Waiter Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 I changed the oil today. Also cleaned the fuel filters and replaced the engine driven fuel pump (was having fuel pressure problems) Went out for a 30 minute flight, everthing looked OK. (bad Day) As I was taxing back in, the final turn to my hangar row, All the suden, the plane dipped on the right side, and I heard the hydraulic pump kick on. My first thought was the gear was attempting to retract,, but this wasn't true, the Down pump was running. As right side went down, the prop ground into the pavement (it was at idle). I shut everything down and got out of the plane. A quick inspection confirmed my fears, The right gear had collapsed. :( A couple guys came out of the Hangar to see what happened and check to see if I was OK, I was. We gathered up some help, put the plane on a trailer and took it to my hangar. Upon closer look, the culprit was the pivot pin on the gear leg that supports the lower side brace had broken. This pin is pinned to the gear strut. it had broken where it was pinned. The right wing tip has cosmetic damage (little sanding and paint). The prop is destroyed. ******************************** OK, Now the Good news. This failure was going to happen, and there wasn't anything I could have done to prevent it. With that in mind; 1) This didn't happen on the runway while landing or takeoff. This could have been very, very bad, with a good chance of destroying the plane, and possibly fatal. 2) It didn't happen at a remote field. It happen less than 200 ft from my hangar, at very low speed and the engine at idle 3) I had determined that I need to order new prop blades that are cut just a little more course. I had been mauling this over for about two weeks. Well, I guess I can now order the new blades. I was reviewing my performance data with another pilot, I had determined that at cruise, my prop was now operating at the cruise end stop for 2300 rpm. (I used to be able to select as low as 1900 rpm, but can't do it now.) This is caused by the plane being faster and cleaner, the prop blades need to be a little bit more course during cruise. ***************** I'll Call JD Monday and ask him if he has any recommendations on how to repair/replace the lower pin. If your lower side brace pin is secured by a roll pin, you may want to follow this thread, as this may effect you. Waiter Quote F16 performance on a Piper Cub budget LongEZ, 160hp, MT CS Prop, Downdraft cooling, Full retract visit: www.iflyez.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge 513 Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Glad you are okay John. Sometimes the shiz just hits the fan. Its always great to see the glass as half full. Youll be flying soon enuf. Quote Self confessed Wingnut. Now think about it...wouldn't you rather LIVE your life, rather than watch someone else's, on Reality T.V.? Get up off that couch!!! =) Progress; Fuselage on all three, with outside and inside nearly complete. 8 inch extended nose. FHC done. Canard finished. ERacer wings done with blended winglets. IO540 starting rebuild. Mounting Spar. Starting strake ribs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waiter Posted November 7, 2009 Author Share Posted November 7, 2009 Plane traveled about 3 feet after the right gear collapsed. Pin Failure where roll pin secures the main pin Quote F16 performance on a Piper Cub budget LongEZ, 160hp, MT CS Prop, Downdraft cooling, Full retract visit: www.iflyez.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMann Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Waiter, was that the same side you were having trouble with the alignment withthe wheel well? Quote T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18 Velocity/RG N951TM Mann's Airplane Factory We add rocket's to everything! 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mplafleur Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 And what is JD's long term fix for this? Quote Mike LaFLeur - Cozy MkIV #1155N68ML Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynn Erickson Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Plane traveled about 3 feet after the right gear collapsed. Pin Failure where roll pin secures the main pin So, Glad to see you are all right. sorry to see what happened. I had been hoping that you had modified every thing necessary to keep those gear flying. I am sure you will come up with a good way to modify the link so that won't happen again. This pin has failed before on other aircraft and has been reported about on this forum but if one does not do a good search they may not have known that this was a potential problem. There should be a thread where all the mods done to this type of gear could be documented but not debated. all the facts in one place that are easy to find. this would be in the interest of safety with just the facts from first hand experience with the method of repair or modification employed. Quote Evolultion Eze RG -a two place side by side-200 Knots on 200 HP. A&P / pilot for over 30 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Steve Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Waiter: Sorry to hear about your gear problems. Canards are more fun to fly than to fix. This incident has made me really realize how glad I am that I decided to stay with fixed gear on my plane one less thing to worry about. Hope the fix does not take to long. STeve building on Quote Steve Harmon Lovin Life in Idaho Cozy IV Plans #1466 N232CZ http://websites.expercraft.com/bigsteve/ Working on Chapter 19,21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waiter Posted November 7, 2009 Author Share Posted November 7, 2009 Waiter, was that the same side you were having trouble with the alignment withthe wheel well? No, I had the alignment problem months ago. There is a roll pin inserted through to capture the pin Its where the roll pin passes through is where the pin failed. I'll get it off the trailer and back onto jacks this morning and be able to ge a better look at think. As I said, I must have gardian angles looking out for me, by all rights, this pin should have failed on touchdown. Lynn, I'll add a page to my site for these "Unapproved" safety mods Waiter Quote F16 performance on a Piper Cub budget LongEZ, 160hp, MT CS Prop, Downdraft cooling, Full retract visit: www.iflyez.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waiter Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 Talked to JD last night; He said this is the first time he's seen this pin fail like this. He had a couple thoughts on a repair, I'll be looking at these over the next couple weeks. I got the plane up on jacks over the weekend and was able to prform a closer inspection. Airframe damage is minimal, paint and filler on the wingtip. The lower gear door brackets were bent, we did this placing it on the trailer. (I raised the other gear so we could get it to rest on the trailer.) Waiter Quote F16 performance on a Piper Cub budget LongEZ, 160hp, MT CS Prop, Downdraft cooling, Full retract visit: www.iflyez.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMann Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Talked to JD last night; He said this is the first time he's seen this pin fail like this. He had a couple thoughts on a repair, I'll be looking at these over the next couple weeks. John .... sounds as though you are on the mend! Please post your resolution when it comes time. I'm going to take a closer look at mine. While it appears that there is a place for a roll pin, I'm not sure there actually is one. I'll look and get back to you. This pin has failed before on other aircraft and has been reported about on this forum but if one does not do a good search they may not have known that this was a potential problem. I must not be doing a 'good search' because I'm just not finding any posts indicating this is a pre-existing conditon. Can anyone help direct me to this information? I have a set of this gear in-house to work with while I await the arrival of my new set. If this is a problem I would like to address it now but I want to be sure it is an actual problem. Quote T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18 Velocity/RG N951TM Mann's Airplane Factory We add rocket's to everything! 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waiter Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 I searched around a little and couldn't find any other references to this failure!! Anyway - Anybody hear from the CozyGirrrls lately? I want to talk to them about a couple approaches to this repair. Waiter Quote F16 performance on a Piper Cub budget LongEZ, 160hp, MT CS Prop, Downdraft cooling, Full retract visit: www.iflyez.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynn Erickson Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 John .... sounds as though you are on the mend! Please post your resolution when it comes time. I'm going to take a closer look at mine. While it appears that there is a place for a roll pin, I'm not sure there actually is one. I'll look and get back to you. I must not be doing a 'good search' because I'm just not finding any posts indicating this is a pre-existing conditon. Can anyone help direct me to this information? I have a set of this gear in-house to work with while I await the arrival of my new set. If this is a problem I would like to address it now but I want to be sure it is an actual problem. I hope JD has solved this problem but why would he if he is in denial that it has even been a problem. if he has changed it on the new models, thats great, but why would he make a change if you knows there is not a problem. post # 15, bottom of page http://www.canardzone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6268&highlight=infinity+gear Quote Evolultion Eze RG -a two place side by side-200 Knots on 200 HP. A&P / pilot for over 30 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMann Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Yeah .... I saw that post Lynn but I can't count that as factual. That's kind of a "I heard a guy say that he heard a guy say ........" I think it becomes an issue of credbility at this point. It could also be that there was a modification performed at some point. Like I say, I need to check my set but even that may not shed any light on this issue due to the fact that it's a 2nd gen set. While it appears that there is a place for a pin to go through, JD told me they are not pinned but pressed in. Was that in response to a problem? I don't know. Did the previous owner of Waiter's gear drill it thinkiing it was necessary? I don't know. I think I'll stick with the experiences of folks that own the gear. They seem to be a bit more objective. Quote T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18 Velocity/RG N951TM Mann's Airplane Factory We add rocket's to everything! 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waiter Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 Lynn, Was this the same pin (Lower)? and did it fail in the same way (broke at the roll pin)? I know there was a lower pin that failed after the owner modified it. (Didn't use retaining clip, instead, drilled the pin and installed a home made cotter pin (nail!)). Waiter Quote F16 performance on a Piper Cub budget LongEZ, 160hp, MT CS Prop, Downdraft cooling, Full retract visit: www.iflyez.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynn Erickson Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Lynn, Was this the same pin (Lower)? and did it fail in the same way (broke at the roll pin)? I know there was a lower pin that failed after the owner modified it. (Didn't use retaining clip, instead, drilled the pin and installed a home made cotter pin (nail!)). Waiter the pin that connects the link to the arm that is welded to the gear leg. yours are welded ? a pin bent on a landing when the arm came loose at the glue joint to the tube. the tube twisted and caused the pin to bend. the original pins where replaced after the gear was welded by JD to the factory type and then during a landing the pin broke about half way through and bent. the break started at the roll pin hole. it was replaced with a fine thread bolt and a short castle nut with cotter pin. Bill had two sets of strut tubes and these pins where a problem on more then one occasion. Quote Evolultion Eze RG -a two place side by side-200 Knots on 200 HP. A&P / pilot for over 30 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMann Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 the pin that connects the link to the arm that is welded to the gear leg. yours are welded ? a pin bent on a landing when the arm came loose at the glue joint to the tube. the tube twisted and caused the pin to bend. the original pins where replaced after the gear was welded by JD to the factory type and then during a landing the pin broke about half way through and bent. the break started at the roll pin hole. it was replaced with a fine thread bolt and a short castle nut with cotter pin. Bill had two sets of strut tubes and these pins where a problem on more then one occasion. How did those pins hold up when they wrapped the chains around the gear to pull it out of the pond? This is the same airplane isn't it? Quote T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18 Velocity/RG N951TM Mann's Airplane Factory We add rocket's to everything! 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynn Erickson Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 How did those pins hold up when they wrapped the chains around the gear to pull it out of the pond? This is the same airplane isn't it? yes it is and the pins that were that broken are pins that were replaced after the tubes were rewelded, the pins removed and inspected by the factory. so I guess the pins are strong enough to be used to remove an aircraft from a pond just not strong enough for landing loads while using the aircraft flight. Quote Evolultion Eze RG -a two place side by side-200 Knots on 200 HP. A&P / pilot for over 30 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMann Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 yes it is and the pins that were that broken are pins that were replaced after the tubes were rewelded, the pins removed and inspected by the factory. so I guess the pins are strong enough to be used to remove an aircraft from a pond just not strong enough for landing loads while using the aircraft flight. Did those same pins hold up for the off field landing on the interstate (and the trip that followed through the ditch)? That is the same aircraft, correct? I'm just trying to get a feel for how much abuse they will take. Are all the failures you are citing basd on this same aircraft? Quote T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18 Velocity/RG N951TM Mann's Airplane Factory We add rocket's to everything! 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynn Erickson Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Did those same pins hold up for the off field landing on the interstate (and the trip that followed through the ditch)? That is the same aircraft, correct? I'm just trying to get a feel for how much abuse they will take. Are all the failures you are citing basd on this same aircraft? using accident data to determine the strength of a part is not a valid way to to do this. we have no idea of the loads on the pins while there were loads on some of the parts high enough to remove the gear assemblies from the aircraft. the pins in the aircraft during the accident were not stock pins and no they did not bend. Quote Evolultion Eze RG -a two place side by side-200 Knots on 200 HP. A&P / pilot for over 30 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waiter Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 Lynn, As I understand it, the original pin bent. The bent pin was then replaced at the factory. The new replacement pin then broke at roll pin hole. Very Interesting!!!!!! Anyway, I'll most likely perform a repair similiar to the one Ortell did, use a bolt. I'll also replace the left side so its the same (remove the pin and install a bolt). Regardless of the use/abuse of this pin, I just can't concieve it failing in this manner. Anyway, JD recommended the bolt concept as the repair. Waiter Quote F16 performance on a Piper Cub budget LongEZ, 160hp, MT CS Prop, Downdraft cooling, Full retract visit: www.iflyez.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMann Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 using accident data to determine the strength of a part is not a valid way to to do this. Well .... no, it's not the best way to determine normal loads however it is perhaps a good way to determine how the gear stands up to abnormal loads. we have no idea of the loads on the pins while there were loads on some of the parts high enough to remove the gear assemblies from the aircraft.Yes, I supose that hitting a truck on the interstate in the process of performing a forced landing due to fuel starvation might damage the landing gear (as well as a few other things.) I'm just trying to keep this in perspective as to what kind of history this particular example had behind it. I mean that if your experience is based on an aircraft that lands in ponds and ditches, perhaps a set of fixed gear would have been a better choice. The pins in the aircraft during the accident were not stock pins and no they did not bend. Not stock? Where did they come from? If the gear was sent back to the factory to be repaired after it went into the pond and after the damage was caused by wrapping the chains around the legs to extract it, what costs were incurred by the owner for these repairs? This would be good to know in case I were to experience similar damage. Quote T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18 Velocity/RG N951TM Mann's Airplane Factory We add rocket's to everything! 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Limo EZ Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Waiter, Sorry to see what happened. Glad to see you were not hurt. These planes are never done. I am confident after you get done with the system it will be bomb proof. Joe Berki Limo Ez engine work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longez360 Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 I'd like to reflect Joe's sentiments, Waiter. Glad you are OK and your beautiful aeroplane is repairable. These aircraft are never done! Just when I thought my aircraft was going better than ever, and I had some system stability, I had my 4th LSE Plasma ignition failure in 110hrs on the weekend. Thought I had the system stabilised after the first 3 failures (electrical components failed mechanically) in the first 6hrs TTAF&E. I can't comment on the failure mode yet, it could be anything including something dumb I may have done. My gut however is telling me it's a bad coil. Best advice I ever had was: "Ya'll be careful out there." Quote Cheers, Wayne Blackler IO-360 Long EZ VH-WEZ (N360WZ) Melbourne, AUSTRALIA http://v2.ez.org/feature/F0411-1/F0411-1.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMann Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Hey Waiter, I talked with JD last night for about a half hour. He went through the history of the gear and why things were done the way they were, etc. He also knew a lot about the history of the used pair that I have here. Bottom line is I'll be updating this set to include the changes he has made to the design as each generation has been manufactured. I plan to use this set to build with whilst I wait for the pair I ordered and then swap them out. I'll plan on selling them at that time (with the upgrades.) I noticed last night that the rollpin at the opposite end (farthest from the leg) was safety wired. Is that the same as on yours? I'll upgrade using the shoulder bolt in place of the pin at the other end. Quote T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18 Velocity/RG N951TM Mann's Airplane Factory We add rocket's to everything! 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waiter Posted November 13, 2009 Author Share Posted November 13, 2009 On my version (very early) the top pin wasn't secured. I drilled and tapped a hole and installed an AN3 bolt to secure this pin. The bolt is safety tied in this photo. This pin should be replaced with a shoulder bolt. I'm still looking into how to retrofit mine. BIG NOTE - I'll be having a meeting with my machinest next week. I plan on having him make me new guide tubes out of steel. I'll replace these while I have the plane down to fix the pin. see post #39 http://www.canardzone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6268 I don't know how much it will cost, but I'm going to get an estimate for 5 ship-sets, if anyone else is interested (10 tubes). Stay Tuned Waiter Quote F16 performance on a Piper Cub budget LongEZ, 160hp, MT CS Prop, Downdraft cooling, Full retract visit: www.iflyez.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.