Project: Intruder

[Velocity_Russia]

......better chance it will be priced outside of most builder's means. Anyone know how many Berkut kits were sold?

Information from Infinity website:

 

$32,635.00 [ $1000 refundable (no risk -- money goes into a Trust / Escrow Account) minimum deposit per Infinity 1 Quick Build Kit order ]. Deliveries will begin about 6 months after the tooling molds are completed (only $500K to go).

 

-------------------------------------

I think JD need another 495 deposites to start production Same situation as with DeltaHawk.

 

JD not sold retractable gears for my project one year ago. No problem, we will produce himself. It's just time delay.

 

P.S. I have not any business plans about this airplane, it just hobby for me.

[Super-eze]

Don't we have an open ez kit already in the US? Sure we do... This guy makes great wings and canards, that guy cnc's foam, those girls makes great metal sub-components and about 10 people are working on fuse molds in secret. All we have to do is put it together and figure out the price. With distributed suppliers it can't even go out of business.

[Cozy Girrrl]

Yes! You must know characteristics of foam exactly to be sure. We have multilayers several days filling. Foam used only to fix scratchs of styrofoams that we have in big quantity. Filling of each box take approx one week with heating of each layer. Be extreemly accurate with expanding foam, in other case you can destroy your mold!

 

Thanks Cozy Girrrl for good question!

Its nice to see somebody doing it right, very nice!

...Chrissi

[Super-eze]

......better chance it will be priced outside of most builder's means. Anyone know how many Berkut kits were sold?

What is the price of the RV6 or higher kit. There poping out left and right so the price must be market sustainable. A 2 place composite canard kit can't compete with that? Why did the Berkut fail? Was the kit price too high or did it take too long to come to market? Both? Why is Velocity viable and berkut was not?

[sam holman]

It is global economy. Lowest wages, cost, materials, transport and a paid for factory. If you do not have this you can not compete. I can only think of a few A:irked: Asian countries where it is possible. By nature we are loners and this makes the above even harder to achieve. All efforts that defy the global are true heroic stories of sacrifice and we are blessed to have them. S

[Velocity_Russia]

some new photos from today http://www.reaa.ru/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1189771013/570

After two weeks we will get honeycomb and will prepare to make bottom part of fuselage and strakes.

Strange, but we get price on honeycomb better than on dyvinicell. I never compare that prices before.

[j hinchliffe]

Keep up the good work Guy's. I'm impressed with the progress so far and looking forward to seeing the finished product.

[SAF_Zoom]

What is the price of the RV6 or higher kit. There poping out left and right so the price must be market sustainable. A 2 place composite canard kit can't compete with that? Why did the Berkut fail? Was the kit price too high or did it take too long to come to market? Both? Why is Velocity viable and berkut was not?

Not the same niche... one's a 2 seater... the other one 4...

 

I'm sure that if a 4 seat Berkut was available from day one (along with the 2 seat version) that the design would still be produce today (either in kit or plan form). Would probably mean that fewer Cozy IV would have been built...

[steve]

some new photos from today http://www.reaa.ru/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1189771013/570

After two weeks we will get honeycomb and will prepare to make bottom part of fuselage and strakes.

Strange, but we get price on honeycomb better than on dyvinicell. I never compare that prices before.

мы вы продавали к миру отверстия?

[lhendrick]

мы вы продавали к миру отверстия?

Great now I need a secret decoder ring to read the message!

[TMann]

Great now I need a secret decoder ring to read the message!

No ..... just Babelfish on www.altavista.com

But that won't help you in this case. It translates to nonsense.

[Vortal]

мы вы продавали к миру отверстия?

 

We sell to the world do you have openings?

 

(google tranlate)

[Velocity_Russia]

мы вы продавали к миру отверстия?

 

Right translation:

Do you sold holes in the world?

-------

 

Russian language is very complex. You can see the pictures of our project and post questions here. Russian forum, like here, have many special words, jokes and abbreviations.

[steve]

Right translation:

Do you sold holes in the world?

-------

 

Russian language is very complex. You can see the pictures of our project and post questions here. Russian forum, like here, have many special words, jokes and abbreviations.

will you be selling to the hole world? babal needs a babel-to-babal

[mak790]

Right translation:

Do you sold holes in the world?

Holes in the world? I've heard about holes in the cheese but in the world?

Russian language is very complex. You can see the pictures of our project and post questions here. Russian forum, like here, have many special words, jokes and abbreviations.

It' isn't so hard to learn (special for other slav) but that cyrylica.

After two weeks we will get honeycomb and will prepare to make bottom part of fuselage and strakes.

Some people think that honeycomb and wet/hand layup isn't the best connection (even if you use vacuum bag), honeycomb (nomex), prepreg, autoclave, etc that's differnt story. (but it's completly unnecessary for plane like that, waste of money) maybe only in the wings construction.

You might want to check out some Nemesis NXT gallery.

http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/composites/4152-nemesis-nxt-honeycomb.html

What do you think about Rohacell and Vinylester resin let's say Derakane 470-300. Both materials are for high temperature applications, so you dont need to worry about "darker" colours, white planes are boring.

[Velocity_Russia]

Holes in the world? I've heard about holes in the cheese but in the world?

 

It' isn't so hard to learn (special for other slav) but that cyrylica.

 

Some people think that honeycomb and wet/hand layup isn't the best connection (even if you use vacuum bag), honeycomb (nomex), prepreg, autoclave, etc that's differnt story. (but it's completly unnecessary for plane like that, waste of money) maybe only in the wings construction.

You might want to check out some Nemesis NXT gallery.

http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/composites/4152-nemesis-nxt-honeycomb.html

What do you think about Rohacell and Vinylester resin let's say Derakane 470-300. Both materials are for high temperature applications, so you dont need to worry about "darker" colours, white planes are boring.

I just give right translation of russian language from ths topic. I don't sense of it. дырка/отверстие = hole , открытия = openings This is totally different words .

 

What do you think about Rohacell and Vinylester resin let's say Derakane 470-300. Both materials are for high temperature applications, so you dont need to worry about "darker" colours, white planes are boring.

Unfortunately I don't know these materials. I never use it. We use other materials, not presented on US market.

 

We will use honeycombs in several reasons - weight and paint. My dream to have digital camouflage painting or grey. Using of honeycombs is more difficultly, but we can do it.

 

When I see this methods of assembling I say - No! When I reading "Velocity manual of assembling" all parts of manual begins from - "leveling your airplane".

 

http://www.silverstatenews.com/newssections/Aviation/nxtnov2002/pagesx1/page12.htm

 

This methods can be used only in garage or unique project. Some parts impossible to install with good quality without additional equipment. We will use patterns, building berth and other adaptation to make assembling faster, easier and more cheaply.

 

For example in Velocity kit we use special equipment like this (canard hinges install support):

 

[airnico]

Unfortunately I don't know these materials. I never use it. We use other materials, not presented on US market.

very interesting: may you talk me about these materials please?

 

My dream to have digital camouflage painting or grey.

what is a digital camouflage painting?why digital?

 

 

When I see this methods of assembling I say - No!

This methods can be used only in garage or unique project. Some parts impossible to install with good quality without additional equipment. We will use patterns, building berth and other adaptation to make assembling faster, easier and more cheaply.

For example in Velocity kit we use special equipment like this (canard hinges install support):

 

I agree and would like to see the equipment you are using but unfortunately the link you provided doesn't work.

[Velocity_Russia]

Digital camo

 

Mig-29

 

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/hyperstealths-fractal-camo-patterns-successfully-tested-for-aircraft-01716/

 

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread227171/pg1

 

I agree and would like to see the equipment you are using but unfortunately the link you provided doesn't work.

I correct it.

 

very interesting: may you talk me about these materials please?

We use another type of epoxy developed for us.

[mak790]

I just give right translation of russian language from ths topic. I don't sense of it. дырка/отверстие = hole , открытия = openings This is totally different words .

Yea, sorry I was making jokes about this online-translator.

Unfortunately I don't know these materials. I never use it. We use other materials, not presented on US market

Derakane it's a quite popular resin, it was used for example in Gassair III construction, and in many more. Vinylester resins are basically epoxy modified polyester resins.

The biggest adventage (in my opinion) for this resin is heat distortion temperature 150C, so you can paint your plane in very dark colours, like navy blue this guy is building 82% Corsair replica, He uses vinylester if I remember correctly.

http://www.corsair82.com/corsair/fuselage2/

 

Here is a datasheet for this Derakane

http://www.derakane.com/downloadServlet?docPath=DPAPP1.asco.ashland.com%5CData%5Cascc%5Cecomdocsasc.nsf%5C6C90238C0867F9A785256FCE004AB63A%5C%24FILE%5CMOMENTUM470-300.pdf

Vinylester works well for vacuum infuision methods but it isnt the best idea to use them with Carbon or Kevlar.

 

Here is a datasheet for Rohacell foam (but it's probably the most expensive foam on the market.)

http://www.emkayplastics.co.uk/roh71.htm

We will use honeycombs in several reasons - weight and paint. We use another type of epoxy developed for us.

I agree about weight, but I'm wondering what is a heat distorsion temp for your resin, could you tell us if is not a secret.

Using of honeycombs is more difficultly, but we can do it.

Yes for sure harder to work, but the good bond is the most important thing, are you going to make some honeycomb peel tests, (to check the bond, the skin plies can be peeled off and the failure shouldn't be in the bond between the core and the skin)

When I see this methods of assembling I say - No!

Yes of course but they had completly different targets, your target is to make plane (kit in the future) as simple to assembly as possible, they made only 6-7 Nemesis NXT, their target was to produce as light as possible as strong as possible and as fast as possible, if I remember corectly the current record for Nemesis is above 400MPH sea level, their plane ready to fly cost between 400-500.000$, so they didnt need to hurry with assembly.

Here is the Nemesis NXT in action

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZbQ4bBLGTo&feature=channel_page

But it's completely differnt league, prepreg, nomex etc.

 

btw here is a link to European supplier, they have Rohacell, Divinycell foam, many resins etc, you can compare prices.

http://www.havel-composites.com/index0.php?newlang=uk

 

Attachment is for Derakane 470-300

[TMann]

Vinylester resins are basically epoxy modified polyester resins.

 

My understanding is 'Great for boats ..... bad for planes.'

[mak790]

My understanding is 'Great for boats ..... bad for planes.'

Based on?, just compare Derakane mechanical properties with MGS mechanical properties, the biggest differnece is in heat distortion temp 70vs150C.

bad for planes

The Glassair III was a very "bad" plane, the weakest point of Glassair's construction was A-foam. (it's a "crappy" material).

But if someone dosen't like white planes, Vinylester is a good option. Of course you can try prepreg and autoclaves but that is expen$$$$$$ive.

You may want to read something more about Vinyesters we have a copule threads on Homebuiltairplanes page.

 

btw How's your plane coming along, did you start wings? when maiden flight, before Intruder?

[TMann]

Based on?

Well ...... I'm trying to remember which system it is that has a tendancy to absorb moisture. I thought I remembered it as being Vinyesters.

I could easily be wrong as I quit researching epoxy when I decided on MGS.

[mak790]

Well ...... I'm trying to remember which system it is that has a tendancy to absorb moisture. I thought I remembered it as being Vinyesters.

Ok, I thought that you have some doubts about mechanical properties.

I quit researching epoxy when I decided on MGS

And you made good decision, MGS is a very good epoxy it's ideal for standard Long EZ. Of course there are many more products out there but MGS is good enough. Besides you can't use Vinylester with blue foam, because it will disolve blue foam.

 

btw Which one do you use 285 or 335.

[brainfart]

> Some people think that honeycomb and wet/hand layup isn't the best

> connection (even if you use vacuum bag),

 

I cannot agree with that at all. If you're in doubt that the bond between your laminate and the honeycomb is sufficient (e.g. due to not enough epoxy when using carbon fibers) you can use a single, thin, very lightweight layer of open weave glass or other material which will act as a resin storage and allow proper laminate to honeycomb bonding.

 

> My dream to have digital camouflage painting or grey.

 

Isn't that kind of dangerous, making your plane intentionally invisible?

 

> The biggest adventage (in my opinion) for this resin is heat distortion temperature 150C

 

Laminating epoxies with Tgs that high and higher are available, too. Unfortunately there's a trend in epoxy resins, the higher the Tg the more viscous the resin will be. The reactive diluents which are added to the base resins to reduce their viscosity in order to make them usable as laminating resins also reduce the Tg of the final product. Such high Tgs also require post curing at elevated temperatures, you cannot make parts with high Tg by curing them at room temperature or slightly above. If you want a high Tg, your parts needs to be cured at approx. 30K below the desired Tg.

 

I assume that bonding of vinylesters isn't that simple once they are fully cured. I also assume that vinylesters require post-curing to reach high Tg. Anyone?

 

> Vinylester works well for vacuum infuision methods but it isnt the best idea to use them with Carbon or Kevlar.

 

Why not?

 

> Rohacell foam (but it's probably the most expensive foam on the market.)

 

If you do not absolutely need its excellent physical properties, use another foam. There are cheaper foams with great properties.

I hope prices will go down soon though, a second manufacturing plant opened in the US last year, now there are two (the original one being in Germany).

 

> compare Derakane mechanical properties with MGS mechanical properties,

> the biggest differnece is in heat distortion temp 70vs150C

 

Make that 90-110°C, when properly post-cured.

Considering that many planes are being built with West System (Tg around 50°C)...

 

> I'm trying to remember which system it is that has a tendancy to absorb

> moisture. I thought I remembered it as being Vinyesters.

 

Actually it's the epoxies that absorb more moisture. Apart from reducing their Tg a little that's not necessarily a bad thing, moisture makes them less brittle. Mechanical properties just need to be determined on equilibrizised (??) samples if you want real world numbers, not oven-dried ones.

 

> you can't use Vinylester with blue foam, because it will disolve blue foam.

 

Yes, it's still one third styrene and will stink accordingly when working with it.

(There are many jokes about polyester workers who have breathed too much styrene for way too long in the fiber reinforced plastics industry ) I also have doubts about proper curing in honeycomb applications, polyesters often don't cure fully due to the inhibiting properties of styrene vapors in voids, same might be true for vinylesters? It also shrinks just like polyester when it cures.

[mak790]

I cannot agree with that at all. If you're in doubt that the bond between your laminate and the honeycomb is sufficient (e.g. due to not enough epoxy when using carbon fibers) you can use a single, thin, very lightweight layer of open weave glass or other material which will act as a resin storage and allow proper laminate to honeycomb bonding.

I was in hurry and I made a few mistackes.

I meant that it isn't the best idea to use honeycomb in hand layup without vacuum bagging, but it should work fine with vacuum bagging you just need a proper vacuum. Of course you are right about extra layer (attachments) because honeycomb should be bonded wet in wet and also should be vacumbagged, otherwise you might accidently fill up the core cells with resin, which means adding a extra weight to the part.

 

Laminating epoxies with Tgs that high and higher are available, too.

Of course they are available but only in prepregs, at least I've never heard about room cure temp epoxy capable to withstand very hig tg.

 

I assume that bonding of vinylesters isn't that simple once they are fully cured. I also assume that vinylesters require post-curing to reach high Tg. Anyone?

Yes you are right about bonding of fully cured parts, it's all about proper adhesives, vinylester requiare also post-curing, if I rember correctly 5h in 80C or 3h in 120C but I'm not sure right know.

 

Why not?

Because vinylester bonds very well to fiberglass but offers a poor bond to kevlar and carbon fibers.

 

If you do not absolutely need its excellent physical properties, use another foam. There are cheaper foams with great properties.

Of course they are other foams like Divinicell, Airex, and many more but Rohacell has the highest heat distortion temp.

 

It also shrinks just like polyester when it cures.

Yes, you cant use so many layers at once shrinkage is about 8%. But you won't find perfect materials.

 

btw Could you use quote tool next time it will be easier to read for others.