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Itch, itch, itch ........


TMann

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Okay .... I'm wearling long sleeves when I work and always use latex gloves when handling epoxy but it just doesn't seem like enough. When I'm working on long layups (such as shear webs, spar caps ......etc.) where the time involved is a couple of hours, I end up miserable the next 24+ hours.

 

I don't know if the epoxy is permiating the gloves or I'm developing an alergy to latex or ...... maybe it's the powder in the gloves?

 

The only relief I have found is to immerse my hands in the hottest water I can stand and then quickly dry them off and hit the hand cream.

 

I'm starting to double glove using the glove you use in the kitchen (at least they cover the gap at my wrist) and then apply the latex gloves over that. We'll see how that goes. I did that last night but my exposure time was a lot less than on other layups.

 

Anyone else enjoying the same misery?

T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18

Velocity/RG N951TM

Mann's Airplane Factory

We add rocket's to everything!

4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done

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Okay .... I'm wearling long sleeves when I work and always use latex gloves when handling epoxy but it just doesn't seem like enough. When I'm working on long layups (such as shear webs, spar caps ......etc.) where the time involved is a couple of hours, I end up miserable the next 24+ hours.

 

I don't know if the epoxy is permiating the gloves or I'm developing an alergy to latex or ...... maybe it's the powder in the gloves?

 

The only relief I have found is to immerse my hands in the hottest water I can stand and then quickly dry them off and hit the hand cream.

 

I'm starting to double glove using the glove you use in the kitchen (at least they cover the gap at my wrist) and then apply the latex gloves over that. We'll see how that goes. I did that last night but my exposure time was a lot less than on other layups.

 

Anyone else enjoying the same misery?

What I did when working at PWC, was wairing a pair of mechanic gloves under the latex one. They will absorbe some of the mosture from your hands. They should lessen the irritation...

 

Don't know about working with epoxy, but a tight pair of mechanic glove (or if you want even tighter and thinner try the Dye paintball gloves) should help..

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I'm starting to double glove using the glove you use in the kitchen (at least they cover the gap at my wrist) and then apply the latex gloves over that. We'll see how that goes. I did that last night but my exposure time was a lot less than on other layups.

 

Anyone else enjoying the same misery?

I wasn't itching until I read this... :)

 

I was having the same problem until I started wearing long sleeve shirts and taping the Nitrile gloves to the sleeves to ensure no gaps and using the latex over those. It took a couple of times before I got use to the extra layer but now it's just fine. You'll find that your hands stay dryer because of the shirt soaking up the excess moisture. I can leave the Nitrile gloves on all day with no problems at all and just change the latex as needed.

 

I thought my problem was just the epoxy, turns out it was the glass also. Seems I was barely touching the glass with my arms on those long cuts. Now I tape up whether I'm cutting glass or mixing epoxy. For awhile there I thought I might not be able to work on composite planes because the itching was so bad. Not a problem of itching since and that's been close to 3 years.

 

Bruce

Best regards,

 

Bruce Sturgill

http://www.pursuitofflight.com

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I thought my problem was just the epoxy, turns out it was the glass also. Seems I was barely touching the glass with my arms on those long cuts. Now I tape up whether I'm cutting glass or mixing epoxy. For awhile there I thought I might not be able to work on composite planes because the itching was so bad. Not a problem of itching since and that's been close to 3 years.

 

Thank you, oh wise one. It sounds like I'm on the right track. I'm asking for a shop coat (along with a clipboard and a pair of those glasses with the duct tape) for Christmas to help avoid ruining another fine t-shirt. (my wardrobe is really starting to suffer.) I'll be doing a lot of epoxy work over the next couple of days so I should know if this is going to take care of it. I wrapped my CS Spar (ch 14 step 7) Tuesday night and could feel the back of my fingers starting to brak out as I worked ........ inside the gloves.

 

I may try wearing one latex glove while I'm doing some non-epoxy stuff just to try and narrow the suspects ....... but I really think it's the epoxy.

T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18

Velocity/RG N951TM

Mann's Airplane Factory

We add rocket's to everything!

4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done

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... always use latex gloves when handling epoxy ... I don't know if the epoxy is permiating the gloves or I'm developing an alergy to latex or ...... maybe it's the powder in the gloves?

Apparently you have ignored all the information available in the mailing list archives indicating that latex gloves don't do much of anything to keep epoxy off of your skin (not to mention the allergies that develop to the powder and the latex itself).

 

For the 759th time, you should be using heavy butyl gloves (put cotton liners inside them and vinyl/latex disposables outside to protect the expensive butyl), or disposable butyl gloves, or at LEAST nitrile disposables - put a few layers on and peel them off as the layup progresses and they get gunked up.

 

Latex is merde for epoxy/organic solvent protection - don't use it.

 

Freaking forum software. Can't say sh*t. At least it doesn't know French.

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Apparently you have ignored all the information available in the mailing list archives indicating that latex gloves don't do much of anything to keep epoxy off of your skin (not to mention the allergies that develop to the powder and the latex itself).

.

Either that or didn't find it. :)

....... nah, I'm just ignoring it.

 

 

Freaking forum software. Can't say sh*t. At least it doesn't know French.

I spell it 'sh!t'. Ha! My French lessons finally paid off!

T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18

Velocity/RG N951TM

Mann's Airplane Factory

We add rocket's to everything!

4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done

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.......you should be using heavy butyl gloves (put cotton liners inside them and vinyl/latex disposables outside to protect the expensive butyl......

Well, I'm on my way to and itch-free zone. Thanks to McMaster-Carr, I have a couple pair of GOOD gloves on the way as well as a couple pair of Nitrile sleeves. If this takes care of the problem then it's worth every cent ............ if not then it looks like I'll be down at the Army/Navy surplus store looking for a chemical suit. :D (do you have anything in plaid?)

 

For the 472nd time ........... thanks for the input!

T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18

Velocity/RG N951TM

Mann's Airplane Factory

We add rocket's to everything!

4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done

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The fact that the itching is restricted to your hands is a fair indication (although not conclusive) that your problem is contact (either allergy or other)

 

Without getting into the argument of latex vs others, one thing that comes to mind, especially when you are doing large layups is the fact that you have to cut the glass in preparation.

 

It is vital that you wear gloves of some sort (latex) during this operation. Might not be a bad idea to wear a face mask. Cutting the glass creates a multitude of tiny chards of glass that you can't see, but become embedded in your pores and can itch like crazy. A skin barrier can attempt to fill those pores and reduce the problem but then you have the possible glass contamination by the product.

 

Wear the gloves with cotton liners, replace them when the liners get moist.

 

I personally have been using latex (unpowdered) since 1980. I change them often and have never had a dermatological or systemic allergy problem.

I Canardly contain myself!

Rich :D

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I personally have been using latex (unpowdered) since 1980. I change them often and have never had a dermatological or systemic allergy problem.

No one ever has an allergic reaction until they do. A history of not having one is not a predictor of future non-reactions.

 

As a doctor, you should be acutely aware of this, and not recommend known allergens (latex gloves) for use, especially when they're far less capable of keeping the organics in the epoxy off of the skin. When butyl or nitrile is easily available and does NOT allow the allergens in the epoxy to leak through, and is not an allergen itself, why would anyone use latex?

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I spell it 'sh!t'. Ha! My French lessons finally paid off!

Off-topic.

 

My website has a rudimentary filter. For some reason every time I was writing about airplanes it kept getting the word "pit" showing up. It was removing the cock from cockpit! :)

Drew Chaplin (aka the Foam Whisperer)

---

www.Cozy1200.com - I'm a builder now! :cool:

---

Brace for impact...

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For what it's worth. Here's my scheme.

For smaller general day to day layup:

Disposable Nitrile with latex on top. Change the latex as needed. I do tend to use the Nitrile a few times. I occasionally add baby power to my hands to help get the gloves on as my hands tend to sweat easily.

On larger layups:

If I'm in short sleeves, I coat my arms with barrier cream for the VERY occasional touching of epoxy. Bump of the elbow, drop of epoxy on the forearm sort of thing. I do wipe it off as soon as possible. I've recently started wearing cotton liners to help absorb sweat and let my hands breath. Then a layer of Nitrile and finally latex.

 

No issues yet, but as Marc's just said, past results can't be used to project future expectations.

 

(Ya, sound like what my financial adviser said last year before I put some money into some mutual funds (aka toilet))

Drew Chaplin (aka the Foam Whisperer)

---

www.Cozy1200.com - I'm a builder now! :cool:

---

Brace for impact...

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What Marc says about latex.... they're basically worthless. Another plus for the nitrile is that they are significantly thicker generally, and more durable to snags.

 

On the "rest" of the protection front, consider Tyvek sleeves, lab coats, or go whole-hog and get the jumpsuits. You can reuse them a bunch of times, so a case of 25 will easily last you several years. We use them at work for cleanroom activities, and they're great. As a bonus, they are very think so you can pull the gloves over the sleeves. If we're going to be doing lots of very mechanical work in the cleanroom we go for one more bit, which is to tape the gloves over the sleeves.

 

As for the comment that localized itching is indicative of a localized problem, I would urge strong caution. Local allergic reaction can be followed by very significant systemic reaction, and the progression is not predictable, other than to say that eventually it WILL happen.

Kevin R. Walsh & Michael Antares

Cozy Mk-IV #413

N753CZ

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No one ever has an allergic reaction until they do. A history of not having one is not a predictor of future non-reactions.

 

As a doctor, you should be acutely aware of this, and not recommend known allergens (latex gloves) for use, especially when they're far less capable of keeping the organics in the epoxy off of the skin. When butyl or nitrile is easily available and does NOT allow the allergens in the epoxy to leak through, and is not an allergen itself, why would anyone use latex?

If you noticed, I specifically stated that I did not want to comment on the latex/nonlatex allergy barrier potential but only gave my personal example.

 

This was not an endorsement of latex to be used as a barrier. Yes, it is true that you don't have an allergic reaction until you do, it is also true that all do not have allergic reactions to the same allergen. Were this true, we would all have allergies to breathing the epoxy fumes, we would all have allergies to even wearing latex gloves, we all would have hay fever, we all would be allergic to our own sweat, we all would be allergic to all of the antibiotics and most medications. Etc Etc.

 

Susceptibility to allergies is an individual thing, not a given. Latex allergies depend, to a certain extent on the quality of the rubber used in the gloves. Even with the poor quality gloves (cheap), used by many, the rate of allergy is very small. How many dental patients have had a real allergy to these gloves? How many Prostate exams resulted in an allergic reaction? How many condoms have caused allergic reactions? More telling is the relatively small number of health care workers who wear these things, almost constantly, and have for decades, who have never had a reaction attributable to the latex itself. Latex is still the material of choice for clinical gloves in the general health care community.

 

That said, I do subscribe, in general with your philosophy of wearing the best protection that you can. With the assumption that you may be allergic. Or absolutely if there is a history of allergy to a material.

 

I personally can eat all of the strawberries that I want as well as all of the peanuts. I do not, however recommend this to individuals allergic to those materials.

 

I did find, however that the intense itching that I experienced in the beginning of my glassing career, which I thought might have been an allergy, disappeared completely when I started wearing gloves while I cut the glass off of the roll, and when I Feined or abraded cured epoxy/glass. It was, for me, obviously a mechanical irritation.

 

 

Happy holidays, Marc, If I don't talk to you before.:)

I Canardly contain myself!

Rich :D

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An alergic reaction to the epoxy we use to build these treasures is my biggest fear. When I built my Longeze 20+ years ago nitrile and latex gloves were not as easy to come by as they are now. I did all my work bare handed and slopped the stuff on everything. All my drink cups had epoxy finger prints on them. Now I am alot more careful I use the latex and the Nitrile gloves. I find the latex more comfortable and they fit better. When my current box is gone though I will only use the nitrile. I know alergic time is comming I just hope it comes after I build a couple more planes. STeve build on

Steve Harmon

Lovin Life in Idaho

Cozy IV Plans #1466 N232CZ

http://websites.expercraft.com/bigsteve/

Working on Chapter 19,21

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Hey ...... thanks everyone. I have read posts in the past about using nitrile vs. latex but there never was an explanation as to why. I just figured is was due to the possibility of being alergic to the latex. I never realized that the reason came down to the protection (or lack thereof) was the real issue.

 

I have a lot of work to knock out between now and Monday so I'm believing the new measures will make the build more enjoyable. :cool:

T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18

Velocity/RG N951TM

Mann's Airplane Factory

We add rocket's to everything!

4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done

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How many dental patients have had a real allergy to these gloves?

Not me.

How many Prostate exams resulted in an allergic reaction?

I get the shivers, sweat profusely...

How many condoms have caused allergic reactions?

Never looked...

 

:D

Rick Hall; MK-IV plans #1477; cozy.zggtr.org

Build status: 1-7, bits of 8-9, 10, 14 done! Working on engine/prop/avionics.
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If you noticed, I specifically stated that I did not want to comment on the latex/nonlatex allergy barrier potential but only gave my personal example.

But your personal example gave the impression that latex is not an issue.

 

There are many people that have never had any reaction to bathing in epoxy and acetone - Mike Melvill is one of them. He scared the crap out of me by doing a small layup with me with no gloves on, then washed his hands off in the acetone bath. When I freaked out, he said he'd been doing that for 26 years and was fine. Would ANYONE in their right mind recommend that? You might as well be mainlining the acetone and the volatiles in the epoxy. All that experience taught me was that flying was not the only thing that Mike was both talented AND lucky in.

 

5 out of 6 people that play russian roulette live. Still not a recommended path.

 

...More telling is the relatively small number of health care workers who wear these things, almost constantly, and have for decades, who have never had a reaction attributable to the latex itself. Latex is still the material of choice for clinical gloves in the general health care community.

While you're correct that they're still the glove of preference in health care, you're incorrect about the prevalence. According to:

 

http://www.aafp.org/afp/980101ap/reddy.html

 

and:

 

http://www.latexallergyresources.org/Newsletter/newsletterArticle.cfm?NewsletterID=29

 

a very substantial number of folks, especially in the health care field (10% - 17%) are allergic to latex. The second link indicates that 8.2% of those tested exhibited latex sensitivity. I hardly consider that a negligible amount.

 

At any rate, as TMann understood, the real issue with the latex gloves is not that you might be allergic to them, but that they don't do a damn thing to keep you from getting sensitized to the epoxy, or absorbing organic solvents. They may be wonderful at keeping bacteria and viruses out, which is why they were originally used in the health care field, but they don't do scheiss wrt epoxy and organic solvents. You might as well just wear the cotton liners.

 

Tradition is a hard thing to change - even after pointing the facts out to the safety folks at Scaled, most of the gloves used in our shop are latex.

 

See:

 

http://www.case.edu/finadmin/does/web/ChemSafety/gloves.htm

 

for info on the inapplicability of latex to chemical protection.

 

Happy holidays, Marc, If I don't talk to you before.:)

Thanks - to you too, Rich.
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I stopped using latex from the start because I just didn't like the funny latex odor. Vinyl gloves did not hold up to solvents, so now I only use Nitrile.

 

I have also found that my hands itch after long layups, however I believe that is mostly due to sweat building up under the gloves, particularly when it is warm. for long layups I like to switch to a new pair of gloves after a while and take a little break.

 

I second the wish list item, shop apron, shop jacket or coveralls. I have now far to many shirts with epoxy stains.

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An alternative to sleeves is the strechy part of worn out tube socks. Just cut off the foot part. This way you don't need to use masking tape to seal around the wrists. Also since I only wear a T-shirt when working, they protect my forearms from the occasional epoxy drips.

Rui Lopes

Cozy MkIV S/N: 1121

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The sleeves I am referring to are the kind with the elastic at the wrist and are coated in nitrile. I got a couple sets of the gloves and sleeves so any guest help can be protected as well.

 

Fiberglass itself doesn't bother me. I can handle insulation all day and never notice it but I know there are some who can't even watch an owens corning ad on TV without itching.

 

It's funny but the areas that are giving me the most distress is the soft skin areas (inside wrist, back of hands and fingers.) I can see that as I move through the build it just gets worse. I don't want to see my project end up on eBay because I became to sensitized to the materials. (Hey mommy look! There's a spaceman in that garage!)

T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18

Velocity/RG N951TM

Mann's Airplane Factory

We add rocket's to everything!

4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done

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!!!DISCLAIMER DISCLAIMER!!!

None of the opinions in this answer should be construed, in any way to indicate my approval or disapproval of the use of latex gloves.

 

 

 

But your personal example gave the impression that latex is not an issue.

 

 

Such was not my intent, if it were misinterpreted, or possibly misstated, it were a grevious fault, and through you I am paying for it greviously.

 

 

 

 

There are many people that have never had any reaction to bathing in epoxy and acetone - Mike Melvill is one of them.

 

I too am appalled by unprotected spex (glass). As you so aptly stated, epoxy on the skin followed by acetone is mainlining. My main concern with this is the effect that these products have on the organs of the body, secondarily to the allergic potential if it exists in the individual.

 

 

 

While you're correct that they're still the glove of preference in health care, you're incorrect about the prevalence. According to:

 

http://www.aafp.org/afp/980101ap/reddy.html

 

and:

 

http://www.latexallergyresources.org/Newsletter/newsletterArticle.cfm?NewsletterID=29

 

 

One of the above sources, The American Latex Allergy Association quotes the following:

 

 

 

"Latex proteins are water soluble. Manufacturing processes including washing, chlorination and other treatments can reduce the burden of latex protein antigen. Low protein, powder-free gloves have minimal potential for sensitization in those who have not yet become sensitized to latex. "

 

In the immortal words of The Fantstics, "So you see, the sort of rape depends on what you pay!

 

 

 

 

5 out of 6 people that play russian roulette live. Still not a recommended path.

 

Yes, but if the above is to be trusted, (which is as questionable as any findings in literature), the available empty cartridge spaces of the kelachnikof has been increased from 6 cartridges to practically an infinite number.

 

 

 

While you're correct that they're still the glove of preference in health care, you're incorrect about the prevalence.

One of the problems that clinicians have is the fact that many times, practical experience contradicts printed literature. I can't speak about the literature in the engineering field, however in the Medical arts, I have found that many times it is necessary to be an expert the in subject about which you are reading. Literature is based on references and the references based on others. Many times for reasons which I won't go into here, authors cherry pick references to substantiate their preconceived conclusions.

 

Additionally, unless there is a differentiation between exposure to powdered vs non-powdered masked vs non-masked, type of glove, length of wearing etc etc (notice all of the etcs) the conclusion is suspect. We do not all wear size 10 shoes.

 

This is not to say that latex allergies don't exist, but it is to say that the stats of the research that you captioned may not be right. In my admittedly non-scientific polling, I have found few latex allergies in those that I know.

 

 

 

At any rate, as TMann understood, the real issue with the latex gloves is not that you might be allergic to them, but that they don't do a damn thing to keep you from getting sensitized to the epoxy, or absorbing organic solvents. They may be wonderful at keeping bacteria and viruses out, which is why they were originally used in the health care field, but they don't do scheiss wrt epoxy and organic solvents. You might as well just wear the cotton liners.

Now we are getting into the real skin, irritated or not, of the problem

 

From my reading, although somewhat limited, latex and nitrile both serve as barriers to our bad stuff. The real measure is that of penetration time, that is how long the material has to be on the barrier before some of it gets through.

It seems like Nitrile has about 2X the staying power. HOWEVER there is a range, depending on the thickness of the glove and the manufacturing technique.

 

Interestingly enough, the lower end of nitrile is at the same level as the upper level of latex.

 

So it goes back to the quote from the Fantastics mentioned before.

 

In reality, it seems, if you are going to do your layups by hand (IE have your gloved surfaces saturated with epoxy), use cast iron gloves. If you use the glove to protect you from the occasional "oops" then you have the choice of changing latex gloves often or changing nitrile gloves somewhat less often for the same amount of protection... of so it seems.

 

 

So in conclusion, whatever glove you choose, and for whatever reason, change them frequently cause they all leak:mad:

 

Now we can start a discussion of appropriate breathing apparatus to be used when dealing with the goo!!!!!!!!!!!

 

By the way, I don't think many of us realize the time and effort that Marc puts into his answers, in the above format, to make it easier for us to understand. It is a massive job, Thank you Marc for doing it.

I Canardly contain myself!

Rich :D

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Such was not my intent, if it were misinterpreted, or possibly misstated, it were a grevious fault, and through you I am paying for it greviously.

And as you well know, Rich, making people pay grievously for their errors is what I live for :-). God knows I make myself pay for mine...

 

In the immortal words of The Fantastics, "So you see, the sort of rape depends on what you pay!

Not the quote I would have used, but I get the point.

 

Yes, but if the above is to be trusted, (which is as questionable as any findings in literature), the available empty cartridge spaces of the kelachnikof has been increased from 6 cartridges to practically an infinite number.

I was assuming a revolver - the standard tool of RR players. It's very difficult to spin the chambers on a Kalashnikov.

 

...Many times for reasons which I won't go into here, authors cherry pick references to substantiate their preconceived conclusions.

Pretty much like engineers, or other human beings.

 

So in conclusion, whatever glove you choose, and for whatever reason, change them frequently cause they all leak:mad:

I agree with just about everything you've said in this particular message.

 

Now we can start a discussion of appropriate breathing apparatus to be used when dealing with the goo!!!!!!!!!!!

Been there, done that. Any search of the forum and COZY mailing list archives will turn up voluminous entries on the subject.

 

By the way, I don't think many of us realize the time and effort that Marc puts into his answers, in the above format, to make it easier for us to understand. It is a massive job, Thank you Marc for doing it.

Do unto others, and all that. Thanks for noticing. Having good typing skills (thanks, summer school in 1973) helps a lot.
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Tom, I have the same sort of problems you describe and when it happens the only solution I found is to keep my hands over a cup of boiling water until I can stand it then immediatly in cold water.

cortisone creams do not help at all.

antistaminics work a little bit better.

now I use nitrile gloves only but they do not work much better then latex gloves.

my problem is not the contact with latex but certainly with epoxy, but looking at a used pair of nitryle gloves(the next day when epoxy is cured) it seems like epoxy is able to get in touch with skin.

the only solution I found for long layups is to wear cotton gloves under nitryle gloves and tape my wrists with masking tape.

now that is winter it is much better.

good luck.

nico

Roads? Where we're going we don't need roads. (Dr. Emmett Brown)

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I am not as cavalier as Mr. Melvill, and I do use nitrate gloves but I have never had any issue with working with the epoxy of raw glass cloth and, thankfully I am all but done with that phase fo my build....hopefully. I did not know how lucky I was.

 

However, cutting curred glass, yeeeeaouch. Now that can itch.

 

All the best,

 

Chris

Christopher Barber

Velocity SE/FG w/yoke. Zoom, zoom, zoom.

www.LoneStarVelocity.com

 

Live with Passion...

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