OpenEZ Plans update, pdf

[cweiss]

Not exactly...

 

http://www.dscinet.com/eZ80/OpenEZ/

 

Thats more what I am concerned about. Been around since 2002, last update copyright 2002-2005.

IANAL...

You can't copyright a word. You could use it as a trademark but the eZ80 OpenEZ project doesn't seem to have a trademark. Anyway... No one would confuse a software project with an aircraft. I don't think there is any problem.

[emteeoh]

A few things to say:

 

1) a wiki would kick ass. I'd contribute, if only as another way to familiarize myself with the plans. Between a 7-week-old baby boy and a start-up, my attention span is about 10 minutes at a time. Perfect for editing a wiki, terrible for building in the only workshop available to me 20 minutes away.

2) I'm unhappy about my contribution to the discussion of copyrights. Marc, I don't think that continuing that debate is a useful way to spend your (or my or anyone else's) time. Given that neither of us are lawyers (AFAIK), its a battle of midgets, so to speak. That is to say I wish I hadn't brought it up, and I'm trying to leave Marc with the last word on the subject.

3) Raiki: I love your chapter 4. Did you integrate the fixes I pointed out? I'm also curious if anyone thinks it violates Burt's copyrights.

4) Aiman commented about the time it would take to make the video project. I don't think it has to be long, relatively speaking. For example, this summer, Jack had an unfortunate fire, and is now building a new e-racer. Given my limited knowledge of the e-racer, its very similar to, but more complex than the Long-EZ. Jack's build started in about August, and he expects to be flying, approximately, in june. He's said that he works 25 hours a week on it. Imagine if he'd just had someone shadowing him with a camcorder and mailing a tape off once a month to a video-editing-volunteer.

5) SAF: I really like the idea of even just creating an errata document: for each step of each chapter, have a summary of "best practice" changes, hopefully with links to the source of the idea.

6) Owning a copy of at least the TERF CDs should be barrier to entry. Even if someone had updated all the plans, etc, I still would read the originals.

7) Bruce: there are different licensing terms that could be arranged. If the open-ez project truly doesn't violate TERF's rights, and the authors want to give it away for free download... well that doesn't mean that the authors couldn't also authorize TERF to be the sole party able to commercially re-distribute the results. (See the Creative Common's licenses for examples) Unfortunately, I don't know how to do a non-profit, collaborative effort with a product that must be purchased from TERF, unless TERF controls who participates. They could host the wiki and sell login IDs I guess.

[cweiss]

If this project can produce plans that do not infringe the Long-EZ copyright then the project has no need for TERF.

An errata sheet by chapter is a great idea. That sounds like a great starting point.

If this is an open project and TERF wants to include the project's work then what do we care aside from kudos for getting a wider distribution?

In my opinion, the goal of the project should be to produce a complete and consistent set of plans for building an Open-EZ, not a Long-EZ (that's what TERF sells).

[Vortal]

1) I'm in for the wiki/ development of this (i to have my Terf here)

2) if OpenEZ is not usable, can use Open-Ez (like the Long-Ez format)

3) if you need de drawings i have done go ahead (the instrument panel is in an other tread of the open-ez)

4) I'm not necessarily comfortable with TERF selling the job i have done for free if i did it for free, i want it to stay free, not that someone elsemakes some money on it, some way or an other (maybe Burt himself as he is the father of the concept, maybe not...)

5) i may be the only on thinking this but Terf's purpose is to sell an encyclopedia of RAF's aircraft, not to sell plans of the long-ez, and i think this gets us further away from them. as we have all agreed that it isn't a long EZ that we are building but an open EZ, we shouldn't depend on them. If they want to participate, very good, but we should take the lead for this, and not them. this is how i see it

 

6) i like what i see these days on this forum!

[mfryer]

I still think it would be wise to avoid any OCR or any verbatim copying of words and text.

 

If someone has a good grasp of any particular step, it should be written in there own words and any plans updates or improvements should be included, in there own words.

 

This next suggestion might offer to much confusion, however folks might even think about re-numbering or reordering the chapters. Perhaps an education of composite construction including some of the newer techniques could be published as a separate document. Then the plans would start with an introduction, bill of materials, suppliers and bulkhead construction starting chapter 1.

[Vortal]

This next suggestion might offer to much confusion, however folks might even think about re-numbering or reordering the chapters. Perhaps an education of composite construction including some of the newer techniques could be published as a separate document. Then the plans would start with an introduction, bill of materials, suppliers and bulkhead construction starting chapter 1.

I don't agree, and on the contrary, it would be more confusing than anything, the Cozy has the same sequence of chapter as the long-ez. i think by keeping the same sequence people can cross reference the long-ez, the cozy and the open-ez. i do agree that the content must be different, but the sequence must remain identical. i wouldn't be surprised that other canard derivative are also built the same way

 

By the way www.open-ez.org doesn't seem used (I'm not expert on web site)

[Aiman]

I don't agree, and on the contrary, it would be more confusing than anything, the Cozy has the same sequence of chapter as the long-ez. i think by keeping the same sequence people can cross reference the long-ez, the cozy and the open-ez. i do agree that the content must be different, but the sequence must remain identical. i wouldn't be surprised that other canard derivative are also built the same way

 

By the way www.open-ez.org doesn't seem used (I'm not expert on web site)

I agree, I feel that the chapters should be kept in the same order, and leave it to the builder to decide if they want to deviate from the plans order. The reason we would want to keep the chapters the same is that any updates or safety/airworthiness advisories will specifically reference chapters in the original Long/Cozy, etc. If someone can provide compelling reason to drastically deviate from the original order, then I'm for it.

 

The website you mentioned appears to be 'parked' at godaddy, which means someone already owns it, and we can't use it.

[raiki]

3) Raiki: I love your chapter 4. Did you integrate the fixes I pointed out? I'm also curious if anyone thinks it violates Burt's copyrights.

 

What is on the forum is still pretty close to the original version. I have an updated version at home (2000km away) with some changes. Most changes were incorporated from many suggestions, but not all. I don't remember the specifics.

[Edge 513]

I am so on the outside looking in to this thing. All of you are very professional with all your computer/IT speak.

But...

What I see is a bunch of techies who want to do something that they are familiar with [writing techie stuff] rather than just BUILDING THE DAM AIRPLANE!!!

If you guys just started building, for all the hours of musing and 'contributing'...you would have some serious parts built....maybe even an airframe. Theres a lot of Long's been built from the old plans so it is very doable.

Sorry if I am blunt. it just seems this way to me. I know I am going to get some PM's agreeing and disagreeing with me. I dont give a rip. I just think for all the time spent you ought to end up with an airframe to sit in.

[TMann]

...

What I see is a bunch of techies who want to do something that they are familiar with [writing techie stuff] rather than just BUILDING THE DAM AIRPLANE!!!

I can't speak for the Cozy plans but most of what you see in the Long-EZ plans is printed, not typed. I've spent a lot of time reading and trying to decipher what I'm looking at. Many times I will compare what I see in the Long-EZ plans against the AeroCad plans just to translate it into and understandable format. It's easy to get stuck from time to time.

 

I started many years ago to do the same thing for my own use. What surprises me is that the Terf CD hasn't already gone through this conversion. The plans I have are over 20 years old. I believe there have been some advances since then.

 

I can see the need ....... it's just a matter of what comes next.

[SAF_Zoom]

Well I see it more as a way of improving the build process for builders to come. I know that going through all the data that is available out there and trying to incorporate it in the plans is a lot of work... It also has to be redone each time someone want to start a project.

 

This effort would seriously cut down on the "pre building" phase for many. So I think that those that are willing to take the time to make this happen merite our thanks... nothing less...

[Drew Swenson]

TMANN, don't know what you are talking about. I am looking at the TERF CD right now for the Longez Plans---they are clear and easy to read. Most of it is typed (but not searchable). The hand printed stuff appears mostly on the drawings but are very easy to read. Only the photographs leave something to be desired----when compared with the original plans. Maybe you could point me to a particular page so that I could see what you are talking about.

[Vortal]

First i don't have the space to build what so ever for now, so i might as well try to understand the project (witch is a VERY large project)

 

Second, doing this research with others enables me to have a better understanding of the project, and to avoid try and mistake method, it enables me to do it right and efficiently the first time, by sharing others experiences and mine with others. Also as SAF was saying, everyone who will start the project won't need to go thru the searching process any more, and start Building the Dam airplane strait away.

[TMann]

You're correct Drew, it's mostly the hand written notes within the text, in the drawings/sketches etc.

 

The Open-EZ might be much more viable if the plans were brought up to the standard that has been establish by companies like Berkut, AeroCad, etc.

 

Yes ........ text PDFs (which makes it searchable) would be an improvement. Including all of the updates that apply to the Long-EZ in all of the CPs would be a real advancement.

 

In the event that an agreement can be reached with Terf and a standard format established, I would gladly volunteer to code a chapter for Terf.

[TMann]

First i don't have the space to build what so ever for now, so i might as well try to understand the project (witch is a VERY large project).

Sorry Vortal ........ but no witches allowed.

Second, doing this research with others enables me to have a better understanding of the project, and to avoid try and mistake method, it enables me to do it right and efficiently the first time,......

And you are right, working on such a project will do nothing but familiarize yourself with every aspect of the build. That was ONE of my objectives when I was working on that during the early 90's. I haven't been working on this build for about a year and a half. During the other 20 years ........ I studied, dreamed and waited for the opportunity to start.

[raiki]

What I see is a bunch of techies who want to do something that they are familiar with [writing techie stuff] rather than just BUILDING THE DAM AIRPLANE!!!

You are correct, and I'd love to start building now but I just cant. I am not going to tell you why because it is MY business and no one elses.

 

Because I can't build, I thought I'd put my time into this project. No harm learning more about the building and so far this has proved very valuable to me.

 

Actually, I may never even build an OpenEZ as I have Cozy plans. Discouraging people from contributing to this project doesn't seem like a valuable contribution to the project. Let the people use THEIR time as THEY see fit, because to be honest I couldn't care less what YOU think I should do with MY time.

[Aiman]

I have the Wiki set up, but the domain name registration hasn't gone through yet. I am also in the process of setting up the project management portal as well.

 

If you want a preview of the Wiki or Project Management system, please send me a private message, and I will send you the testing URLs. I have not enabled security on it yet, so It's not quite ready for public exposure.

[Edge 513]

Have at it. I am not telling you what to do with your time. There's something for everybody. I was talking to a guy who was building for 12 years and wished to be anonymous. He kept building parts over and over to perfection. Another builder was absolutely enamored with this guys work and thought he would continue in that spirit of perfection. Then I told the new guy that the perfectionist had admitted to me that he never planned to actually fly the finished plane...he was just having a blast building the thing. That to him was the most wonderful thing...to be able to build such a creation. So, there truly is all different aspects to the process. Oh, the new guy....he stopped building after a while. He got overwhelmed by what a big project it turned out to be. I could see it coming....anybody could, he spent an inordinate amount of time just fixing up his garage to become his workshop, suitable to build the plane in. Heck, I told him, people have built these in their Living rooms to start. Buly did. The # of guys who have said they wished they had started sooner rather than later is a big one. I know theres been many plane built from the originals, thats all.YMMV

[Vortal]

http://www.open-ez-project.org/ is empty

[Aiman]

Domain name is already set. I need to have a talk with Jon M and the other people heavily involved in the project to see how they want to handle ownership of the domain, etc. I would be glad to donate it to the project somehow, but I guess the site has to be owned by an entity (a person or legal entity, llc, corporation, etc).

 

Other issues that need to be figured out are liability/licensing, etc. How do we move forward with the project, in essence, giving our work to the community, but preventing liability issues...

[mfryer]

I am so on the outside looking in to this thing. All of you are very professional with all your computer/IT speak.

But...

What I see is a bunch of techies who want to do something that they are familiar with [writing techie stuff] rather than just BUILDING THE DAM AIRPLANE!!!.

I don't know who are all you are including in this group of techies, However I have been "BUILDING THE DAM AIRPLANE!!!", for a little over a year.

 

I agree that the TERF-CD is readable. Also at this time I think with prefab cores available the templates are almost not required.

 

However, having a set of updated plans available, either through TERF or other sources would be of great help to me, and others who may decide to start there own project.

[Marc Zeitlin]

Folks:

 

After watching years of discussions regarding the "Open-EZ" project, copyright infringement questions, plans copying questions, and the latest round of claims by various people about public domain issues, etc. (and finding myself stuck in Mojave before going home from work due to the roads being closed by the CHP since they had all of 2.3" of snow on them), I decided to ask Burt what the deal is.

 

Here's what Burt says regarding the Long-EZ copyright ownership, public domain issues, and TERF. I cannot vouch for the legal accuracy of what he said to me, but this is what he stated.

 

He/RAF currently still own the copyright for the Long-EZ plans and templates. They have NEVER been put in the public domain (whatever some others may claim).

 

RAF never "authorized" TERF to sell copies of the plans, although he/RAF DID authorize them to distribute the CP's (which claim all over them that everyone is free to redistribute them).

 

Burt's recollection is that TERF started distributing the plans without permission, although Burt told them to at least tell people not to build airplanes from them, and they do that. He was not aware that TERF was still distributing them.

 

He did state that he has never pursued legal efforts against anyone who copied the plans and/or sold them - he just stated that he would tell anyone that asked him whether they could sell their plans, either before or after completing an airplane from them, that THEY would become the support mechanism for the next owner - RAF would not support anyone that hadn't purchased plans from RAF.

 

He stated that while he/RAF still owns the copyrights, he would not attempt to protect that ownership by legal means.

 

So, straight from the horse's mouth. Assuming it's accuracy, do with it what you will from a moral standpoint, knowing that you will not be pursued legally - obviously TERF hasn't been, whatever their claims of "authorization".

[Bruce]

Thanks Marc! This answers a lot of questions and should put the issue to rest, but, we know it's opened a new can or worms...

 

I have some new questions for Terf now... should be an interesting conversation to say the least.

 

 

Bruce

[mfryer]

Interesting. Still a lot of grey areas.

 

I agree there are some cans of...

[Aiman]

1. Marc, I can't thank you enough for getting to the bottom of this for us. It certainly helps to clarify the path which lies ahead.

 

2. I am utterly stunned about the TERF CD's. There will be some VERY hard questions for the owner of that company from this community. I do not envy him.

 

3. I without question will trust Marc's word over TERF's, as he has never given me a reason to doubt him. Period. Unless they produce a signed, legally binding contract giving them authorization to redistribute the plans, I have no reason to believe them.

 

4. Since BURT is the holder of copy/distribution rights, I will honor those, and continue on with this project as a full rewrite.

 

I'm truly sick (Influenza), and exhausted, otherwise I would write more. Still... absolutely stunned. I have no words