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flyingclay

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I was riding back from an EAA meeting we had at Central Cylinder here in Omaha. Steve Bennett (Great Plains Aviation) was driving and we were talking about various auto conversions. Steve's company specialized in VW conversions and had been at it for a very long time.

 

He summed it up like this:

If you went into a car dealership and you were looking at a $35,000 vehicle and the salesman told you will have to add  a quart of oil every 4-500 miles and the engine will require a total overhaul at 85K miles, would you consider that to be a good deal?

 

A 200hp Lycoming will cost $35K plus new. I chunked $22K in rebuilding my IO-360-C1C for my Velocity.

Sorry if I'm not sold on the economics of this technology.

 

Like I said, you won't find the support for a water cooled solution here. You'll have to look elsewhere.

If you want to talk to someone who has a working example, Kent mentioned John Slade. You can find him on www.CanardAviation.com

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Excellent progress... I don't do Facebook, so I can't check out your pictures.  My wife has it, so I'll look at the pictures later.  You are building fast....

 

I think rotary engines are really cool (owned 2 RX-7's in the 90's).... and its sweet to see a an EZ or Cozy flying with one installed... "Only 3 Moving Parts!!"

But c'mon... they just don't seem to pan out.  Lets be honest here....

 

Other Rotary Abandonment's:

Bulient Aliev (Buly) - Flying rotary to Lycoming

Rick Russell - Flying rotary (Renesis) to Lycoming

 

Has anybody ever switched from a flying Lycoming to a Rotary (EZ or Cozy)?

The EZ's and Cozy's that fly regularly and go places use airplane engines.

 

If you went into a car dealership and you were looking at a $35,000 vehicle and the salesman told you will have to add  a quart of oil every 4-500 miles and the engine will require a total overhaul at 85K miles, would you consider that to be a good deal?

 

Is this an argument to not buy a rotary engine car?  You just described the typical RX-7 / RX-8.

 

A 200hp Lycoming will cost $35K plus new. I chunked $22K in rebuilding my IO-360-C1C for my Velocity.

Sorry if I'm not sold on the economics of this technology.

I bought my 180HP Lycoming O-360A4M (was currently on a flying RV-9) for $9000.  Its a mid time engine (half way to TBO).  I'll get 1000 hours of it... and there are only a handful of Cozy's that have that many hours in the entire fleet.

 

Its really hard to beat the economics of buying a currently flying mid-time engine (with maintenance records and history).

Brand new experimental 360's are less than $35k... I've seen them recently in the mid 20's.

 

 

 

Like I said, you won't find the support for a water cooled solution here. You'll have to look elsewhere.

 

There used to be a lot of support for alternative (water cooled) both here and on the Van's building forum.... most of that is gone now, as you say.

Edited by Andrew Anunson

Andrew Anunson

I work underground and I play in the sky... no problem

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I'm sure you are also aware of www.Mistal-Engines.com as well, yes?

 

A 200hp Lycoming will cost $35K plus new.

 

www.mistral-engines.com

 

From a 2010 KitPlanes article (the bolding is mine):  "The last time we had a firm price for the engine was in 2006, and that was $35,900 for the 230-hp turbocharged, two-rotor G-230TS and $31,500 for the 190-hp normally aspirated G-190 two-rotor."  I wonder what they charge today for those willing to test?

 

Any and all purpose-built aircraft engines are expensive, some more than others.  Regardless of the engine, even if it were free, you still need to spend significant time and $$$ to get comfortable with it carrying whatever precious cargo.

 

You will not find anything in the way of support here on anything other than Lycoming/Continental and perhaps a couple of other air-cooled solutions,

The popular consensus among the community -- not just here -- is that aircraft engines are best for most to get into the air with. There's more support, parts, and community options for maintaining such engines.

 

The point is, build what YOU want to fly.

Fully agree. It's up to you Les, and feel free to break new ground in the Auto Engine Conversions section of the Powerplants sub-forum here when you're ready.  In the meantime keep up the great progress!


Jon Matcho :busy:
Canard Zone Developer & Builder
Rebuilding Quickie Tri-Q200 N479E
Building Cozy Mark IV+ (widened rear)

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Thanks for all of the input. I just got back from the airport and installed the front on the center spar. I have it all glued up and clapped on the front and weighted down on the back. I drilled 1" holes in the interior bulk heads and grooved out some foam and filled it with micro. I am still waiting for the seatbelt tube before I can finish the seat back support and install the bottom on the fuselage. The plans say to wait three days for the spar to fully cure, I used fast setting mix of epoxy for the micro of the front face, should I still wait three days or can I remove it tomorrow if the micro is cured? I would like to have my table back soon, my back still hurts from yesterdays turtleback layup on the ground. I have a dragonfly, and it first came with an underpowered 1835 VW engine and since I have installed a 3100cc corsair engine that I rebuilt myself with William Wynns parts and manual, I do like working with engines and building but I also like to fly and I know there will be some hurdles to go through with the install of a Rotary, I owned two RX7's in the 90s. I had a first generation in the early nineties and then got the second gen later. I never had a problem with the engine but did have some transmission problems. The engine install is still a ways out and if I can find an aviation engine that is a good value I might install it. In the meantime I am going to build the plane to specs and make it light. I am going to have to take a break on building for the month of June, I will be out of the country and when I return I will get back to it. I am going to go to Oshkosh at the end of July and My airport has the cheapest gas in all of MN, 100ll is 3.99 a gallon right now. If you are going to fly and are coming through this way I would love to talk and see some flying Cozy,Velocity, long eze, or other Rutan derivatives. Again thanks for all the input and Ill keep you posted on my progress.

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I am going to go to Oshkosh at the end of July ......

 

Be sure and drop by the Vacuum Infusion demo while you are there.

We are talking about doing some "hands on" labs to let folks get some experience with the process.

 

In the meantime ...... try the electric blanket trick to maintain proper temperatures during the cure. It still a bit chilly in the northern latitudes and every trick/tip helps.

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I did my last layup for a month. I got the shear web for the center spar done and peel plied yesterday. I will be gone for a month and then when I get back Ill be able to work at it until Oshkosh. I am going to try to make it to the vacuum infusion, and also seeing and harassing all you cozy fliers. The Dritz electric scissors were great at cutting off the excess cloth after glassing the shear web and before peel ply. It is supposed to get to 91 degrees today so I think it should cure well. By the time I get back it should be warm enough that I should not need any more supplemental heat. I still need to do the reinforcements for the turtle back before pulling it from the mold. I am planning on a forward hinge canopy and am wondering if I need to add the headrest support or if I can just use a reinforced strip to keep that area behind the from seats more open. Maybe just a cross piece that will sit on the seat back and a roll over structure. I like what the cozy girls did with their canopy but I would rather have only one seam for water to leak into the cabin. 

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I like what the cozy girls did with their canopy but I would rather have only one seam for water to leak into the cabin. 

 

Good point.  Simplicity is a good thing, to keep the overall effort down, but I'm sure they've thought that through a bit.  It does look quite good.

 

8-16-08.gif


Jon Matcho :busy:
Canard Zone Developer & Builder
Rebuilding Quickie Tri-Q200 N479E
Building Cozy Mark IV+ (widened rear)

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I do like that but like I said I don't think I could do as good of a job as them and I do not think I could keep it from having a leak. I need to get down and see their Cozy. It looks amazing and I think I could learn a lot. Thanks for the photo

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I have returned to the state and have been back to the airport. I finished both spar caps on the center spar. It was 90 degrees on saturday when I did my first and then 87 the next. It took over 6 hours for the bottom layup with having the glass cut and ready to go. It took 9 hours on sunday including cutting the glass. I need some advice. I must have sanded the trough to much and now have a depression in a couple spots. How should I put the 4 plies of uni over the caps? should I fill first? should I sand down the lip of the drought and glass over and fill later? I am a bit lost on my nest step. I did install the hard points for the seatbelt and cut out the two access holes. I have also finished the seat back support and am getting ready to attach the bottom of the fuselage. Any and all help with the spar issue would be greatly appreciated. I do not want to do something that I have to scrap all the work that I already did.

 

Thanks and hope to see you at Oshkosh.

 

by the way my home airport has 100LL for 3.99 a gallon. JYG St. James MN and I will be there until saturday before oshkosh and back on thursday after I return from Oshkosh.

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I would just put the 4 UNI layers over the depression unless it's huge.  Even a 1/8" depression is nothing to fret about, IMO.  You can fill it in the finishing stage.  

 

You might get better/different advice if you post some pictures.


-Kent
Cozy IV N13AM-750 hrs, Long-EZ-85 hrs and sold

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I don't have pics yet. I can get them when I go to the airport tomorrow. It is on the top side of the spar, it is probably about 3/16 of an inch or so. I don't think the glass will lie flat unless I sand down a bit of foam and then apply micro in finishing stages. Or could I apply a bit of fox over the spar cap and then it would allow the glass to lay over the spar. I am not sure which would be the best solution. I think adding fox would be heavier and I already applied one extra layer of glass on the top spar cap and adding more would just add weight. I think that adding micro when finishing would be the best way to go but it still would not solve how to get the glass to lay over the ridge from sanding too deep. Thanks for the response and I hope that this might clear it up a bit until I can get pics.

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Yep, just taper the foam to make a smooth transition. I wouldn't put flox down and glass over the flox. It will take more filler in the finishing stage but I would guess the structure will be just as strong and filler is lighter than flox.


-Kent
Cozy IV N13AM-750 hrs, Long-EZ-85 hrs and sold

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Kent, I went ahead and tapered the foam to match the spar cap and did the layup and it worked fine. I also installed the seat back support and tomorrow I should be able to finish the spar and possibly install the bottom on the fuselage. It was a long hot day and I was glad to get this portion done.

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You're a worker bee! Hope you can keep it going.


-Kent
Cozy IV N13AM-750 hrs, Long-EZ-85 hrs and sold

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I got the fuselage bottom attached and a few of the glass layups but the flox started hardening and I could no longer apply tapes. I also got the aluminum hard points floxed to the spar and then the thunderstorm came and I had to call it quits. It is pouring rain here and the thunder and lightning is awesome. There are tornado warnings north or the st. James airport and I did't want to wait around for it to start with the hanger door wide open. I will try to get the layups on the fuselage bottom and final layups on the spar tomorrow. It is coming but I wish it wasn't so hot and the days were longer. You can't have everything. Looking forward to oshkosh, hope to see a bunch of cozy's there.

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My center spar is finished. I learned that if you do not want to have to sand a bunch of epoxy you must tape off areas that are done. The spar has a bunch of drips from applying the two front plies and I had to sand a bunch but it doesn't look as pretty as I would like. I finished up taping the inside of the fuselage and am going to start working on the naca duct and forming the outside. I will only have tomorrow to work and then heading to Oshkosh. I haven't seen anybody stop by to fuel up on their way to oshkosh yet but I hope to see some people stop in tomorrow. Will be back to work on thursday after oshkosh and will still be watching for canards going home.

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After returning from Oshkosh, I was able to get out to the airport and I have finished contouring the bottom and the NACA duct. I got to meet a bunch of canard builders and fliers and sit in a cozy with the Cozy girl strakes and one without. I also got to try hot-wiring and got a bunch of tips and tricks from Randi, one of the cozy-girls. I used my permagrit sanding forms and they are well worth the money and should last forever. I will add some pics to my build log soon.

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I have got the exterior glassed, I wasn't able to get the glass to bend around f22 on the bottom and the right side. I think I might add two bid tapes that will fit in the depression for the front cone. I do not think this will fill the area and I should still be able to add the glass that will fit and give me the strength on f22. I rounded over the left side a bit more and was able to get it to lay down without bubbles. I will round these other edges a bit more before glass taping and hopefully not get the bubbles under the glass. Does this sound like a reasonable fix? I will wait to hear if this should work or if I should try matching this with the same amount of uni that was on the bottom and sides. Should I use three layers of bid on the side and two on the bottom? Any and all info would be greatly appreciated. I am looking forward to being able to sit inside the fuselage and make plane noises.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Les

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Hmmm, not sure the outside glass needs to wrap over the f-22. Chapter 7, p 5, figure 23 has a small "knife trim" note.


-Kent
Cozy IV N13AM-750 hrs, Long-EZ-85 hrs and sold

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Kent,

The plans say, in Step 3: Glassing the Bottom, "The bottom layup should extend down one inch onto F-22 the landing gear bulkhead and firewall." I thought it also had the same for the sides, but I can not find it. I did glass one side but not the bottom as quoted. Should I not worry about the other side and just glass the bottom lip of F-22? Is the bottom more important than the sides? This is where the canard attaches and I think a little extra would not hurt but I am not an engineer.  It is all peel plied and it would not take much to add the tapes and peel ply, it would be a mechanical bond but would still be stronger than not adding anything. What do you think? I was able to get the plies to lay down and extend further on the landing gear bulkhead and firewall so I know that is strong but the canard is what is holding me up in the front of the plane and I do not want that to fail. Thanks again for all the help.

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Well, the UNI on the bottom is at an angle to F-22 so it will wrap a bit easier. On the sides it's perpendicular so it'd be harder to make it lap and lay down. That might be one reason for the difference. Also the loads are tending to separate the bottom, f-22, and nose so maybe the wrap on the bottom adds a little strength. That's my guess.


-Kent
Cozy IV N13AM-750 hrs, Long-EZ-85 hrs and sold

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Kent,

The plans say, in Step 3: Glassing the Bottom, "The bottom layup should extend down one inch onto F-22 the landing gear bulkhead and firewall." I thought it also had the same for the sides, but I can not find it. I did glass one side but not the bottom as quoted. Should I not worry about the other side and just glass the bottom lip of F-22? 

The plans tell us how to fix this in Chapter 3 "Quality Control Criteria".

You should try to get it back to the way the plans specify the layups.... the 3 side layups don't wrap around F22, the two bottom plies do.  

 

Do not use BID tapes for this repair, use UNI.  How about this...

 

 

1.)  Sand the the bottom front edge of F22 to a rounded edge so the bottom UNI will wrap around with no bubbles.

2.)  Fair back (sand away) the cured UNI near F22 at a rate of 1 inch per ply of glass (like the Quality Control Criteria in Chapter 3).

3.)  Apply a UNI ply at 30 degrees to centerline, overlapping the bottom UNI by around 1 inche and wrapping on to the forward face of F22.

4.)  Apply a second UNI at the opposite 30 degrees to centerline, overlapping the bottom UNI by 2 inches and wrapping on the forward face of F22.

5.)  Sand away any side plies that are on the front face of F22, they don't need to be there.  Or leave them... (but I would make it right by cutting them away or sanding them away).

 

This is an easy repair... might not be your last :)


Andrew Anunson

I work underground and I play in the sky... no problem

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Thanks for the reply. I could not do any glass today because it was too cold. I did sand the gear legs with the belt sander and also cut the uni for the layups. I cut out the landing brake and fabricated the wood parts and will be ready to do the lay ups when it warms up again. Andrew, I will do what you suggested. I will probably leave the side that is wrapped and not wrap the other but will do the bottom. I hope I will not have to do repairs in the future, but I probably will. I am glad that almost everything is repairable but I would rather have it right the first time. I still have it on the rotisserie and have not got to sit in it yet. It will come. 

 

Thanks again,

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The landing brake on my Cozy has warped a bit from the mechanism pulling in the center of the panel. I think it halps to make a full-length hinge.


-Kent
Cozy IV N13AM-750 hrs, Long-EZ-85 hrs and sold

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