Long EZ or Cozy III

[Lynn Erickson]

Thx Lynn,

 

How much room is there in the back of the Cozy III to reinforce the turtleback... can it be made to look similar to that of the Long EZ… Maybe place a longer split canopy like some of the EZs on a Cozy III and modify the turtleback accordingly?

 

I would appreciate if someone as the chapters of the plan that relates to the fuselage of the Cozy III available in electronic format (PDF) so that I can look them over.. and see if the Cozy III turtle back can be modified and still be structurally sound.

 

The more I read the info a gather... the more I'm leaning toward a Cozy III with a modified fuselage... not its shape but rather the way it is put to getter/reinforced (see above). And before people start saying the engine is going to fall off, this would be done after careful reengineering of the structure (if at all possible)...

 

Also, what is the span of the Canard of the Cozy III compared to the one of the LE… and are they both Ronzc…

The canopy on the long ez is a single clear plexiglass bubble the cozy turtle deck is the same as the cozy IV it is composite and has windows. it not structural to the plane only to itself. it could be made with as much or as little clear window as you need.

the Cozy III has the exact same wing and canard as the long ez. the span is 26.1 Ft. Everything aerodynamic is the same it is just the wider front seat area that was changed. slows it down about 7 kts at top speed. both the long ez and the cozy III can use the Roncz canard. it was an option to build a roncz on both when it came out. many longs and cozy IIIs were built before the roncz design came out and they fly fine, some are better then others in rain , but just not a big deal.

[SAF_Zoom]

Thanks you very much for the info.

[Cozy Girrrl]

The firewall is approximately the same (a little wider?) but the engine mount is different, several inches wider at the firewall.

...Chrissi

[Edge 513]

Speaking of CoyIII's and widths.

Burrall Sanders made a CozyIII ,with I believe, a 6 inch wider front seat dim. Extended the nose and put a big haulin' azz 360 in it....and claims near warp factor performance. I dont disagree with him...by the numbers it looks like it should be a crankin' machine!! I love the wasp shaped rear end of the CozyIII. The Cozy IV is wider and at the max end of the visual allowance for my tastes.

I had a picture somewheres of the backseat of a CozyIII. You could fit Fat Albert in that monsterous single backseat.

 

Incidentally Chrissi- very clever about the 2 Nats wide comment. =) Possibly truer than we might imagine? Remember the Front seat weight arbitrary "limit" at the designers discretion. Hey, they are all nice planes and he did a great job.

[WTJohnson]

Thanks guys, but when I say VERY light aerobatics it is more in terms of relitavely high G turnsa and Scissors.

 

I may do a few Split S and Immelmans... but that is it... I don't plan of flying it inverted...

 

Anybody here piloted both, the LE and Cozy III or IV and can give me a first hand account of how both planes behave.

How about a comparison between a Varieze and a Cozy III ?

I have quite a bit of time in a Varieze(700+hrs) and less than ten in a Cozy III. My only thoughts were to fly the Cozy like a bit larger and faster Varieze. This was decided on my first take off when I blew thru the pattern altitude while trying to set the roll trim ! The engine was 'somewhat' larger than my Varieze ! Very stable plane to fly. I do not believe the transition from one to the other is an issue. However, the Varieze without a fuel pump has to maintain positive G's, so my split S's and rolls were done while maintaining positive G's. I did not do any rolls, etc. in the Cozy III just a few steep turns.

WTJohnson

[Cozy Girrrl]

-IF- We were starting from scratch today I think we'd build a hybrid of a Cozy III and Cozy IV.

 

Cozy III: (doublewide LE)

(+)narrower firewall and tapered aft fuselage feeds prop better

(+)nice roomy back seat for one

(-)back seat visibility terrible

(-)front seat too narrow

(-)really dislike the LE/Cozy III engine mounting method

(-)uses LE style main gear mounting

 

Cozy IV: (lots new design by Nat)

(+) more front seat room

(+) good main gear attach design

(+) great engine mounting design

(+) roomy engine compartment

(+) big back seat windows

(-) too much firewall/cowling in front of prop

(-) back seat not realistic for adults

 

Still, Velocity is a much bigger plane with a good back seat for two adults so going larger does work at a price.

A cozy with more taper aft and a realistic back seat for one would work well or take a hint from Steve Wright and stagger the seating, solve the front seat crowding, CG shift, back seat and aft taper.

But then it would be a whole new design.

...Chrissi

[SAF_Zoom]

Cozy Girrrl can you elaborate on the engine mounting difference between the III and IV.

[Cozy Girrrl]

The Cozy III is like a LE, 1/8" aluminum angle extrusions bolted and floxed to the upper longerons/top and bottom of the main spar. They stick out through the firewall and if you are smart you install them when you have an engine mount bolted to them. The firewall end of the engine mount is four heavy wall tubes that get drilled through the walls and the angles and bolted on with two AN-3 bolts per corner.

So you have nearly 300 lb of engine cantilevered out there with very little vertical separation of the mounting points on the firewall.

 

The Cozy IV mounting points are conventional tube/washer stubs though bolted to the firewall. The firewall has crush plates installed and considerable laminations to spread the load into the surrounding structures.

The Mk-IV upper mounting points are above the spar and outboard as far as possible on a wide firewall. The lower mounting points are down at the lower corners by the lower longerons, lots of vertical separation below and diagonal bracing supporting the mount.

See our web site and look at the Long-Ez dynafocal mounts -VS- the Mk-IV dynafocal mounts.

...Chrissi

[Drew Swenson]

And the StaggerEz is a three seater with baggage

[SAF_Zoom]

Thx for the infos

[Super-eze]

Although I really like the Long EZ, the more I read about the LE the more I realize that the fit may be just a bit too tight. So my immediate reaction was let's make it wider... and lets fly over gross...

 

My question: If the cozy uses the same aerodynamics as the long ez and can lift a higher gross, then why would making the long ez wider require flying it over gross? Is it just HP?

[Super-eze]

Although I really like the Long EZ, the more I read about the LE the more I realize that the fit may be just a bit too tight. So my immediate reaction was let's make it wider... and lets fly over gross...

Tring to figure out the reply with quote.

[Drew Swenson]

Bottom line is that you need to try on a Longez and Cozy for size prior to building.

 

Surprisingly, I find the frontseat of the Longeze to be more roomy than the front seat of a Cozy MKIV.

 

The more roominess factor of the Long has to do with a combination of:

--strake to fuselage intersection. In the Long, you really have a lot of access to this space to put your elbows. Which gives you a feeling of a pretty wide craft already. In the Cozy, the strake is not exactly elbow friendly and your right elbow has a passenger sitting there.

--Longeron placement. It touches my shoulder in Cozy (which I don't like). In the Longez, I never noticed it.

--Canopy. You bump your head a lot more under the Cozy canopy. If anything, you tilt your head slightly inward to avoid hitting the canopy. Wayne has a mod on the canopy which eliminates/reduces this problem. No problems in the Cozy.

 

Bottom line, the Longez is already a roomy airplane in the font seat. You would have to have really big shoulders or a really big butt not to fit. You need to actually sit in the plane to determine if a parameter is not working for you.

 

The Cozy MKIV has a longer wingspan, beefier landing gear, and a bigger motor. Also the G limits also depend upon the weight.

[Edge 513]

Regarding the Cozy's elbow room. As is common knowledge, there are many installing the wider elbow, Longeze strakes in the Cozy [aka, Cozygirrrls Strakes] so that side to side roomieness is occuring in a Cozy. For reference, I am 5-11 and have wide shoulders and do not touch the longerons, but with the wider elbow strake ergonomics, the width of the plane is enhanced greatly.

Bottom line as everybody says, sit in these planes and then you can judge. If you cant, wait, if it is that important. Simpleton me, I just thought a side by side canard airplane was a gift from God, as I had given up on the thought of building a canard and getting a pilots license in the 1980's when my wife said she wouldn't like to sit in back on trips, and be all ''alone'', back there. I never knew a side by side canard had been done and available until 2005 when I ran across a picture on the internet and within a few days ordered chaps 4,5,6,7 without even seeing one in person. About a month and a half later I found out about and attended the Canards de Mayo event in northern Calif. A Cozy IV flier there let me sit in his plane and I was confirmed in my decision to have a CozyIV. I also confirmed the wider strakes would be a nice addition. That summer, I went to Osh, met Marc and he was generous in letting me fly both in back and in the right seat to and from Fondeulac [sp]. To me the side by side seating is a must-have feature for enjoyment of the traveling experience. Maybe not to you. The sleek shape of the Cozy is a bit more favorable in my eyes than a Velocity[except for Constable Chris' Velocity =)], and much more affordable, so thankfully the sleeker plane and cost effective airframe went together. The only thing I did visually to my Cozy was extend the nose, and that has been done to the CozyIII also. The CozyIII has the side by side seating, and a huge amount of stowage for gear/luggage in that backseat. Most everybody who has a Long, wishes there was more room for stowage and many end up putting wing pods on to allow you to carry more than a backpack and some small strake packages. I have seen some couples offload after arriving at an airshow and the GIB comes out of the backseat greatful to not be cramped or crammed together with everything they brought in back.[small bag under her knees/on top of her feet/on top of her lap/stuffed in each strake opening-to the sides of each knee] Some even UPS their belongings by shipping to where they will be staying for their lodging. I only found out about all this after I had started building. I still think a long nosed LongEze is WAYCOOL looking, just not quite as versatile for my needs. But maybe just right for your needs. So just food for thought. The III would be more versatile, just add the Cozygirrrl strakes, maybe widen the seatback width 2 inches to match a MarkIV and you've got a winner. The side by side seating is something that you really need to consider. I'll go on record as saying that yet again. I wouldn't build the III into a tandem seating arrangement[you cant get rid of the center heat duct anyway]. It's way more fun and practical, side by side, as aside from nice eye contact, you can share the stick with your girlfriend and she can relieve you for a while on long trips. As a sidenote, if you were to become incapacitated, the right seater can land the plane.

YMMV

[TMann]

I am 5-11 and have wide shoulders -----

Really ........ you seem shorter on the forum.

(awk ...... get back to work T!)

[Edge 513]

Me.. have a "short complex"...naw....No Top Gun music for me!

[it's almost 8 AM- I better get to work as well.]

BTW- isnt TomCruise a short guy? They always put him next to similar sized people so you neverwould really know. I guess the title sounded better than Maveric, "Short Gun".

[Big Steve]

I guess I better jump in here and express an opinion. Having built and flown a Longeze and now 75% done with a Cozy Iv airframe I have a definant opinion on seating. Especially since my two adult boys have been home for the holidays. I like the seating arrangement of my old Longeze a lot more than the cozy IV. I find the Cozy tight and I dont like the way I have to get in and out. Getting out of the longeze was eze put both elbow on longerons lift and you slid right out. Not so in the cozy with no place to put right elbow. I raised my canopy in the cozy so head room is not an issue. The tunnel where your legs go is tighter and it is a lot harder to get your feet around the rudder pedals. I have not yet cut out for the strakes this might loosen things up a bit but if I had my way as a pilot. It is pilot in front co pilot or passenger in back. Now so you dont think I am insane because I am building a cozy. I like the thought of being able to teach my sons how to fly could not do that in the Longeze. I think my wife will much prefer to fly with me upfront. Lots of room in the back for all my junk. I can hardly sit in the back seat neither of my boys could take it back there for more than an hour. They are taller than me but skinnier. I look at the Cozy IV as a fat Longeze with more room and a bigger motor. I plan on building a couple more airplanes before I kick the bucket and one of them will be a hot rod Longeze. But I have to finish this Cozy IV first. Build on STeve

[Lynn Erickson]

I have not yet cut out for the strakes this might loosen things up a bit but if I had my way as a pilot.

not really, I have the strakes cut out and they are a great place for your elbow when you are sitting in the plane and flying around the hanger. but when actually flying you will find that your elbow is on the armrest so you can hold onto the stick in a cozy or the throttle in my case. almost every flight I notice that I am not using the cutout and so I try them again only to find it is not comfortable during the flight.

[Edge 513]

I happened upon that observation when I mocked up my strakes and the wider elbow position, so I concluded I needed to build my own stick grips as a solution. Having done so, I built my own grips so that they ''work'' while flying in cruise so as to allow me to grip the top like a knob and still work the push to talk with my forefinger. This will allow me to keep my elbow out in the strake [as I have mocked t up anyway. read that as mocked, not mucked...done some of that too.] I think the Ray Allen ones might be okay with the elbow out/ hold it like a knob config, but I wanted the PTT, so my hand wouldn't have to move.

[Big Steve]

Edge:

 

There you go being a genius again and thinking outside the box. If I remember my elbows got kind of cold when I stuck them in the strakes for long periods of time. It has been a very long time since I last flew in a Longeze. STeve build on

[Cozy Girrrl]

not really, I have the strakes cut out and they are a great place for your elbow when you are sitting in the plane and flying around the hanger. but when actually flying you will find that your elbow is on the armrest so you can hold onto the stick in a cozy or the throttle in my case. almost every flight I notice that I am not using the cutout and so I try them again only to find it is not comfortable during the flight.

Vance found just the opposite with his Cozy III that he's got some 1000 plus hours in without the expanded strakes then Charlie Airsman sent him a couple of molded bump outs, not quite our version but at least more accomodating than the Cozy III. Vance loved them at first but since they were only single wall without the insulating benfit of foam they were quite cold. He's resolved that and now really likes the "elbow room".

Don't know what to say other than in several rides with other people I found the Mk-IV and even the slightly wider Aerocanard to be lacking in real and apparent room but widening the fuselage was not an option.

We don't really "sell" the idea. If people are considering widening the fuselage or concerned about fitting in one we tell them to stop on by and try it on for size before taking other measures. It works for most of them.

Regards, Chrissi

[argoldman]

Depending on where you like to place your elbow when flying, the expanded strakes may or may not give you more room.

 

However, the expanded strakes make the interior of the aircraft feel much larger which may be more important than the actual room, especially for the GIS or BIS. If desired, they also give you room to stow a hand held com, fire extinguisher, or lunch in easy reach.

[Drew Swenson]

The CozyMKIV longeron/strake geometry is somewhat different than the Longez's. Not sure what it is----but in the longez, it was very comfortable to just slip your elbow into the strake. Definately, the longeron is closer to the shoulder in the Cozy (and maybe lower?). End result is that your elbow does not really fit comfortably in the strake---can't bend all that well from the shoulders to fit in there. I remember the Longez being no problem---and would quite frequently fly with both elbows in the strakes (and not touching the stick all that much).

 

Also as already pointed out---in the Cozy, your feet/legs are kind of squished together. In the longez, your legs are comfortably spread on either side of the nose gear wheel.

 

Someone made a comment about the seating arrangement being a preference---I agree-----my original comments on this matter really had to do with the comment on big guys going to a Cozy to get more room. I believe that a Longez is more spacious on the inside for pilot sitting comfort.

 

I traded out for the Cozy for the extra seats (expanding family).