Jason Heath

Hmmm, another one of those easy going off-topic (non-canard) posts.

Since this was posted in the "Coffee House - Easy going discussion about anything you like." under the heading "Commecial Engine Out "..............that was to easy!

Hmmm. I'd say this is off topic and needs to go in Open Discussion.

 

Wooops, we don't have one.

Since this was posted in the "Coffee House - Easy going discussion about anything you like." under the heading "What's your shop's culture? " I'd say YOUR post was off topic, and now, so is mine!!

Easily offended are you?

Nope

Well, as an American, I make it as point to talk about what I want, when I want, where I want..

As a member of this group, you agreed to: "By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws" which forfeits your right to talk out of what you seem to want kissed!

The only thing that has me scratching my head is why we are asked to find two 15" x 2" pieces of 1/8 inch metal (none laying around in MY house... ) for suspending the inserts flush with the face of the shear web foam.

 

Why not bolt a smaller piece of metal to the inserts and sit them flush with the foam surface? (Like was done with the step) What problem is solved by building the "bridge" with the larger pieces of metal across two boards that have to be trimmed to exactly the right height? Seems like a lot of work for no reason.

 

Any thoughts?

The "bridge is there to set the nutplates at the same height and inline with each other through the center line of the canard. After the shear web and reinforcements are layed up, you have to be able to find the hole sagain and the "bridge allows you to do so by putting it back in place over the canard and using it as a drill guide. If you just supported them localy with a smaller something or other, it would just be a WAG where the holes were and the lift tabs would look like buck teeth hanging from the canard when bolted on.

Any suggestions before I drop $100 or the two pieces?

Drew, I have both of those and use them alot to get into tight spaces but only when I'm about to add more glass to the area or certain other things, I wouldn't call what those things do sanding, more like chewing, they'll eat up your work quick if you let them. They are a great addition to the Fein and I wouldn't give mine away, but there not going to do what I think you think there going to do, I think!

 

ok. I'm really just looking for an excuse to buy a new tool!

So your looking for a story to tell your wife in other words:)

¿what is a B port??

 

It's the greenish machine to the right of the fuselage in the picture. http://www.bpt.com/ Unless you are making all your metal parts or just have a thing for cool toys, you won't need one

 

and leave it to Chrissi to be snooping around in other people's garages.

Geesh! Thats getting very expensive for what amounts to some leftover scraps and some small cans of resin and hardener. Maybe somebody here could market a better paractice kit, for a better price. ALSO, you don't need the practice book if you've already got the plans to build (or the Aerocanard download plans Chapter 3).

I don't know if you checked the link I gave, but the price of the practice kit is $79 and you can buy it without the book for $69 but if you haven't spent the $500 for the plans, then the book is invaluable, well, a $10 value :-) It was $49.95 when I bought it so yeah, it's gone up, but what hasn't? I was just curious if the $172 kit had some gold coins or a secret decoder ring that I needed to know about.

 

Actually I was trying to warn anyone that is paying attention, that there is a cheaper kit.

I am generally not all that impressed with the practice kit

For what its worth, I noticed that the Chapter 3 practice kit on the ACS Cozy page Item# 01-00588 was $172.05, that didn't exist when I started my project (mumble) years ago but this did http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/practicekit.php and is half the price. Just curious as to what was included in the more expensive kit as the cheaper of the two has/had eveything needed to do the practice parts?

(don't they make faster glue ).

Actually they do, http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/fourmINUTEePOXY.php but I'm pretty sure that wasn't a question!

 

That's what Edge used on his lawn ornament, but he's pretty quick, just ask his........ohhh you don't really think I'd finish that!

 

Since this thread has nothing to do with building airplanes anymore..........

(hmm, wonder if a ball bearing will cross reference...)

 

Not with the same load rating and ability that you would have if you found a ball bearing with the same OD & ID as the tapered, the CG parts at least address the issue and are a simple fix.

Senior builders, wadda ya say?

Your right, it does, each tow is larger and requires more time, work whatever you want to call it to soak up the resin. All the little bubbles that are rather easy to get out of BID usually need to be chased out the ends of a UNI layup, personaly, I use a roller for that, but you can drive bubbles into the previous layers and/or distort them if not careful. Technic, practice etc.... Try the hair dryer trick next time and see if it helps.

 

edit: BID will use more epoxy per squarefoot than UNI, but you will probably use more epoxy (as you've found out) to get the UNI to wet out.

But I think your real point is that definitely regular progress is being made. So far in the build I'm comfortably working 5-6 days a week and generally a couple hours at a time. I'm happy, the wife's happy, and I'm building a plane!

Drew, now THAT, and your last post, I would have to agree with...................TMann, you on the other hand, I do my best to disagree with! [sigh]

If the process took significantly longer, then I would say it would be questionable. Minus the making of the template, I don't see the time evolved using a router to take any longer than other methods. I made the template 6 months before I started so it took no time away from the build and they are very handy to have for reference and to use for tracing. I have the Fein, but still like this technique for this particular task

While spending plenty of my own time trying to make a perfect part, I've learned as many have, that time can be counted however you want, but it's still time. If using templates and such to make your parts and there perceived quality helps to keep you motivated, cool, but time is time. Personally I count everything as time spent, you can't build an airplane without reading, cleaning, setting up etc. so why try to believe that building a template 6 months ago wasn't part of building?? If I only had an employer as leaniant as you!

 

Yes, I would have to be one of the detractors of this, unless someone want to make a video of the plans method for all to see how EZ it can be so others can decide. While you made a great video and a great looking part, it also LOOKS far more complicated than it should and might scare away some???? Maybe!

Well, I disagree. I went and read all of the stuff that the above links referenced. It seems to me that if you do a normal layup then using peel ply will make the part lighter and more uniform.

I will agree, as most would, that the parts are more uniform, but not that the peel ply WILL make the part lighter. I've used MGS and Ezpoxy so far and while the EZpozy was more difficult to squeegee out before each layer and the peel ply did soak up ALOT that I thought I had removed, the MGS was the opposite. See Below

 

Do a good job of removing the excess epoxy using your squeegee as Mike Melville demonstrates in the Rutan video. For multiple layers, lay the next layer of cloth on, then squeegee and stiple to pull the epoxy UP before adding additional epoxy. Repeat for each layer. Then lay on your peel ply, using a squeegee and/or roller, adding epoxy only to those areas that are obviously dry. The peel ply actually sucks up excess epoxy. I am convinced that peel plying everything makes a nicer part and is not adding excess weight.

......As far as using MGS, For me, it is much easier to remove the excess epoxy PRIOR to each layer of glass, each additional layer will pull very little, almost none of the epoxy from the previous layer so it requires the same amount of epoxy to wet out each layer. So for me, the peel ply has to be treated as another layer of glass and applied in the same fashion. If I were to leave excess epoxy in hopes that the peel ply would soak it up, I WOULD have heavier parts OR I would have dry parts if I didn't do as I do. So, to say that peel ply doesn't add some weight in order to fill the weave and make that nicer part COULD BE dependant on methods and your choice of epoxy, so don't go convincing yourself that peel ply is some magic material that makes parts lighter just yet.

 

I'm also convinced that sanding parts that are not peel ply'd will always remove at least SOME fiberglass before you can get ALL of the shininess removed.

 

That you can go ahead and convince yourself of and I agree, I peel ply eveything so I'm not trying disagree about its use, but it CAN add weight that I'm willing to live with.

 

OH, use the thinnest peel ply you can get away with too.

Peel ply makes it heavier? First I've heard that.

Additional epoxy to fill the weave = more weight, I couldn't tell you how much over the entire plane as it would vary, but it's still more weight.

Can someone explain to me why I should wait until AFTER I put my botom skin on before I put in my hardpoints (HD Foam)?

No....but some folks might not think that far ahead and the jigs may be under the locations where the hardpoints go which may complicate doing so.

Don't you have full length aluminum strips under you canard? Are they in the way?

complicated.......safer

If you could only make those two words play nice with each other, you might be on to something. If you try to remove all the "if's" your speaking of, you create a whole new set of them. The whole compromise thing that any airplane is built on will always create "what if's".

Hans, Look here: http://www.cozybuilders.org/cad_files/ under chapter 19 you'll find John Epplin's contact info at the bottom of this page http://www.cozybuilders.org/cad_files/COZYMKIV_Steel_Wing_Template_Usage.pdf

 

IICR, Normam Muzzy was the keeper of the templates but I don't know of any wing jigs that are available, someone else might.

Besides....... read your regs. He does not have to wear a parachute when performing aerobatics.

Yes Tmann, I was being sarcastic again, the quote below was from the last go round with parachutes which was promptly corrected (again) by Marc. My apologies

..... so then why is it the FARs require you to wear a chute when doing aerobatics?.

Well why the hell do these guys wear parachutes?

Because he is legally suppose to, but you already know that. The pilots quote: "My training and my experience and my background prepared me to do what I did today" as well as the 1000+ jumps that he already has under his belt. Read: http://www.aero-news.net/news/sport.cfm for the news report. That still doesn't answer the bigger question I had a few weeks ago, what happens to your passenger? Flight testing and solo flights, wear one! Flying your friends and family around, not likely.

Since you ask, in my culture such a remark is taken the way it was intended and results a large guffaw from the crowd, and this is a multi-cultural, international forum - not your-culture-only.

And since this is a mult-cultural, international forum, you should not base your remarks on YOUR cultures typical results however you think it was intended.

I've read that chapter nine involves a huge number of hours......

But very few of them have anything to do with the torsional layups. You may be adding to the hours??

 

What do the folks that did it the plans way think of the plans process, is it as much of a bear as I'm thinking it will be, or does it just sound complicated and is easier in practice?.

Much easier, It took me three hours for each set of 4 plys which included cleaning up etc.

 

Anyhow, thoughts? I want to have a nice warm fuzzy before trying it as it's an awfully expensive piece to mess up.

I too had my worries so I just went for it, When I was done I laughed about how EZ it was and kicked myself for waiting as long as I did to do it. IF you think you've screwed up either way, you can still remove the glass from the strut and start over without to much headache.

One thing I learned about those masks, is that between uses the filters should be stored in a plastic ziplock to keep them from getting "used up" sitting on the bench. Anybody know if that's necessary, or how often to change the filters?

Yes, it's necessary and the filter should be changed after 40 hours or 30 days. The problem with MGS is the lack of smell, usually a good indication of needing to change filters is when you can smell the materials your working with through the respirator.

I will use the Ply-9, glove liners and nitrile gloves for the next layup. It's a shame, though, because you can't really feel the quality of the layup with the gloves on as well as you can just using the barrier cream. And the gloves tear easily.

I'm not sure what you mean by feeling the quality of the layup, other than cutting and placing the wet glass, I've never felt up my work I've never had a glove tear when working with glass but remember that ALL gloves have a break through time and if your spending alot of time fondling your layup, your increasing your exposure to the epoxy and tearing.. I usually won't work with a wet pair of gloves for that reason, just change them to continue rolling, stippling, squeegee etc.

I bought a respirator mask, but if I have to wear that to work on the plane then I will have to give up the project.

Here at work, you get one warning for not wearing a respirator, the second time you get a pass to the unemployment office, it's that serious.

And for all that don't know much about respirators, 1.you need an organic vapor respirator 2. they have an expiration date 3. they come in different sizes and beards, mustaches etc. can effect how they work so you should check if they actually seal. 4. Most OV cartridges are good for 40 hours of exposure and come in sealable bags for storage between uses. if you leave it out of the bag, then throw it away after 40 hours cause it's not worth much after that.

This may be a normal reaction when epoxy touch your skin. I won't be taking any chances. The last thing I want/need is to develop a reaction to epoxy.

There is nothing NORMAL about it, as you know, everyone is different and you already HAVE a reaction to epoxy. I've been using the stuff for over 2 years and have absolutely NO reaction like you had and I've managed to get it all over me from time to time and I know that could change. If your reaction was that severe and quick, you may want to wear a respirator and keep your area well ventilated as the vapors COULD cause a similar respiratory problem, hopefully your more sensitive to direct contact and wear goggles/glasses like Jack said.

I'm not the type that normally have problems like this. I don't have any reactions or allergies of any sort.

Congratulations in a bad way, now you know of one.