

 

In his experience, it is just like using gami injectors, but instead of treamendous mechanical tweeking, you can do it electronically.

 

This really adds up as my accident investigator/DAR buddy does not believe in using egt sensors for daily use, he like to go to known, preset engine parameters of fuel flow, manifold preasure and RPM.

 

So 2+2 = 4, i love it when that happens.

 

On the fuel flow amount, because the engine is set up with accurate data for each cylender and the EGT's can be equalized for all conditions, he runs lean of peak at all times, scares me?? I think I would rather do that at cruise and run rich of peak on climb and takeoff.

 

 

So will electronic ignition/injectors really give me more HP or fuel economy

 

 

S3etting this engine is going to take ground running, soooooooooooo i guess i will have to buy a coupla of leaf blowers and duct them to the NACA scoops to supply the engine enough cooling air at the hanger

 

enjoy the build

 

 

Mike

[John Slade]

he runs lean of peak at all times, scares me??

 

And so it should. He doesn't have exhaust valves to burn off. You do

 

Hey - while you're talking to Tracy, why not his EC2 AND his redrive, then call Bruce Turrentine for a rotormotor.

[Jim Sower]

because the engine is set up with accurate data for each cylender and the EGT's can be equalized for all conditions

This works better on auto conversions because they have reliably equal air flow to all the cylinders, which is definitely not the case with Lyc-Con engines. You would probably have to set yourself up for your most common cruise power setting (at your most common cruise altitude) and adjust the injectors for that condition. Like on my Lyc, if I set up for cruise at altitude and power setting, one cylinder is the closest to peak and my EGT monitor identifies and highlights it. When I descend (maintaining the same power setting) the "peak" cylinder is different, and if I change power settings at the cruise altitude the "peak" cylinder is different again. All because of uneven flow through the runners under different conditions.

 

That said, you can (if you want to, and learn to) adjust Tracy's mixture "on the fly". Starting with some generic cruise setup, modify it for the conditions you find yourself in. It would probably be a lot more trouble than it's worth, but it could be done. Given the asymmetry of aircraft induction systems, leaning the hottest cylinder to peak is about as good as you can do - especially since you don't want to be LOP and as a practical matter you can't achieve uniform flow.

 

It will vastly change your pumps (all electric) and plumbing (45 psi pressure regulated rails with return flow to tank) from lower pressure, one way certified injection set-ups. That will also require a bullet proof electrical system and, most likely, electronic ignition replacing one mag. But a net gain overall.

 

As best I can picture it on short notice ... Jim S.

[dust]

but with electronic fuel injection, can't i regulate each cylender to have the same egt, or almost the same??

 

Won't that help fix the airflow problem with the right/appropiate amount of fuel?

 

enjoy the build

 

learning what is "real" not what i want to be real

 

Mike

[Jim Sower]

Yes ... but you'll be constantly f..king with the computer - like every time you change altitude or rpm. You'll need a GOOD engine monitor (I have an Insight GEM 602).

 

Yes it would

 

Get a really good handle on the electrical and plumbing requirements and how you're going to implement them before you commit to anything.

 

Or get a Mazda and do it right "right out the gate" ... Jim S.

[LargePrime]

It seems that

IF the EGT probe was reliable then the computer could richen or lean (also need to know which side of the curve you are on, but thats a lookup table) to get to the EGT you desire.

 

You could have all the EGT's within some small amount.

 

All depends on a good EGT probe.

[dust]

might it also need a new tuned carbon fiber intake manifold??

 

enjoy the build

 

mike

[John Slade]

I love the way he ignores the digs and keeps right on truckin. Determination has to be admired!

[LargePrime]

I think he just considers the source

 

[No4]

Is this device necessary?

Dust I'm failing to see what benefit there is of this electronics.

Surely it's easy enough to move the throttle lever to the desired manifold pressure setting, and the mixture lever to the correct fuel flow.

Isn't the timing fixed to the magnetos, or do you have electonic ignition?

What you want to achieve sounds possible with a lap top and a Jap turbo efi engine, but not the old Continental.

[dust]

people have a nasty habbit of overboosting these engines on take off, in one box i can optimize fuel flow to each cylender, controll boost and electronic ignition.

 

in my silly mind, hasn't electronic control brought car engines a long way in the last 30 years?

 

the gami injectors regulate the fuel flow mechanically, why not just go the next step and regulate it electronically.

 

No4, i thought it was you that told me about this over boost condition?

 

I am trying to figure why turboed airplane engines have a reputation of being "hanger Queens" and solve them before they arrise.

 

enjoy the build

 

Mike

[No4]

I'm not totaly familiar with the factory set up. I thought it was mechanical fuel injection with fixed ignition from the magnetos?

 

The magic box sounds great, but it also sounds like a weak link. Are you really expecting any performance gain? A lot of hard work for maybe 5hp or 0.5 gph better fuel consumption. Is it tested in icing and severe turbulence? The two mechanical levers linked to the MAP and EGT gauge by the Mk I eyeball are pretty reliable, and that's what thousands of pilots around the world use.

 

It's not hard to avoid overboost, you just have to be sensible with the throttle, show some anticipation. The fuel flow couldn't be easier, use the settings from the flight manual, and then lean using the EGT gauge as necessary. This electronic device uses a ground setting anyway for the injectors.

 

I think a lot of turbo planes are not used much because of the difference in operating a turbocharged engine. A turbo is not suitable as say a PPL trainer, all that opening and closing the throttle is bad for the engine. I'm told on descent you have to be very careful not to shock cool the motor, you need to slowly reduce power over 15 minutes if descending from altitude. The old Lycomings and Continentals can barely handle sea level pressure, giving them too much torque, heat or boost and it's hello trees.

 

You seem a pretty conservative guy, choosing a Continental when everyone else is going auto, but hoping for individualy tuning cylinders on a 1930's engine, somehow I can't see it. I think it will be a world of headaches, and the possibility of it failing...

I had a pipe from the intercooler come loose on my Skyline. It confused the electronic system so badly it just missfired and blew black smoke with a total loss of power, it cost me a set of plugs(platinum) and a new oxygen sensor. I heard of something similar happening in a homebuilt with a Subaru turbo.

Simple old mechanical system is pretty hard to beat for me.

 

 

 

 

[Jim Sower]

Mike

I agree with 4. Trying to marry some of the latest solid state technology to a 70 year old engine design is not a COMPLETE waste of time, but it's certainly not the most productive development effort you could get involved with. You're going to spend all the money and time and effort that John and everyone is going through, except at the end of the day, you still have a #$(*^#$# Continental. If you make it to TBO, the overhaul costs you $10k - $20k. John rebuilds his Mazda (after 3000 hrs) for $600. Can you say "... trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear ..."?

 

At the risk of repeating myself .... DO THE MATH .... Jim S.

[LargePrime]

Being hard to beat… and hard to beat for you… are very different.

 

EFI and Electronic Ignition should get him at least 5% more hp and fuel economy. Tracy’s unit is totally redundant and very robust. That’s a very conservative number as he can now fully control the spark advance curve and air fuel ration TO EACH CYLINDER automagicaly. Imagine EGT’s all within 10C! Easy to save 2GPH with a lean burn turbo system.

 

The waste gate control alone is a no brainer. Fully redundant and UNABLE to over boost AND SAVE OVER 20 LBS!! Comparable weight savings as all the mechanical systems are removed and replaced by electronics.

 

Selling just the boost controller alone would pay for everything else!

[No4]

Hallo Largeprime,

Does this Continental EFI system actualy exist? Do those figures correspond to the Continental or were you refering to efi in general? 2 gph and more power sounds remarkable.

 

I looked at Tracy's site, and couldn't see anything except for auto engine systems.

 

The ignition, isn't this fixed to the magnetos? To control spark timing will you need to replace the mags?

 

Am I right this system requires a new fuel control unit, injectors, electronic ignition, and an electronic wastegate? $ound$ expensive. You can buy a lot of avgas for $1500.

 

I still can't imagine the big old six fine tuning itself as it goes along. Putting an experimental ignition harness onto it defies the point of using a certified engine surely?

 

I think if you want good fuel consumption you need to go auto or diesel, for example at a local flying school they use the

Diamond Star DA40 (like a carbon fibre cherokee)

130 knots

with

lycoming IO-360 9.5 gph, 570 nm range

Thielert Centurion 1.7 diesel 5 gph, 750 nm range

 

 

 

 

 

[John Slade]

I don't know what Tracy has planned for the Continental, but the EC2 I have for the rotary is NOT totally redundant. There are two power leads which both end up at the same connection. I asked Tracy about this. Unless I misunderstood him, the two computers share one or more components.

 

As for controlling the injectors individually, each computer has a MAP table which you can program to set the mixture at various RPM. I don't think anyone does much "on-the-fly" (pun intended) adjustment other than during the initial tweaking. The MAP table controls the feed to BOTH primary injectors and stages BOTH secondary injectors in when programmed to do so.

[dust]

wellllll, i've thought about it and youuus is all right!

 

I wrote a letter to continental about it and told them they were fools for selling an electronic ignition system for aircraft engines, I also called Klaus at light speed and told him that his system must be junk and that it is obviouse to all that the magneto must be the only way to go and he should stop selling and using electronic ignition on 70 year old engine designs.

 

I don't mind being in the middle of you two groups

 

you is a fool if you don't use a rotary

 

you is a fool if you modify an airplane engine.

 

so i am a fool, thanks for all of the advice and open minded thinking

 

enjoy the build

 

Mike

[dust]

oh dam, i forgot to call tracy cook today and tell him that it is obvious that he doesn't understand the vagarieties of aircraft engines and he must be nuts to think that he can controll ignition, fuel injection and tboost preasure from one of his controllers

 

thanks for straightening me out guys

 

enjoy the build

 

Mike

[No4]

Well I'm sorry you didn't like what we had to say, Dust, but if you are going to ask a question on an open forum...

 

None of us implied these people don't know what they are doing, I'm sure my entire aeronautical knowledge is 1% of these guys.

 

No one said this unit wouldn't work, or that it would not be beneficial to performance.

 

Looking at light speeds product, if their figures are correct, then their system is far superior.

But is it worth up to $3000 just for the ignition?

Does it compare to the cost of new mags?

Is it reliable, is it certified?

How much extra is the fuel injection and wastegate going to be?

 

If you think it's worth it then go for it!

I really hope it works for you.

 

For me that engine is a gas guzzling overpriced antique, and putting this stuff on it is dressing mutton as for lamb.

 

 

 

By the way, not much of a rotary fan either

(lights blue touch paper and slowly retires to a safe distance........)

 

 

Enjoying the dream

 

[LargePrime]

None of us implied these people don't know what they are doing, I'm sure my entire aeronautical knowledge is 1% of these guys.

Didn't you?

It is not that dust doesn't like what you have to say, it's that those who do this every day say this is what will happen if you do.

Dust likes it when 2+2=4

It does with this, all but for a few comments.

Looking at light speeds product, if their figures are correct, then their system is far superior.

But is it worth up to $3000 just for the ignition?

Dust looked at light speed. It’s a great product. But Tracy’s does ignition and fuel injection for 1/3rd the price and includes redundancy.

Dust can sell the used Mag's and other parts and get enough to pay for it all. And save weight.

Is it reliable, is it certified?

I am sorry, which of these did you want?

Seriously, Dust would not consider it if it weren’t reliable. Certified is not required. Light Speed is not certified either.

How much extra is the fuel injection and waste gate going to be?

Tracy's unit is an EFI/ignition controller. It includes both. Dust has to supply the injectors and spark plugs and EGT sensors.

For me that engine is a gas guzzling overpriced antique, and putting this stuff on it is dressing mutton as for lamb.

THE reason I call these lyc-con-asaurous is not cause they are piston engines, it cause they have not put modern controls on these engines. They have limited fuel injection and electronic ignition options and VERY little work have been done to get them there.

You cant argue that there is a huge difference between the latest wiz bang Otto piston motor and a 70 year old lyc-cont. Perhaps some improvement in metallurgy, perhaps some in minor improvements in oiling or other areas. The HUGE improvements have ALL been in the control systems e.g. EFI/ignition and sensors.

[LargePrime]

Originally posted by John Slade

I don't know what Tracy has planned for the Continental, but the EC2 I have for the rotary is NOT totally redundant. There are two power leads which both end up at the same connection. I asked Tracy about this. Unless I misunderstood him, the two computers share one or more components.

As I understand it the computers share all INPUT connections. This means that Both computers take in all sensor input at att times. The switch only changes which computer controlles the outputs i.e. injectors and plugs ect.

That makes a lot of sense to me.

As for controlling the injectors individually, each computer has a MAP table which you can program to set the mixture at various RPM. I don't think anyone does much "on-the-fly" (pun intended) adjustment other than during the initial tweaking. The MAP table controls the feed to BOTH primary injectors and stages BOTH secondary injectors in when programmed to do so.

I dont undertsad what you are saying John. A MAP table for each injector would be controlling the injectors individually. EGT can be an input to the MAP tables. And once the system gets tweaked correctly I dont see much need for screwing with it. I reiterate. This system will allow independant controll of each cylinder. This could/will allow each cylinder to run very close to all the others by modifying the fuel to it individualy.

[No4]

Cheers Largeprime,

I'm afraid that I still can't see what has you two so upset . I've re read my posts. I again take offense at your accusations of my implying these people are clueless. Please no more.

 

I am genuinely interested in discussing this set up, but have had to fish for clues as to what was actualy being considered; and am still not sure. I was initialy surprised that Dust would consider this, as I thought the whole point of choosing a Lyc was for twin mags and all the usual.

 

The original posts are very vague as to what he is planning to install, and it's only on the second page with your last post that you explain the system, and even then it is still murky. Furthermore, in Dust's original post he states that Tracy said the engine is set up on the ground because EGT probes are too unreliable, yet you seem to be stating that each cylinder gets a EGT probe and a MAP gauge.

 

The fuel injection can give this engine no more horsepower as it is already limited by overboost. So that leaves us fuel economy, and smoother running.

 

I have no doubt the engine will run much better with efi. How much fuel it will save, I guess around 2 gallons an hour at the very outside, probably more like 0.5 . My point was that if it costs $7000 to install all this then that would take about 2000 hours or more to pay you back.

 

If however the cost is similar (still no ones told me), and the product is reliable, and it is lighter, then BRILLIANT!, I think it is a great idea, as I previosly stated. The plane sounds a real ripper with the CSU, turbo, and injection.

 

As for reliability, if you trust Tracy then good for you. Sounds like a lot to potentialy go wrong down the track, with all these experimental sensors and actuators sitting in an area of high temperature and vibration. It also puts a greater requirement on the electrical systems reliability. Being amatuer built a simple wiring error could end in catastrophe. You can turn the masters off and still run happily all day with twin mags, a fixed or manual wastegate, and mech injection.

 

I'm sorry if you don't like my opinion.

 

I think the modern engine is quite different internaly to the lyc. Personaly I call it a dinosaur because it has 2 valves a cylinder, pushrods, single camshaft, can't take any boost, vibrates like buggery, is as loud as hell, sucks fuel and oil like it's going out of fashion, has cooling problems, reliability issues, and that's not to mention the ignition or injection.

 

Cheers and Merry Christmas

 

[LargePrime]

I do not believe dust or I are upset. We responded to the ideas with our ideas. I think it is clear people did not see value in this. I think it is also clear that people did not understand what we are saying/suggesting. That’s fine. Group hug and let’s move on.

 

To clarify: What dust is considering is "a black box that controls ignition, injection and turbo control!!!!!!!"

 

The solution might be the EC2 that Tracy sells. It fits great because it allows redundant individual cylinder EFI&I control and some other stuff. In dusts case other stuff being electronic waste gate control to avoid ever over boosting, and EFII intervention if there is a problem with it.

 

Interesting there is an article in the Feb 2004 (this month) pilot or flying on running an engine lean (one of the things dust is looking to do). It seem we are about ready to rediscover a 50 year old idea.

 

The fuel injection can give this engine no more horsepower as it is already limited by over boost. So that leaves us fuel economy, and smoother running.

I disagree (Big surprise). EFI can give both. Better atomization and smoother running allow more HP. I don’t see what over boost had to do with it?

 

As for reliability, if you trust Tracy then good for you.

I know your not suggesting people can’t trust Tracy. Can you see how you suggested that? Tracy builds, sells, and fly’s his own stuff and has for 1400+ hours. Who wouldn't trust that?

 

Sounds like a lot to potentially go wrong down the track, with all these experimental sensors and actuators sitting in an area of high temperature and vibration.

There is nothing experimental "these experimental sensors and actuators sitting in an area of high temperature and vibration." They have done it for BILLIONS of hours. The weakness and strengths are known.

It also puts a greater requirement on the electrical systems reliability. Being amateur built a simple wiring error could end in catastrophe. You can turn the masters off and still run happily all day with twin mags, a fixed or manual waste gate, and mech injection.

read this. Well-built Amateur electrical aircraft systems can and often are the best in the world. And it is neither hard nor expensive.

 

I think the modern engine is quite different internaly to the lyc. Personally I call it a dinosaur because it has 2 valves a cylinder, pushrods, single camshaft, can't take any boost, vibrates like buggery, is as loud as hell, sucks fuel and oil like it's going out of fashion, has cooling problems, reliability issues, and that's not to mention the ignition or injection.

For me, 2 vs. 4 valves, Finger followers vs. pushrods, counting camshafts, is all just more or less of the same. Going from a venturi to a EFI is a revolution. Going from a Mag to a EI controller is a revolution. Not just because they do the job better, but because they give you an extra dimension. They can advance or retard, lean or richen, one cylinder at a time, wisely.

That’s HUGE.

 

Happy Holidays to all.

[No4]

Thanks for taking the time to reply again Largeprime. I was realy surprised by this system.

What is on offer does look very good, with much smoother running apparently.... "starts like a turbine" claims aerosance.

 

The TIO 360 is already capable of churning out more than 220 hp, it's just it is liable to go bang, but I can see that the improved induction, ignition could allow a few extra hp.

 

I still mention that as a fuel saving exercise if it costs $5000 to install, that could buy me 10000 litres of go go juice instead. But from an engineering and performance view point it is excellent.

 

Look forward to seeing it operate in anger!

 

 

[LargePrime]

Tracy's EC2 is about $900. dust will have to reengineer a bunch of stuff to put it on his plane so the cost will vary and won't be related to this mod. As well he can sell the parts he is replacing.

 

Anyway it should be a lot less than 5000$

 

I think the point is he can get power up to 25K and have a more reliable and lighter weight system.

 

This won't be a fadec. It's a cheap modern control system only.