OpenEZ Plans update, pdf

[Vortal]

The purpose of this was to bring the plans up to date. Why do you refuse to comprehend that? CP Newsletter updates, new build images (which are nigh unrecognizable in the, oh wait, PDF's that are provided on the TERF CD's.)

 

Life is not without its strange coincidences sometimes.

 

You really are wasting time on nitpicking. If you devoted half the energy you expend to ripping peoples thoughts apart to actually coming forth with a solution for all this, we'd be in a much better place.

Agree, this is also why people aren't using DOS any more, doesn't mean DOS isn't good, but still...

 

Can we please go ahead with this project? who's taking charge of what? let's be positive here, and bring solutions!

[Bruce]

It's a long read, sorry...

 

So what facts do we actually have here...just off the top of my head...

 

The plans are copyrighted by RAF... even though RAF closed their doors does not mean the copyright went away.

 

TerfCD (Matthew) has only (the only) distribution rights to those plans.

 

Templates... new ones available on the internet thanks to the hard work of Jon and many others, an important step here for those that want to build a LongEZ using the TerfCD.

 

You don't need a "license" or permission from anyone to build a LongEZ from TerfCD's or 20 year old plans or ones you draw up yourself.

 

Can we please go ahead with this project? who's taking charge of what? let's be positive here, and bring solutions!

Would it be nice to have a new and updated set of plans, CP's, templates, etc. for the LongEZ? Seems a shame to have all the great information of the last 20 years or so in so many different locations (web sites, newsletters, etc) and not in one giant PDF. I'd be the first to purchase that or download if available, which leads us to the next thought...

 

If someone wanted to take the 1000's of hours it would take to rewrite the LE plans in their own words, without copying or plagiarizing, but which would result in exactly the same aircraft...

That's what you'll need to do in order to not infringe on RAF's copyright.

 

So who's going to take on that "little" project and give it away for free through the internet. I think Spruce/Wick's would be the biggest beneficiary's of those efforts. TerfCD can't help here, he only has distribution rights. Would you sell enough plans to make the venture worth while, really hard to say, except, how deep are your pockets? Which brings me back to this statement.

 

... let's be positive here, and bring solutions!

I didn't want to give out this information just yet, but, with the conversation that's taken place, I thought I'd share with the group on what I'm doing.

 

TerfCD and I are working out the final details about updating his CD's with LongEZ plans to include all the changes from the past CP's(it's a start).

 

A LongEZ and Cozy MKIV fuselage "Quick Start Kit" that will have everything pre-cut and ready to assemble, even the fiber glass and plastic sheets. Just mix epoxy and lay glass. The LongEZ fuselage kit is almost finished. Having stated that, with the condition of the economy this project (Quick Start Kits) has slowed down considerably, however the LongEZ CP updates are moving on ahead just fine. Hopefully by early summer that portion will be ready for the public with distribution through TerfCD.

 

So, yes, some of us are doing what we can while respecting the rights (legal/moral) of others trying to help keep a great airplane alive and easier to build for future builders. Having the greatest set of plans is only a part of what's needed to get the next generation of builders building a "plans built" aircraft.

 

Update: The Big Book of Canard's - I have almost 150 great photo's sent in from around the globe of canard aircraft. The book is coming along fine, plenty of work still to go and should be ready by early spring. Thanks to those that took the time and effort to send in those great pictures, still time to send more in, can't have too many you know.

 

Bruce

[Aiman]

Would it be nice to have a new and updated set of plans, CP's, templates, etc. for the LongEZ? Seems a shame to have all the great information of the last 20 years or so in so many different locations (web sites, newsletters, etc) and not in one giant PDF. I'd be the first to purchase that or download if available, which leads us to the next thought...

 

-snip-

 

TerfCD and I are working out the final details about updating his CD's with LongEZ plans to include all the changes from the past CP's(it's a start).

Thats basically what I was trying to do, with the addition of:

 

-Updated parts/epoxy/etc requirements

-Fully OCR'd and very clear text

-New, color photos

[JLKnolla]

I have been a very long time lurker here and have to say that Marc's arrogant outburts are a significant reason I do not participate here on a regular basis - I try to avoid big-fish-small-pond syndrome sufferers, the scurge of web communities.

 

All Marc needed to say was OCR copying of the original manual and replacing Long with Open was not a good idea, just 'rewrite them' - that is it, period. His last post is the only time he actually just said it.

 

As has, IMO too often been the case, he felt the need to belittle someone, in this case, Aiman and to once again regale us with tales of his closeness to Burt and threaten turning us in.

 

Being an ass is not the same as telling it straight - it is possible to be direct and respectful at the same time. Marc obviously has a good deal of experience to share but reading many threads on this forum leaves me questioning the overall value - how many folks have come and gone on to the other forums based on his condescending and unnecessarily abrasive tone?

 

Marc's familiarity with the Cozy and his reputed and oft-mentioned closeness to Rutan are not a license to be an ass.

 

To be clear, Rutan abandoned this market, he made a deliberate choice NOT to be further associated with the EZ designs, NOT to further support them directly or otherwise. He might be goaded into legal action but if someone else is taking responsibility for the information and it was, as Aiman originally suggested, updated with new photos, the new drawings, and inclusion of all the CP changes it would NOT be the copyrighted material anymore - it would be a substanital, and much needed improvement.

 

That said, rewriting the material in the manual to make it clear, include the CP changes, etc., while obviating the copyright concern would not take 'thousands of hours', as an experienced engineer and technical writer in the aerospace field myself I say that with complete confidence. I have well under a thousand hours into my own two-seat canard design - and will only approach that figure by including preliminary design, X-plane sim work (current stage), CAD detail design, and a build manual and POH.

 

Given the unfortunately frequent, petty and abrasive nature of the discussion here though why would anyone want to undertake such an update effort with the Grinch waiting in the wings?

 

As for pissing Marc off, why should anyone worry about that, he obviously has no concern about that re: the rest of us mere mortals.

 

I was originally very interested in the Open-EZ but after all the pissing battles have decided to build my own clean-sheet two-seat canard instead, in part to avoid having to wade through the needless braggadocio and would-be lawyer-speak to get to the occasional nugget of fresh tasty goodness.

[Marc Zeitlin]

All Marc needed to say was OCR copying of the original manual and replacing Long with Open was not a good idea,

It's more than just "not a good idea" - it's a violation of copyright laws.

 

...just 'rewrite them' - that is it, period. His last post is the only time he actually just said it.

Actually, I said almost exactly that in the first sentence of the second to last paragraph of my first response. I said:

 

"If you rewrote the plans in your own words and redrew the drawings, then the infringement would be arguable."

 

...but if someone else is taking responsibility for the information and it was, as Aiman originally suggested, updated with new photos, the new drawings, and inclusion of all the CP changes it would NOT be the copyrighted material anymore - it would be a substanital, and much needed improvement.

You are incorrect with respect to copyright laws. All that needs to happen for all this to be OK is for someone to get permission in writing from TERF/Rutan to do it. It sounds like someone is attempting that, and if it happens, that's a good thing. But working within the legal structure is an important aspect of the project. Stealing intellectual property is not.

 

That said, rewriting the material in the manual to make it clear, include the CP changes, etc., while obviating the copyright concern would not take 'thousands of hours', as an experienced engineer and technical writer in the aerospace field myself I say that with complete confidence.

It's been 30 years since the LE plans were published - no one has re-written them. If it's so trivial, just do it and the canard community (or at least the 15-20 people who are interested in building brand new 2-seat canard aircraft) will thank you. It's been clearly stated that this will NOT violate any copyright laws, so there's no-one that can/would complain about the effort in any way.

[JLKnolla]

This type of snide reply is exactly the issue I brought up.

 

I did not say it was 'trivial', I said it would not take 'thousands of hours' which was your assertion Marc. The manual has not been rewritten because it did not need to be if you bought a licensed set of plans or were building your own 'Insert-name-here' two-seat canard aircraft from whatever source data.

 

30 years later, with countless CP changes, many builder-improvements, and umpteenth-generation copies of copies, it is no longer tenable or a reliable method for building a safe aircraft. What was suggested was to improve the process.

 

As for the copyright, the material Aiman suggested creating, with NEW photos, NEW material/epoxy substitutions, the 'NEW' drawings, and the CP changes included, would clearly be a derivative work which is absolutely allowed under current copyright law - 'substantially different' is not defined except in caselaw. He could legally sell that material although that did not seem to be part of the original idea as I recall.

 

And all of this would only possibly matter if Burt decided for some reason to take legal action, which would not seem to be likely OR make any sense.

 

Either Burt wants to still make money from the EZ design or he does not - with a new copyright holder for the derivative work, the 'NEW' templates and the other materials resulting in an essentially 'new' design, there is no direct liability chain to Burt.

 

If this issue exists for the written material it exists for the drawings, pure and simple - if it does not exist for the drawing, it does not exist for the written material if the same/similar process is undertaken.

 

The only reason for him to get involved is for revenue from potential licensing issues - licensing which he has spent the last twenty years trying to avoid.

[Aiman]

If it's so trivial, just do it and the canard community (or at least the 15-20 people who are interested in building brand new 2-seat canard aircraft) will thank you.

Marc, here is where I think the benefit would be:

 

With re-factored, modern plans, there is a possibility that it would renew interest in the design, bringing more people into the builder community. Having a 'one shot' download of all the (updated) plans, drawings, POH, etc could possibly renew interest in the design, especially with EXCELLENT builder/materials resources such as Eureka, CozyGirrrls, etc out there. Even if people want to download the plans to 'kick the tires' as it were, to see if they even want to build at all.. that's better than nothing.

 

I personally feel that there could be a resurgence in the type. I remember being told at one meeting that my new EAA Chapter was the 'composite king' and had the most composite aircraft (either finished or under construction) many years back. Now, I think there are maybe 3 composite aircraft left here. One of which is an old LongEZ in a hangar gathering dust. Shame, really.

 

My intentions are pure, always were.

[Vortal]

Ok guys,

let's do it, we'll see next,

buy talking in the air like that about if it's maybe or maybe not legal or copyrightable in a certain point of personal view won't lead us anywhere

 

let's just do it, rewrite the hole thing redo the templates and the other stuff. who cares if only 15-20 persons will ever use the pack, we aren't here to be the next big thing in this industry, we are just people from different horizons that love this aircraft and want to keep it alive. if people doesn't agree with this, without bringing solutions, there are invited to not post in this project and let us do what we love.

 

Let's get starting!

 

i'm getting a bit like JLKnolla, fed up of all this talking and willing to build my own two or 4 seats canard, but i still have hope (not for very long)

[TMann]

Let's get starting!

 

........... you guys are 'continuing flight into deteriating conditions.'

 

I've spent a lot of time with patent attourneys over the past year. They are always looking for that next case. Do you really want to be it?

[JLKnolla]

My last words on this subject:

 

IANAL

 

Derivative Work

 

Substanitally Different

 

Transformativeness

 

Allowable

 

[SAF_Zoom]

I'm no lawyer but if one is to integrate the "free content" of the CP's into the original... then you have a sustantially new design... Is there a patent attorney in the bunch?

[Marc Zeitlin]

With re-factored, modern plans, there is a possibility that it would renew interest in the design...I personally feel that there could be a resurgence in the type...My intentions are pure, always were.

I do not disagree with anything you said here. The notion of bringing the plans into the 20th century, if not the 21st, with the incorporation of everything you've mentioned is an excellent idea - one that I toyed with for the COZY plans numerous times (and gave up on, given the amount of work involved - having OCR'd and digitized the COZY newsletters without ANY updating or rewriting, with Nat's permission, I've got a pretty good idea of what would be involved with doing that for the COZY plans).

 

And I certainly do/did not question your intentions - it's fairly obvious that anyone contemplating doing a crapload of work and then giving it away has relatively pure intentions.

 

The issue was always with the way the intentions were being expressed - i.e. copying someone else's work, and in this case redistributing something that's being sold by a licensed distributor (TERF). If TERF bought the work from you, or licensed you, or said "go for it - we're good with what you're doing", then bingo - you're done, and more power to you. Or if you rewrote the plans in your own words - same thing.

 

But the cart was before the horse. That was my only objection. Get the ducks lined up first - then shoot them.

[Aiman]

I think we need to get together the 'leaders' in the community, and those who have a substantial interest in seeing the project continue, and possibly plan out a roadmap for the project, and come to an agreement on how we can proceed without violating any rights retained by the original designers or those now licensed to distribute it. Call it the 'OpenEZ Summit' if you will.

 

We have a tremendous opportunity to do something in the aviation world that has not really been done before.

 

I'm willing to donate any resources (unlimited webhosting being one thing) that I have available to the project.

 

After speaking with Bruce from this forum, he suggested that we do a chapter-wiki rewrite of the manual. Using a system like MediaWiki will enable the project to track changes, add photos, new drawings, multimedia objects, etc to the plans. I can get the base wiki easily set up in a matter of minutes. The community can contribute images, videos, car drawings, plans updates, etc.

 

Speaking of OpenEZ... there is already an open source project with that name. It's an open source operating system for the eZ80 family of microprocessors..

[raiki]

Ok, I'll speak up now as I have been watching this thread from the begining. I have always thought using OCR to redo the plans was bad for a few reasons. Number 1 you get the original data with no updates. 2. The copy right issue. 3. The checking required takes as long as it takes me to type the whole lot out. 4. Hmmm cant remember but there were heaps of reasons.

 

Here is what I have done to date (although it is not up to date). My version is not OCR, has CAD generated drawings. There is still too much verbatim with the originals but I am showing you all this to indicated where I was planning to go. This is only a draft release.

 

http://www.canardzone.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1704&d=1211287960

 

I have lost a bit of interest in the whole OpenEZ project because currently there are too many people trying to redo what has already been redone by myself and others on this forum. If you search you will also find CAD templates of the Roncz canard and the wing templates that I have done. They are all one piece and acuracy checked with original templates, yet others are still trying to redo them again. Not sure why I wasted my time.

 

I dont think I will do any more until the project is 'started' and we have some form of version control, peer review before release etc. I have wasted too many hours on this already, and now others are redoing them to an equal or lesser standard. I don't see the point carrying on this way.

 

Personally, I'd love Burt to see what I have done (both in the plans and the templates) and see what he has to say. If he says stop, then thats the end for me.

[raiki]

Here's the canard templates ... http://www.canardzone.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1706&d=1211433000

 

The wing ones are on here somewhere, can't remember where I posted them.

[JLKnolla]

Very nice work Raiki - something like that should be the standard going forward, and your suggestion to avoid duplication of effort is also a great idea but that requires someone to 'herd the cats' so-to-speak, in other words, someone to take charge and provide some organization.

 

And, since I criticized in public I will praise in public as well, Marc's last reply was excellent and would, I hope, be the tone we all aspire to.

[cweiss]

Raiki, I think your work is beautiful and of high quality. I appreciate it.

 

I think the point of starting with OCRs of the original plans to ensure that all necessary detail is preserved. It would be a starting point for the CP updates. Then that set of updated plans would be the starting point for the rewrite. The rewrite would then be the Open-EZ 1.0.

 

This process has the advantage of transparency but is not without legal difficulty as it would require distributing the copyrighted plans to those working on the project without permission. Perhaps it's not tenable in this forum.

 

Regardless of how the complete set of plans gets redeveloped, I would like to see end notes for each chapter that detail updates to the plans, if any, and their source. I don't think that the updates necessarily need to come from CP if there are generally recognized best practices that are not in the original plans and not in CP. The Open-EZ plans 1.0 need to be developed in the most transparent way possible. I believe that the more transparency there is in the process, the more confidence in the finished product there will be.

[TMann]

Why are you guys starting from scratch? You can scrape all the text from the Terf CD and then make the few updates as you go.

Have you contacted Terf?

Could it be that they are already doing this?

[Aiman]

Why are you guys starting from scratch? You can scrape all the text from the Terf CD and then make the few updates as you go.

Have you contacted Terf?

Could it be that they are already doing this?

Nobody to my knowledge has contacted TERF.

 

The reason we are going to probably have to start over is that it is actually not possible to scrape the text from the PDF's on the TERF CD. In order to have the ability to text scrape, the PDF had to have been created with a modern computer word processing program (MS Word for example) and then "printed to PDF." The TERF CD files are PDF's of a scanned image, and therefore the text must be run through an OCR program to get the text out. When I was using OmniPage Pro 16 to do it, I was getting significantly less than 70% accuracy.

 

Remember, the original plans had a lot of handwritten notes/corrections, splotches on the page, etc. OCR cannot handle that effectively.

 

However! I feel that there is an alternative, that will let many people cooperate on the project together. MediaWiki. It would be possible to put together a chapter based plans rewrite with multimedia elements and have it all available online. It would give us the ability to have version control, complete transparency, and give the ability for a community selected member to 'lead' the project, as it were.

 

So, I guess that I took Marc's concerns to heart, as I'm still a little concerned about stepping on these guys. They have been around a lot longer than us: http://www.dscinet.com/eZ80/OpenEZ/ The copyright on their page shows 2002, updated as recently as 2005.

 

OpenCanard 2, perhaps? (2 for "two place")

[Aiman]

Raiki, I think your work is beautiful and of high quality. I appreciate it.

Yeah.. amazing. The use of CAD drawings throughout the plans rewite would be a very easy way to modernize them.

 

I think the point of starting with OCRs of the original plans to ensure that all necessary detail is preserved. It would be a starting point for the CP updates. Then that set of updated plans would be the starting point for the rewrite. The rewrite would then be the Open-EZ 1.0.

EXACTLY!

 

This process has the advantage of transparency but is not without legal difficulty as it would require distributing the copyrighted plans to those working on the project without permission. Perhaps it's not tenable in this forum.

Not necessarily. I personally own a copy of the TERF CD's. I am sure anyone else who is seriously considering a build (or contributing significantly to this project) also has purchased them, or is planning to.

 

I don't think that the updates necessarily need to come from CP if there are generally recognized best practices that are not in the original plans and not in CP. The Open-EZ plans 1.0 need to be developed in the most transparent way possible. I believe that the more transparency there is in the process, the more confidence in the finished product there will be.

I may or may not agree.. I'm not sure if 'best practices' have changed much with working with glass over the years, more experienced builders could probably answer that. Resin systems have changed dramatically, thats for sure. And maybe we can add new methods such as Randi and Chrissy's 'lo-vac' bagging technique to lighten up parts.

 

In addition, there are some things that I would love to see addressed in the new plans. For example, a more robust rollover protection system in case of off-field landings.

[SAF_Zoom]

Just a though, best practices could be indicated via suggested alternate approach/methods

[Bruce]

Have you contacted Terf?

Could it be that they are already doing this?

Yes, I've been talking and working with Terf. Matthew(Terf owner) would be interested in making all the changes that everyone is talking about here, however, he would still require that he be the sole distributor of the LongEZ plans, kinda shoots that "open" thing in the foot. With all the changes and rewriting that everyone seems to be willing to do, it doesn't sound like it would be the LongEZ anymore.

 

So, let's get started. Aiman, how long before you can set up the Wiki for this project? I would suggest that the Wiki be set up so only invited members could add or make changes to the OpenEZ project.

 

Raiki, would it be alright to start with your work?

 

Anyone want to handle the oversight in the beginning until some organization starts to evolve?

 

This will obviously be a work in progress, if we happen to cross the line somewhere inadvertently, we'll apologize, make the needed corrections and move on. Mighty big undertaking...

 

Bruce

[Aiman]

So, let's get started. Aiman, how long before you can set up the Wiki for this project? I would suggest that the Wiki be set up so only invited members could add or make changes to the OpenEZ project.

 

Anyone want to handle the oversight in the beginning until some organization starts to evolve?

Bruce,

I am in the process of setting up both the wiki and project roadmap (we'll be using a web based, open source project management system called 'dotproject' and of course the MediaWiki).

 

I'm not really sure that I am the right person to lead/direct the project in the interim, but I will gladly take responsibility for getting the first few pieces together:

 

Domain Name & Hosting

Website

Wiki & Setup

Project Planning system

anything else that needs to get done.

 

I'm still a bit concerned about the name though. . .

[JLKnolla]

About the name:

 

OpenEZ is to Long-EZ as OpenOffice is to MS-Office - I wouldn't worry.

[Aiman]

About the name:

 

OpenEZ is to Long-EZ as OpenOffice is to MS-Office - I wouldn't worry.

Not exactly...

 

http://www.dscinet.com/eZ80/OpenEZ/

 

Thats more what I am concerned about. Been around since 2002, last update copyright 2002-2005.