Lynn Erickson

I stored an O-360 on an auto engine stand for two years in central CA with fog, wet hangar and high humidity etc. Covered with blankets, filled with oil, desiccant plugs changed every 4 months, and rotated every couple months (easy to do on an auto stand) it was spotless inside when we pulled a cylinder, inspected it and made photos to sell it. During the winter months I had an oil filled heater from Home Depot under the blankets on low. Not a lot of effort and a perfect storage. Usually it was inverted to keep the cam coated. Good luck!

these are all good ideas but a lot more trouble then you need to go to. fill the engine with shell preservative oil and seal in a plastic bag. and forget it. filled with oil there is no room for oxygen. the little O2 in the bag will react with the oil and not be able to react with the metals. no O2. no corrosion its that simple. this is the way that engine rebuilders and lycoming due it. it does not matter what the humidity is outside the bag if there is none inside the bag.

It's sort of free that I don't have to dish out cash for it but I have to burn some midnight oil doing some programming for guy that just happen to have one laying around for a project he was going to do. It's been laying around in his warehouse for at least 6 mos now.

if the engine is properly preserved and store in a sealed plastic bag it can be stored for many years. if the bag is filled with nitrogen it could last even longer.

Two more "non-engineer" thoughts/questions to add to the fray - probably worth what I paid for my engineering education. ($0.00)

 

1) If the solution is to machine a new, slightly oversized press fit pin, would it make sense to add a shoulder to the inboard end of the pin for retention? (Similar to the artwork in post #32 with the shoulder moved to the inboard end. and sized to fit in the available space at the peak "Infinity" triangle) The pin would then be pressed outward through the press fit hole. The pin geometry progression from inboard (forward) to outboard (aft) would be shoulder, radius, five thou oversized body (for the length of the oversized press fit hole), transition to the standard diameter needed for the ID of the bearing, and finally the retention mechanism which in the case of the original is a slot for a retention ring (and brings me to my next question/thought.)

 

2) The current retention mechanism (which keeps the brace assembly from sliding off the pin) is a special retaining clip. The current clip seems superior to the standard retaiing clip used in years past. If we make the effort to create a new pin, is there another retention mechanism that may offer additional reliability? (e.g. a castle nut and a short threaded section outboard (aft) of the bearing and retaining washer/bushing.)

 

There seems to be great progress here toward a small design change that may prevent future failures. I don't want to take things off course with naive ideas, but thought I'd put these out there just in case eithier made sense to more educated and experienced minds.

 

Phil - LEZ RG project Milwaukee.

some good thoughts but the pin can not be inserted from the inside to the outside because of the angle of the part. see post 5 second picture. the retaining clip used on the sets that I have worked on were both spiral retaining clips. they seemed to be very secure and never had a problem with the clip. I like Waiters idea of putting in a new pin with the retaining pin on the inside of the opening. but I might use a bolt and lock nut instead of a pin just like the retaining bolts used in the control stick system. you could also use a spiral clip just like the outer end

I rigged up a pin puller and was able to "mostly" remove the lower pivot pin. Pressed in is an understatement! Even with the pin puller, it required an awful lot of force to move the pin. I was able extract the pin until it was flush on the forward portion where it protrudes inside the side brace Mount's angle bracket.

 

After seeing how tight and exacting that fit is, I can't imagine how Waiter's pin failed in the way it did AND if even if it had, I'm surprised it came out on its own considering how much force is required to pull that pin versus the type of retention hardware is installed on the aft end. It's nothing but a simple retaining ring and a washer.

 

That method tells me that it's virtually all shear loads and almost no tension loads.

 

I'm curious about elongation of the hole where Waiter's lower pivot pin was.

 

Elongation and a shimmy.. yea... I can see the failure in that case.

Frank, I don't believe the pin is the problem. Because of recent failure and past failures of the inner alignment tube I would recommend that you also check these tubes for cracking and twisting and maybe install a set of steel tubes if it has not already been done.

I am NOT an engineer.

I would question the timing of the deformation of the bore that the pin is pressed into.

Was it the deformation of the bore that caused the pin to fail?

Or, was it the failure of the pin that caused the deformation of the bore?

there is no timing, they have to happen at the same time. in order for the pin to flex the aluminum bore had to deform. and in order for the bore to deform the pin had to flex. unless it was not built to the proper standards, loose hole or undersize shaft. may be just not engineered to take the stress imposed on the parts. I still say the tube is being twisted back and forth by the wheel loads imposed on the outer tube which waiter said was loose and the twist in the inner aluminum alignment tube. the whole system has to work together to prevent twisting which it is clearly not. its not like this is the first one of these to fail. I was there when the same part failed only two flights after the set of gear was overhauled by the factory where it had the new updated aluminum tubes installed. the pin was bent at a 45 degree angle to the gear leg and the tubes on both gear were cracked, one all the way through and one about 3/4 through. when the inner tube cracked through it allowed the tube to twist and the resultant forces of the twisting and the weight on the over center strut ( which is mounted at 45 degrees to the gear leg ) caused the pin to be overloaded and bend. we also found the outer bolts loose after the mishap. after the tubes were replaced with the steel ones these problems seem to be resolved.

Hi All

The Long EZ I just bought has the short big rudders on the winglets. I understand this is of an older design and been replaced with a higher performance version.

 

This triggers the question in my mind. maybe there s other modifications, important mods which might or might not have been carried out.

 

My question, where do I find a list and all the details of modifications that are or were required

 

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

Small detail : I live in Belgium, have no idea if there is an EAA chapter here

 

Thx

Ronny

try this read http://v2.ez.org/2000ways.htm make sure you read the appendix a,b and c

It should keep you busy for a day or two

Norm,

 

 

 

So why did you not ask him/her these questions.

 

It may have escaped your notice, presumably you've been to busy researching thoroughly what your doing, but the O-200 cylinder heads are screwed on.

 

If the leakage is so severe that it is the cause of 400 RPM loss at the top of the RPM range and top of the horsepower curve, I would be most suprised it could be hand started, let alone idle properly.

why would say it won't start? I have seen them not only start on two cylinders but run on two. not much power but they will run all day that way. I have seen many bad valves on flying aircraft. thats how they got to us for the annual, they flew in but did not leave until the valves were redone.

Used Lycoming 360 flywheel, small pulley type which is 1 lbs. lighter than the large style. 149 tooth ring gear has about 50 engine starts, perfect condition. $ 225 shipped

New Saber prop extension for Lycoming 360. 9" long, 7" dia. prop flange for 1/2" bolts. New has been mounted but never flown. $450 shipped

Electroair 4 cylinder ignition system, used 50 hours. comes with the $ 200 lycoming drive gear, $875 shipped

Picture of system

Electroair 4 cylinder ignition system, used 50 hours. comes with the $ 200 lycoming drive gear, $875 shipped

Compare that to a 2 rotor rotary engine producing 200 HP at 290 lbs and now you have more room to work with on those shorted fields.

 

 

you are referring to a motor that you can not even buy if you had the mega bucks they will want for one. I think he is looking for a real world solution to the problem. the 290 lbs. would be great if you did not have to add another 60 lbs. in water oil and radiators to complete the package. not to mention the extra cooling drag caused by all the extra heat these things generate. and then try to fit it all in the back of a long ez.

Engine flange bolt holes are 7/16" as well as propeller bolt lugs.

thats the odd size used on some of the 320''s. most 320's are 3/8". aerobatic cranks use this size. all 360's are 1/2"

I have a some questions regarding Lycoming models used in pusher type aircraft in general:

 

Does Cozy (or pusher type aircraft) generally require left turning engines? What is most commonly used?

 

In the IO-360s, Lycoming offers vertical or horizontal induction; which one is best suited for Cozys? Would the horizontal induction produce more tapered bottom cowling compared to vertical induction that sticks down?

 

TIA,

Robert

360's come in two different types, with a few exceptions the A and C models are 200 hp engines with angled valves and fuel injection mounted on the front ( A model ) or back ( C model ). the B model is 180 hp and has parallel valves and carburetor or fuel injection mounted on the bottom either vertical or horizontal. most of the 360's are right hand rotation and when installed on a pusher require a prop that rotates CCW when looking forward. some of the 360's are left hand rotation, mostly used on twins that have counter rotating engines and when used on a pusher require a CW rotating prop. in some cases the left hand engines are a bit cheaper because they are the odd ball. A few models have solid cranks and can not use a hydraulic CS prop. the best models for a cozy are the B and C models. the lycoming operators manual has some information on the different types of engines and accessories http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/bvpages/lyconingOperation.php

Found the source of my rpm drop-two exhaust valves leaking. Can't believe the engine idled so smoothly in that condition and so left the compression test for the last. Does anyone have cyl head torques for the Continental 0-200 engine and bolt tightening sequence. Also, what should the compression be by the book? Two other cyl. are 90 psi hand propping. Bought an overhaul video but they don't list any specs.

when all else fails red the dam manual. seriously you should have the book before you attempt this. also you need to check compression with a leak down tester, not an automotive type and the readings you should have will be in the book. did I mention that you should have the book.

I have a 6" prop extension and crush plate made by Saber Mfg. for sale. This is the recommended heavier duty prop extension with a 7" diameter prop flange and crush plate for Lycoming O-320 and O-360 engines. It has the SAE-2 prop hole pattern (bolt hole center to opposite bolt hole center = 4.75"). It has been mounted but never flown. There are a few cosmetic scratches but otherwise it is in perfect condition. I'll take the first $275 offered. You can check current prices at http://www.sabermfg.com/

what size are the engine flange bolt holes? 0-320 and 0-360 are different

Hi Guys,

At MT they are quick, just had a quote.

 

Electric constant speed left handed pusher. MTV - 1 - F/LD 158-03

62", two bladed

 

All included, controller, spinner etc etc 7460 euro's (ex VAT)= 11K USD

 

Anybody have any info on this CS prop

 

Thanks

Ronny

if you order one be real careful about the left handed thing. left handed means it is for a pusher configuration using a left rotating engine. this does not mean standard right rotating engine turned around backwards. won't change the price though.

$2800 USD for the 3 blade IVO Magnum prop at IVOPROP

26.7 lbs

Ivo will not sell there prop for use on a Lycoming 4 cylinder

yah, I'm still working on my timing for doing knife trimming..

If you trim the next day when the glass seems to be to hard you can use a heat gun and it will soften it enough to knife trim.

Indeed Mac I do consider myself lucky for being able to fly the Long EZ last weekend

 

As you all know I am struggling with the required length of the runways. In the Pilots Manual I read about two props being used : a cruise prop and a climbing prop. I have a feeling I understand but then again I don't, can somebody please explain me the difference.

 

Should I assume that both props "run" at the same revs ?

Is the climbing prop more effective at lower airspeeds?

 

OK I ll stop guessing please tell me.

Would a different choice of prop help my case? Make the EZ more safe on shorter runways?

WHy is then a Constant Speed prop not to be used?

 

Thanks (and forgive me for abusing this forum with all my questions)

 

Ronny

:) :)

a cruse prop has a higher pitch designed into the blade and will have a higher top speed. the climb prop has a lower pitch blade which allows the engine to run at higher RPM and develop more HP and is made for better acceleration and climb performance. a constant speed is adjustable within a range of pitches but not as efficient as a fixed blade prop. they only cost about ten times as much and weigh about 45 lbs. A CS for a long ez runs about $12,000. A fixed pitch run about $ 800 to $1400

My tire lines up perfectly centered under the strut tube.

 

Waiter

This may seem like a good thing but it may also be the cause of the problem. with the tire centered it means that there is no constant load on the pin but a oscillating load. as the wheel is rolling the load is constantly switching from a left steering load to a right steering load. this would be known as zero scrub radius. in automobiles having zero scrub radius is a no no and will cause wheel shimmy. many other factors can cause this condition of oscillating loads, strut angle forward and aft, wheel toe in or tow out, amount of caster and camber.

a good resource for this information is in a book called

Light gear design for light aircraft by Ladislao Pazmany

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/bvpages/pazmanybooksManuals.php

this is a good book and does explain why most of the design features of this landing gear were not designed to create the most optimum landing gear system.

Please, if possible, I humbly ask that we keep the posts in this particular thread pointed in the direction of solving the technical problem and NOT allow it to degrade into a conversation debating customer service at Infinity or whether or not retractable main landing gear is a good idea or not. Let's try to use this thread as a way to share important information with guys that have already gone down the Infinity Gear path.

 

Considering the recent collapse of Waiter's gear in mind...

 

http://www.canardzone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38241

 

I am seriously concerned about the failure mode. I have been flying this gear an awful lot over the past year. I have made HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of landings in all kinds of conditions. I don't know for sure if I have more landings than most on this gear but I have to be pretty high on that list.

 

To recap:

 

1) The airplane was recently returned to flight status after a 4 year rebuild.

 

2) The airplane had flown roughly 20 hours on this gear system prior to the incident

 

3) Waiter (in his posts) mentioned the first few landings as hard ("carrier") landings.

 

4) Following a test flight, after a normal landing, during taxi back to parking, the right side lower drag brace pin (The only mechanical device in place to secure the gear leg down and locked) failed allowing the right main landing gear leg to fold under the weight of the airplane.

 

5) The lower drag brace pin failed at the location of the drilled vertical hole which is intended to accept the insertion of a roll pin for the purpose of main pin retention.

 

6) As already stated by Waiter, the time of failure occurred while engine was at idle and the airplane was moving at taxi speed and not (Thank God!) during takeoff or landing. It can be assumed that failure of this pin during high speed ground handling and subsequent collapse of a gear leg has the potential of causing a catastrophic situation where the potential loss of the airplane and loss of the crew are greatly increased.

 

Questions I would like to answer:

 

1) When is the pin loaded with stress and how much stress.

 

a) loads during retraction?

b) loads during extension?

 

I am assuming these loads are based on the weight of the landing gear only plus the resistance of the airflow. Aircraft weight not a factor.

 

c) What are the potential loads during ground handling?

 

I am assuming these shear loads are much greater considering the load on the pin must now support the weight of the airplane especially during cross wind operations.

 

2) What direction is the stress applied in relation to the direction of the roll pin. My concern here is based on the fact that (I'm guessing a little) the main pin is drilled 90 degrees to the shear forces being applied at the point of greatest stress (high speed ground transition - cross wind landing)

 

In my mind, the retaining hole in the main pin is oriented in the worst possible direction or would this matter?

 

3) I'm not familiar with the math. How can I calculate the potential load on the main pin based on the weight of the airplane vs the arm location of that pin. In other words.. A fully loaded airplane at 1500 LBS would create X lbs of force on that pin during a side load.

 

4) Would the removal (for inspection) of that pin be an issue if I re installed it with a cotter pin and not the current style roll pin? Would the cotter pin cause any more or less stress on that retaining hole? I would like to assume that the failure of the main pin was detectable and not without warning if the pin could have been inspected for stress cracks.

Flight hours have almost nothing to do with landing gear. you can not rate the success or failure of the system this way. the numbers of landing cycles needs to be considered in the evaluation process.

One factor that also needs to be considered is the flexing of any or all the components and air frame to cause a load on the pin that is not in direct shear. we have seen failures of the internal components that were suppose to keep the outer gear tube aligned with the inner tube. This fact would suggest that there is a twisting load on the inner alignment tube that is caused by the leverage of the wheel axle. This twisting would put a bending load on the pin. this twisting force in both directions could be a cause for the stress failure of the pin since the roll pin hole is aligned with the direction of the bending load on the pin.

Calculating loads on landing gear system would be simple if the loads were all static. the impact and vibrational loads are much more difficult to calculate and the cause of most landing gear component failures. doing a drop test or two is not going to show the same results as many landing cycles. The gear for a certified aircraft would go through thousands of test cycles both simulated and real but in the homebuilt world all the test cycles are real and every test might be the one just before a failure will occurs. I doubt that if you add up the number of landing cycles done on this model of gear you would find that it is much less than a thousand cycles to date.

Lynn;

 

I forgot about McMasterCarr Aircraft Parts Company:rolleyes:

 

 

Waiter

here's a picture

the sticker is for TMann

Lynn;

 

I forgot about McMasterCarr Aircraft Parts Company:rolleyes:

 

 

Waiter

I think more then half the parts in the plane came from them

I used the red plastic knobs for the throttle and canopy latch and smaller black one for the mixture

1" Red knob with 10/32 thread is part # 6146K12

I am looking to purchase the small "standard" aluminum throttle, mixture and carb heat knobs for my Long-EZ.

 

note: I do NOT need the whole throttle quadrant, just the knobs

 

Please call or e-mail me if you have some for sale or know of where I can get a reasonable set.

 

Thank you.

 

Oscar

 

630-660-6258 (cell)

oscarm98@yahoo.com

Mc Master Carr. If they don't have it they don't make it

http://www.mcmaster.com/#knobs/=4kof84

http://www.mcmaster.com/#knobs/=4kog5m