Engine choices

[Arbiter]

Engine arguments are fun, and I've found on this forum, they tend to be the ones that are filled with a lot of back and forth.... Could we accept that there are a number of different installations that will work? Each installation comes with its own issues. I think we can all agree that the traditional aviation engine is the one that requirese the least on your own development of systems (Ignition, injection, etc...). Rotaries and other auto-conversions have been done successfully, but they do require a lot more thought and engineering to implement successfully. Doesn't mean you can't do it, though one should read as many books on the conversions, and study what others have done. Learn from those that have succeeded and then see if you can directly apply those successes to your situation. Where there are gaps, you are on your own. It's certainly not an insurmountable challenge, but you do need to know "what you don't know" so to speak and figure it out! So, in summary, I think we could agree that neither direction is necessarily correct. You just need to know what the challenge entails, and meet it head on . Good luck!

 

Did anyone else that went to Oshkosh hear the deal with 100LL going away in the not too distant future? Anyone know what it's going to be replaced with? Will they just use auto-gas with some additive to simulate 100LL? When I heard that, the Jet-A diesels (Along with the developments in Jet-A biofuels) are starting to look more interesting I think. Anywho, have a good night!

 

-Chris

[Lynn Erickson]

Lynn,

I had a long post response but knowing the way things go, you won't be happy until everyone is wet.

 

You have zip experience with a rotary. I can get FACTUAL information from those who fly them. www.FlyRotary.com

 

No Pistons!

Trying to figure out where that comes from. I also get the same Factual information but I read it from a experienced aircraft mechanics point of view. I have a 13b sitting in my shop. I have owned and Raced an NSU R 080, owned Mazda Rx2 Rx3 and Rx7. Raced A 13B powered sport racer. have I flown one. NO, not that I won't, as I said I felt it would take me another two years to develop the systems to aircraft standards at the time I was looking. ten years ago rotarys were just starting to be developed and and the PRSU's were crap. maybe they have done a lot of advances but I still don't see one I want to fly with.

[longez360]

Okay. I'm convinced.

 

I'm scrapping the rotary in favor of a Lycoming.

Thanks for setting me straight.

 

 

Right! Next we'll work on the retracts, then we'll hand you over to the Vans Air Force Forum... ;-)

[SAF_Zoom]

at the time I was looking. ten years ago rotarys were just starting to be developed

 

When I ear thing like 10 years ago... I'm tempted to answer with a quote from Wayne's World... Dude live in the now

 

Kidding aside, Lynn is right that the Lycoming is a plug and play installation with a proven track record. But 10 years is a LONG time.

 

One should not attempt to reinvent the wheel with his rotary installation. If one uses the after market parts that are out their, uses a T-04 turbo (not really for the added power but to take away some of the energy from the hot exhaust gaz and compensate for a less then optimal intake) and follow the installation instruction that are available out there (yes it's all available)... you will have a reliable installation. If on the other hand you want to free hand it... well live and lurn...

 

And some Lycoming installation that are flying today are plain and simple scary... it what happens when people experiment to much...

[TMann]

ten years ago rotarys were just starting to be developed and and the PRSU's were crap. maybe they have done a lot of advances but I still don't see one I want to fly with.

That explains a lot Lynn. Tracy Crook, Perry Wick, Bruce Turrentine and the Cozy Girrrls have done a ton of work to resolve the issues with the rotary.

 

The Girrrls have a terrific engine mount in production.

 

Bruce has the rebuild process down to a science. I'm opting to have him do my rebuild. The process is pretty simple but I will defer to the expert plus the fact that it is something I can outsource.

 

Tracy has a great ECU and PRSU which he sells and is flying with.

 

Perry just keeps on flying his rotary .... hour after hour after hour ....

 

The rotary has come a long way in the course of the past 10 years. During that time Perry was out flying his, covering lots of territory with no glider time. He is a contributer.

 

I am tapping the experts in the field which typically results in a successful project. I have the PRSU and Engine Mount in-shop. The rebuilt 20B is next on my list.

 

As far as time added to the project, not to worry. Most of the additional time an airplane project realizes is due to the builders trying to get those couch cushions to conform to their anatomy, not a rotary power plant.

[Lynn Erickson]

That explains a lot Lynn. Tracy Crook, Perry Wick, Bruce Turrentine and the Cozy Girrrls have done a ton of work to resolve the issues with the rotary.

 

The Girrrls have a terrific engine mount in production.

 

Bruce has the rebuild process down to a science. I'm opting to have him do my rebuild. The process is pretty simple but I will defer to the expert plus the fact that it is something I can outsource.

 

Tracy has a great ECU and PRSU which he sells and is flying with.

 

Perry just keeps on flying his rotary .... hour after hour after hour ....

 

The rotary has come a long way in the course of the past 10 years. During that time Perry was out flying his, covering lots of territory with no glider time. He is a contributer.

 

I am tapping the experts in the field which typically results in a successful project. I have the PRSU and Engine Mount in-shop. The rebuilt 20B is next on my list.

 

As far as time added to the project, not to worry. Most of the additional time an airplane project realizes is due to the builders trying to get those couch cushions to conform to their anatomy, not a rotary power plant.

ten years ago is when I started looking and I am still looking, there have been many improvements in the systems for the engine since then. this is true. but I think it will be another ten years before these systems have proven to be reliable. even if you consider the current systems as reliable there is the issue of installation and packaging. how every thing is mounted and connected can play a big part in the success of the project. there is no standard proven way to package the whole thing. all it takes is one hose to rub on something , a wire to chafe, a bolt to vibrate loose. these are the things that I see happening to builders and they may not cause it to fall out of the sky but they have had a lot of builders walking home to get parts or trailering the thing home to make repairs. most builder have no idea how many little things can cause you a to be grounded. Murphy does not live at your home airport. this is a fact that most builder do not think about and I almost never see added to the price of an auto engine installation. yes there are some successful installations flying. but I know if you dig a little further you will find that none of them are flying the first generation of their design. most of them are on version 15 or 16. none of them installed the engine and went flying without making at least one or 20 changes to the installation. if you want to experiment thats fine but be aware that you will be experimenting and there will times you wish you were not. lets hope that it is not 100 ft after take off. you also have to except the extra time and money it will take.

[RGlos]

It's a question of time.

 

If your aged 20 to 30, then go for the Rotary, Corvair, Chevy V8 or Briggs & Stratten. You will have plenty of time to "experiment"

 

If your 30 to 50 Choose only two of the above.

 

If your 50 or older go with the Lycoming. I have had my Long for 23 years now with a O-235. The Older I get, the less problems I want in both maintaining and flying. I had mine zero timed fours years ago. I will never live long enough to see it's recommended TBO again. I have had no enigine problems at all. The most I have done is clean the plugs, change the oil and replace one Mag.

 

I'm also 45 lbs heavier than when I started. In retrospect, I wish the seats didn't incline so far back, it is no longer that comfortable with the neck. I should have built the instrument panel two inches higher to allow more leg room on the bottom side. It's not so easy for me to get out now.

 

With the bigger belly, the fuel valve could be in better position as well.

 

I'm not like Marc Zeitlin with his Less than 160 lbs. I have seen pictures of him. If he wore a red tie he would look like a thermometer.

 

In short if your older, keep it simple and dependable.

[Edge 513]

Okay. I'm convinced.

 

I'm scrapping the rotary in favor of a Lycoming.

Thanks for setting me straight.

Okay Tman. You got me goin'!! Engine rethink.

 

To be Frank.... If youre switchin', I'm switchin'.

 

I'm gonna scratch this beautiful I0540 I got, and buy a Franklin.

 

Frankly, after all thats what started this thread- A Franklin.

 

[in a pigs eye I'm switchin, and I doubt you are either.].

[argoldman]

It's a question of time.

 

If your aged 20 to 30, then go for the Rotary, Corvair, Chevy V8 or Briggs & Stratten. You will have plenty of time to "experiment"

 

If your 30 to 50 Choose only two of the above.

 

If your 50 or older go with the Lycoming. I have had my Long for 23 years now with a O-235. The Older I get, the less problems I want in both maintaining and flying. I had mine zero timed fours years ago. I will never live long enough to see it's recommended TBO again. I have had no enigine problems at all. The most I have done is clean the plugs, change the oil and replace one Mag.

 

 

Im callin "Age and engine type discrimination!!!!!!!!":irked: :irked:

 

I'd like to hit you through the internet, but I can't get up easily and my caine keeps bouncing off of my screen.

 

You do, however have a point in the development time situation, however.

 

On the plus side, those of us in our dotage will welcome the smoothness of the rotary or Franklin. Time to get off of the Harley and on to the Honda.

[RGlos]

"I'd like to hit you through the internet, but I can't get up easily and my caine keeps bouncing off of my screen."

 

Be aware, I can defend myself with my walker. If not that, then I'm good for 10 all out seconds before I go into my armadillo manuever.

 

Kidding aside, A fresh overhaulled or low time Franklin sounds like an excellent choice. These engines go a long time (in years ) between overhauls if you just give them a little care. I don't think your going to putting in 200 hours a year

 

The only real worry is tweeking the baffling.

 

When can I come over and see your progress?

[trans4md]

Regarding the Franklin...

The considerably lower price is also a plus.

I'm curious about the price. I missed it in my quick search of their web-site and I didn't find it quickly in a Google search. What price are you seeing?

[argoldman]

"I'd like to hit you through the internet, but I can't get up easily and my caine keeps bouncing off of my screen."

 

Be aware, I can defend myself with my walker. If not that, then I'm good for 10 all out seconds before I go into my armadillo manuever.

 

Kidding aside, A fresh overhaulled or low time Franklin sounds like an excellent choice. These engines go a long time (in years ) between overhauls if you just give them a little care. I don't think your going to putting in 200 hours a year

 

The only real worry is tweeking the baffling.

 

When can I come over and see your progress?

 

You can hobble out any time on a weekend. This one is full--Kids in from the coast.

 

Send me a PM and we will get together. We can do walker races. (or perhaps companion chairs)

[Edge 513]

Regarding the Franklin...

 

 

I'm curious about the price. I missed it in my quick search of their web-site and I didn't find it quickly in a Google search. What price are you seeing?

This is straight off the Franklin aircraft engine website:

 

"220 hp Franklin Engine with “STC” Conversion Kit • Install an astonishing 220 hp in your Cessna 170, 172, 175 or Stinson 108 series aircraft. Package comes with used 220 hp 6A-350 Franklin engine and our popular STC'd engine conversion kit. Engine has approximately 2000 hrs with log, disassembled for inspection, yellow tagged crankshaft. STC conversion kit includes installation paperwork, engine mount, exhaust system, oil cooler, air box, heat box, brackets, etc. Only $19,500 for complete package."

 

Astonishing!!! I wonder if thats the FI version?..and if it includes the EI and a Mag?

 

Hmmm. That 19k plus about a grand is what my IO540 will finally cost me, rebuilt to new tolerances. Add a grand for my CGirrlz mount and 2 more for the exhaust. That includes my Klaus EI and Slick Mag on one side, and rebuilding my Bendix FI, by Airflow performance.

Not sounding like a super deal to me on the Franklin as you are buying it disassembled according to the above.

YMMMV

[trans4md]

This is straight off the Franklin aircraft engine website:

 

"220 hp Franklin Engine with “STC” Conversion Kit • Install an astonishing 220 hp in your Cessna 170, 172, 175 or Stinson 108 series aircraft. Package comes with used 220 hp 6A-350 Franklin engine and our popular STC'd engine conversion kit. Engine has approximately 2000 hrs with log, disassembled for inspection, yellow tagged crankshaft. STC conversion kit includes installation paperwork, engine mount, exhaust system, oil cooler, air box, heat box, brackets, etc. Only $19,500 for complete package."

 

Astonishing!!! I wonder if thats the FI version?..and if it includes the EI and a Mag?

 

Hmmm. That 19k plus about a grand is what my IO540 will finally cost me, rebuilt to new tolerances. Add a grand for my CGirrlz mount and 2 more for the exhaust. That includes my Klaus EI and Slick Mag on one side, and rebuilding my Bendix FI, by Airflow performance.

Not sounding like a super deal to me on the Franklin as you are buying it disassembled according to the above.

YMMMV

LOL. How embarrassing to have missed it right on the home page of the web-site. When I searched previously, I dug into the Experimental page on the navigation bar. In any event, thanks for passing along the price.