Electric noselift and NG-30 hard points

[Phil Kriley]

I have Jack Wilhelmson's noselift kit, and it's pretty neat but would be so much better if a drawing of NG-51 existed either in his plans or in the Cozy plans. This is needed so that you know where to put the hardpoints and are not making unneeded hardpoints as well. I'm hoping I got mine close enough that I will not have to cut up my NG-30's to make new hardpoints...

 

On the subject of the hard points - they end up being "cup shaped" because the 15 layers of BID do not completely fill up the holes. This is even evident in the drawings in the plans.

 

So my question is - do you fill them up with flox? As it is, the washers called out in the plans bridge the hardpoints, leaving a hollow area under them - that doesn't seem right, but I'm no engineer...just a poor guy trying his best to follow the plans...

 

Any guidance would be appreciated! TIA!

[Kent Ashton]

The depression should not be a problem. The plans imply that the 15 BID layers and the 4 ply outside skin are all done together and weighted for cure. I suppose the drawing is just reflecting that the weight will compress them a little and leave a depression. Might even help to prevent the hard points from moving under load.

[Phil Kriley]

The depression should not be a problem. The plans imply that the 15 BID layers and the 4 ply outside skin are all done together and weighted for cure. I suppose the drawing is just reflecting that the weight will compress them a little and leave a depression. Might even help to prevent the hard points from moving under load.

 

I did the layup as stated in the plans, and weighting the layup for cure did not even touch the center of the hardpoints. They simply do not fill up the hole, and so my hardpoints are like little "dishes" - just like the drawing in the plans.

 

It just seems odd to me that the other drawing shows the washer inside the hardpoint "cup" and flat on the bottom of the hardpoint. I could use smaller washers and do the same, or fill the "cup" with flox to avoid the gap under the "bridge". That might make the bolts too short, though...

[TMann]

I used 1/4 inch phenolic for these. Floxed into the 1/4 inch foam prior to the glass layups it ends up real smooth.

[Phil Kriley]

I used 1/4 inch phenolic for these. Floxed into the 1/4 inch foam prior to the glass layups it ends up real smooth.

I considered doing that since I had a piece of phenolic that I was not going to use. Did you taper the sides? I figured that if I tried to cut the 1/4" phenolic circles at an 45 degree angle it would be hard to do, but if I didn't do it then there might be a shear condition with straight sides...?

 

Anyway, I already cut the 90 little bid circles, so I'm hoping I will not have to do these over. I just have to decide if I want to use the larger washers with flox under them or use smaller washers that will actually fit in the hard point depressions.

[TMann]

Did you taper the sides?

I did not taper the phenolic. I did taper the foam so I could get a good flox joint where they meet.

[Richard Schubert]

I used phenolic as well.

You want the washer in full contact with the hardpoint.

If you want to come down and see how I have mine installed, drop me a line

mephit@att.net

[Phil Kriley]

Here's a picture of mine, showing (I hope) the cupped shape.

[Kent Ashton]

The only problem I can see is that the washers might "cup" if they're not flat against the hardpoint and allow the bolts to loosen. I would bolt them up with some flox underneath (wax the washer or use saran underneath) or add a few layers of wet BID to build them up. Either ought to provide a flat surface. Retighten after the flox or BID has cured.

 

I don't recall any history of these hardpoints failing so doing nothing is probably OK too.

[Phil Kriley]

The only problem I can see is that the washers might "cup" if they're not flat against the hardpoint and allow the bolts to loosen. I would bolt them up with some flox underneath (wax the washer or use saran underneath) or add a few layers of wet BID to build them up. Either ought to provide a flat surface. Retighten after the flox or BID has cured.

 

I don't recall any history of these hardpoints failing so doing nothing is probably OK too.

That makes sense. Once I determine the location of the holes for the electric retract supports I'll adjust the hardpoints as necessary and fill them up so they are flush with the surface of the NG-30's. Thanks for the replies!

[TMann]

Once I determine the location of the holes for the electric retract supports ......

Phil, The holes for the NG30 are per plans. The kit is designed as a retrofit so you line up the bottom forward hole with that of the plate Jack sends you and from there determine where to drill the remaining 3 holes in the plate.

[Phil Kriley]

Phil, The holes for the NG30 are per plans. The kit is designed as a retrofit so you line up the bottom forward hole with that of the plate Jack sends you and from there determine where to drill the remaining 3 holes in the plate.

YAHBUT...the locations for the holes are NOT in the plans. That's the big frustration. They ain't there. Best you can do is take a SWAG and hope you are close.

 

Take a look at the plans. If there was even a drawing of NG-51 this would have been easy.

[TMann]

YAHBUT...the locations for the holes are NOT in the plans.

Wow! That sucks. That's all plotted out in the Long-EZ.

Download the Long-EZ template PDF as a reference. I can't speak to the differences between that and a Cozy.

[Marc Zeitlin]

YAHBUT...the locations for the holes are NOT in the plans.

Of course they are. How could anyone ever build the NG-30's if they weren't? How would you know where to put the hardpoints and recesses? Look on the M-drawings, as indicated in the plans - M10, M11 and M19. You may not have dimensions, but you certainly have locations.

[Phil Kriley]

Of course they are. How could anyone ever build the NG-30's if they weren't? How would you know where to put the hardpoints and recesses? Look on the M-drawings, as indicated in the plans - M10, M11 and M19. You may not have dimensions, but you certainly have locations.

My best guess is that folks are using their NG-51's to locate the holes/hardpoints. All of the holes are not there, as numerous other builders have had the same question.

 

When I searched the archives I found this from you, in reply to another builder:

 

"My measurements show that the fourth hole (the lower one closer to F-22

on the pilot's side of the fuselage) is approximately 4" forward of the

rear surface of F-22 at a distance of 2-5/8" from the upper hole. It's

NOT directly below the upper hole, but slightly in front of it. If you

make a 2-5/8" circle around the upper hole and then intersect it with a

line perpendicular to F-22 at 4" from the rear surface, you've got it."

 

So that's what I used to approximate the location for that hardpoint. I'll drill the actual hole after the assembly is complete. With some luck it will be within the hardpoint.

 

I'll look at M-19 - I haven't looked at that one yet - but M-10 and 11 do not show where the middle hole for Jack's mount needs to be.

[argoldman]

My best guess is that folks are using their NG-51's to locate the holes/hardpoints. All of the holes are not there, as numerous other builders have had the same question.

 

When I searched the archives I found this from you, in reply to another builder:

 

"My measurements show that the fourth hole (the lower one closer to F-22

on the pilot's side of the fuselage) is approximately 4" forward of the

rear surface of F-22 at a distance of 2-5/8" from the upper hole. It's

NOT directly below the upper hole, but slightly in front of it. If you

make a 2-5/8" circle around the upper hole and then intersect it with a

line perpendicular to F-22 at 4" from the rear surface, you've got it."

 

So that's what I used to approximate the location for that hardpoint. I'll drill the actual hole after the assembly is complete. With some luck it will be within the hardpoint.

 

I'll look at M-19 - I haven't looked at that one yet - but M-10 and 11 do not show where the middle hole for Jack's mount needs to be.

Phil, I may be talking totally out of my landing gear here, since it has been a couple of years since I mounted Jack's gear, but I think that using the original holes, for the manual gear, you locate the additional holes using the aluminum bracket that holds the motor assembly. Using this technique, you can locate the holes and do your hardpoints before assembling the box structure. Just make sure that when you do assemble the box that you first bolt, with spacers from one side to the other so that the holes on each side of the box are in proper relation to each other.

 

I used this same technique, once I drilled my landing gear bulkheads using the wood 90 degree guides, before glassing them in. I made aluminum rods, tapped at each end, the exact length as I wanted the spacing to be, and glassing into the fuselage was a simple matter of taking both bulkheads (connected by these rods), leveling and squaring the whole mechanism and then bonding it in place See attached pictures (If I can get them to work). Makes life and alignment easy.

[Phil Kriley]

Phil, I may be talking totally out of my landing gear here, since it has been a couple of years since I mounted Jack's gear, but I think that using the original holes, for the manual gear, you locate the additional holes using the aluminum bracket that holds the motor assembly. Using this technique, you can locate the holes and do your hardpoints before assembling the box structure.

 

No, you can't, because you only have ONE known hole, and that is the bottom one on the bracket, or the second one from the bottom of the NG-30, being that the first is not used. With only one hole, the bracket can pivot in an arc, and there is no way I can see to figure where within that arc the final hole will end up being.

 

Just make sure that when you do assemble the box that you first bolt, with spacers from one side to the other so that the holes on each side of the box are in proper relation to each other.

 

I used this same technique, once I drilled my landing gear bulkheads using the wood 90 degree guides, before glassing them in. I made aluminum rods, tapped at each end, the exact length as I wanted the spacing to be, and glassing into the fuselage was a simple matter of taking both bulkheads (connected by these rods), leveling and squaring the whole mechanism and then bonding it in place See attached pictures (If I can get them to work). Makes life and alignment easy.

Thanks for the reply, but the issue is figuring out where to put the hardpoint for the 4th hole, since it is NOT in the plans. Even with Jack's mount in hand, you still don't know where the 4th hole needs to be until you assemble the parts - and you really can't assemble the parts until you make the hardpoints and complete the glass work.

 

There's just no good answer to this problem - it's kinda circular. Don't know where to put the hardpoint until it's assembled, but can't assemble until the glasswork is done, but the glasswork can't be done until you have the location of the 4th hardpoint...

 

I'm almost ready to put it together, so with luck my guestimate for that elusive 4th hardpoint (only 3 of which are needed) will be good enough and I won't have to do a patch job.

 

But if it's off, then I'll make the repair and quit *****ing about it.

 

If I had built the manual gear extension and then done a retrofit of the electic gear we wouldn't be having this discussion apparently.