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Open-EZ CAD Drawings

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I bought the Berkut drawings from John.

Besides a ton of details, upgraded design modifications and such, it also had full size templates for the wings and such. Much cleaner than what I got with my Long-EZ plans.

 

It would be nice if a deal could be worked with him to make the same template drawings available to the Open-EZ project.


T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18

Velocity/RG N951TM

Mann's Airplane Factory

We add rocket's to everything!

4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done

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Much cleaner than what I got with my Long-EZ plans.

It would be nice if a deal could be worked with him to make the same template drawings available to the Open-EZ project.

This was my point from the start

concerning the upload this is the message i have

There seems to have been a problem with the Canard Zone database.

Please try again by clicking the Refresh button in your web browser.

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i have tried in PDF and ZIP both under the maximum size (1.11MB)

So i might just mail it to some one so he could put it on the forum

Both are to be baseline/clones of the Long-EZ with all the RAF-approved modifications, period. After that, people will do what they do.

Right?

Agree 100%, just proposed to do the drawings à la berkut, not to incorporate the actual design changes from the berkut

on my side (nothing to do with open ez) i'll do what i do, but i still want to contribute to the open-EZ project as defined by jon

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I have been looking through these forums on the Open EZ project and loving what I am seeing so far! A lot of collaboration, some great posts about drawings being re-done in CAD, and I think to myself, WOW, a forum of people are coming together to breathe new life into a beautiful design! I too have decided I want to build one (Terf CD Purchase in March '09) time-frame. In the mean-time I have a desire to do what Vortal is doing from the CAD drawing perspective. Here is a proposal I want to throw out there:

 

-If we have a set of "Master" templates we can agree on as a Forum (Jon Matcho's would be my first instinct), I propose that we send the drawings to a professional CAD conversion shop and have them converted into A Couple of different formats:

 

-DXF

-DWG

-Pro Engineer

-Catia

-Etc....

 

This way, by using a professional CAD conversion source, we can get exact replicates of the template "master" files we have to work with. This way, we can truly start from the same place. I DO NOT KNOW HOW MUCH IT WILL COST, but I thought it would be worthwhile if Jon agreed to at least get a quote from a Conversion shop. I didn't want to go ahead and send these guys http://www.formatconversion.com/ a copy of Jon's Rev 5 drawings without some nods of approval to get a price quote. Here's my thoughts on the tentative plan should we as a group decide to do this:

 

-Send drawing of wing templates to http://www.formatconversion.com/ and get a price quote back

-This price would be for converting the data to a single layer and producing the formats above

-If we agree on the price, maybe we could set up a fund we can contribute to in order to raise the $ for it as a group. I don't know if we'd just ask for donations or who would collect and execute this task, but we can decide later if we choose to move forward.

-Have company create CAD re-prints

-Post CAD in dedicated area for files where people can Download them (For free since this isn't for profit)

 

I figure this way, if we send them all drawings at once we want converted (RONCZ, BULKHEADS, and WING TEMPLATES, Etc...), we can get a "Baseline" CAD version of the template prints for the Open EZ. If this has no benefit from this communities' point of view I guess this post will not mean much, but if it does, then we can have assuredly accurate CAD versions of the templates in one swoop. In the end we can probably get correct CAD templates as a forum eventually (For free back and forth etc..), but I think this would be a quicker way to get to an end objective together as a forum so we can have a consistent set of templates in CAD from a professional source. From the discussions earlier I still don't see how this would violate copyright law, so I hope we're still in-bounds :). Anywho, thanks for listening!

 

-Chris Z.


Chris Zupp

~Aircraft Designer~

Preliminary Design Sequence I: Project Endeavour

Aeronautical/Mechanical Engineer

Private Pilot

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hem... i don't really see the added value of a simple convertion from raster (pdf) to DWG (free software can do that)

i would go for the drawing update (ie CAD rebuilt) like a couple of us are doing

in a simple widely used format (DWG 2D) this format can be read by all major software (autocad, catia, solidworks, pro-e and others)

Then once the job is done, release a package on a dedicated area in this web-site (www.canardzone.com/Open-EZ/ for exemple) havingthe baseline open ez and the options (ventral air brake, the ruder mod from RAF and all others willing to share there mods (long nose....) so that people can pick and choose what they want on there aircraft...

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Hey Vortal,

I agree we can do it here. The reason I asked if we should have this professionally done is so that we know the lines are "line-on-line" so to speak. A professional will be able to use the software they have to convert the images, and then they would be able to compare the originals easily to the created ones using more sophisticated methods than what I think we're capable of (If I am wrong and someone has that ability please speak up!). I am not nearly as concerned about the bulkhead drawings as I would be the wing/canard/winglet templates. Those should be exact, even if builder variation will change them once started. This way, the design integrity and intent remains the same from original to Open EZ :). That's my $0.02 on why we should consider it as opposed to someone on the forum just doing it. This way we have a professional source for the templates that we can all accept as correct without reasonable doubt... Thanks for the input!

 

-Chris


Chris Zupp

~Aircraft Designer~

Preliminary Design Sequence I: Project Endeavour

Aeronautical/Mechanical Engineer

Private Pilot

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Arbiter

 

Most that are providing CAD drawings here are professional AutoCAD users. This includes myself.

 

The idea of using Raster to Vector conversion is a waste of time. Take a look at my Roncz canard CAD drawing. This was done completely manually and has been verified by myself and others as 100% accurate. In my experience the only reason you would use raster to vector is to save time and therefore money. In this instance we are all working for free anyway.


Adrian Smart

Cozy IV #1453

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Hi Adrian,

I understand where you are coming from! I agree if we have CAD templates that are already verified as 100% Accurate, 'nuff said. Where have you posted the 100% verified Roncz templates? I would like to download them as I get ready for the build. Thank you very much for making them! I am working on getting some CAD together for the bulkheads as I have not seen a comprehensive set for them. Do you know of anyone who has 100% verified CAD drawings of the wing and winglet templates? Thanks for letting me know we already have some of this stuff. What I have been seeing is that people are making CAD left and right, but I had not seen that they were verified against the plans! Have a great day and thank you for your contribution to the Open EZ project!

 

-Chris


Chris Zupp

~Aircraft Designer~

Preliminary Design Sequence I: Project Endeavour

Aeronautical/Mechanical Engineer

Private Pilot

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Hi Adrian,

I understand where you are coming from! I agree if we have CAD templates that are already verified as 100% Accurate, 'nuff said. Where have you posted the 100% verified Roncz templates? I would like to download them as I get ready for the build. Thank you very much for making them! I am working on getting some CAD together for the bulkheads as I have not seen a comprehensive set for them. Do you know of anyone who has 100% verified CAD drawings of the wing and winglet templates? Thanks for letting me know we already have some of this stuff. What I have been seeing is that people are making CAD left and right, but I had not seen that they were verified against the plans! Have a great day and thank you for your contribution to the Open EZ project!

 

-Chris

i had a cad placed over my fw last year and the fit was to wide and to tall but other than that it looked OK, i think they all work together but the wing may need to be tweaked a little

Steve M. Parkins

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i had a cad placed over my fw last year and the fit was to wide and to tall but other than that it looked OK, i think they all work together but the wing may need to be tweaked a little

 

-This is why I suggest we get an outside professional source to convert all the templates. That way we know that things all line up to the originals! When you say it looks OTHER THAN THAT [i.e. those errors] OK, that makes me cringe. The original plans weren't perfect, but we want "Perfect" (Within some agreed upon tolerance, ~1/8" I've seen thrown around a little) to the originals as a starting point for CAD templates. That way we all can feel comfortable we're starting in the same place as the paper templates. I guess this is a moot point though, we do already have "correct" templates to print from that are paper. In the end, builder variation will be what it will be, but if we want to do this right and produce CAD templates, I vote for having a sole professional source we can hold accountable for being correct in the conversion of ALL the templates at one time. Just how I feel :).

 

-Chris


Chris Zupp

~Aircraft Designer~

Preliminary Design Sequence I: Project Endeavour

Aeronautical/Mechanical Engineer

Private Pilot

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I vote for having a sole professional source we can hold accountable for being correct in the conversion of ALL the templates at one time. Just how I feel :)

I don't

I'm not willing to give money to some one to do a job we can do (for free), and that i am almost certain that our final job will be a higher quality more accurate in dimensions and information. anyways in both cases, the information will have to be checked...

 

I 100% agree with Raiki, being also a professional CAD user (not autocad, but whatever)

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I would not bother with trying to convert the drawings to CAD. A better Idea would be to start with the Eppler airfoil. I was not really happy with the Idea of trying to match up the two piece airfoil templates and hope I guessed right.

Do I match up the top and bottom line?

If I do will it result in the proper length?

 

If you could get one good profile to start from and scale it to the proper lengths. The Berkut drawings are CAD generated and provide a solid reference point.

 

I have both sets of drawings and am building my wings based on the Berkut set. I already made my templates from the Long=EZ drawings but scrapped them in favor of the increased accuracy that the Berkut drawings offer.


T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18

Velocity/RG N951TM

Mann's Airplane Factory

We add rocket's to everything!

4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done

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I would not bother with trying to convert the drawings to CAD. A better Idea would be to start with the Eppler airfoil. I was not really happy with the Idea of trying to match up the two piece airfoil templates and hope I guessed right.

Do I match up the top and bottom line?

If I do will it result in the proper length?

 

the airfoil is a modified eppler1230 not the original 1230... and nobody seem to know where it was modified. the more obvious is the la 40% of cord on the lower part of the airfoil, but this doesn't mean that this is it

 

If you could get one good profile to start from and scale it to the proper lengths. The Berkut drawings are CAD generated and provide a solid reference point.

I have both sets of drawings and am building my wings based on the Berkut set. I already made my templates from the Long=EZ drawings but scrapped them in favor of the increased accuracy that the Berkut drawings offer.

i dream to get those in an electronic format (pdf or so, the original model will be to much asked)

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the airfoil is a modified eppler1230 not the original 1230... and nobody seem to know where it was modified. the more obvious is the la 40% of cord on the lower part of the airfoil, but this doesn't mean that this is it

 

I haven't taken the time to print out the eppler airfoil and compare it to my Berkut drawings. I can't imagine there would be much doubt about the nature of the mod once you do this.

 

I might be interested in looking into that ..... once I'm flying mine.


T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18

Velocity/RG N951TM

Mann's Airplane Factory

We add rocket's to everything!

4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done

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-This is why I suggest we get an outside professional source to convert all the templates. That way we know that things all line up to the originals! When you say it looks OTHER THAN THAT [i.e. those errors] OK, that makes me cringe. The original plans weren't perfect, but we want "Perfect" (Within some agreed upon tolerance, ~1/8" I've seen thrown around a little) to the originals as a starting point for CAD templates. That way we all can feel comfortable we're starting in the same place as the paper templates. I guess this is a moot point though, we do already have "correct" templates to print from that are paper. In the end, builder variation will be what it will be, but if we want to do this right and produce CAD templates, I vote for having a sole professional source we can hold accountable for being correct in the conversion of ALL the templates at one time. Just how I feel :).

 

-Chris

Converting CAD drawings from one type to another is generally a very trivial matter. If you feel uncomfortable with what the community can do than I suggest you purchase plans that are readily available (cozy iv, RV, etc) or pre-owned originals.

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I already made my templates from the Long=EZ drawings but scrapped them in favor of the increased accuracy that the Berkut drawings offer.

Not discounting the thoroughness and quality of the way you're building, but I question where this so called increased accuracy comes from. In other words, Berkut began with the same drawings as those had by everyone else. How much more advanced could they get over what everyone/anyone else is able to do?

Jon Matcho :busy:
Canard Zone Member & Administrator
Now:  Rebuilding Quickie Tri-Q200 N479E
Next:  Building a Cozy Mark IV

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Not discounting the thoroughness and quality of the way you're building, but I question where this so called increased accuracy comes from. In other words, Berkut began with the same drawings as those had by everyone else. How much more advanced could they get over what everyone/anyone else is able to do?

Excellent question Jon. And I really don't know for sure but perhaps we could vett that here.

The Berkut wing template at BL 55 is created as a one piece drawing. The measurement from leading edge to the trailing edge line is 42.63 inches. It's the same for all copies of the Berkut drawings.

 

What are the results from the drafted and photo copied plans (like the drawings I got with my Long-EZ.) I would like the airfoil templates to be made available as a CAD quality drawing to insure consistancy. The next level would be to laser cut the templates out of aluminum (say 16 guage.)

And of course the next level is being addressed by folks like Eureka.

 

So what are builders coming up with for this measurement?


T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18

Velocity/RG N951TM

Mann's Airplane Factory

We add rocket's to everything!

4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done

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I would like the airfoil templates to be made available as a CAD quality drawing to insure consistancy.

Take a look at my last post in the sticky thread.


Adrian Smart

Cozy IV #1453

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Hey Guys,

I am beginning work on my own set of CAD templates in Pro E. I have had success with the FS48 lower IP panel template, and then when I moved on to the upper panel I ran into a descrepancy. on the template for FS40 upper I found the symbol BL 11.20 where the longerons intersect the IP. This is all well and good, except when I measured the lower panel and built it I read 11.125 from the centerline to the edge. It also looked like this panel was straight from the top to bottom on each side. Am I mistaken, and if so, which is the correct measurement? I am pretty confident I have all the correct dimensions, but not sure if there is a template in-consistency or if the panel is supposed to "bow" out towards the top somehow... I do not detect any bow with my eyes, but after messing with it all day now I can no longer see straight. Please help me out fellow CAD Canarders ;). Thanks!

 

-Chris


Chris Zupp

~Aircraft Designer~

Preliminary Design Sequence I: Project Endeavour

Aeronautical/Mechanical Engineer

Private Pilot

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???:confused: The Instrument panel is FS40. How are you coming up with a FS48?

I'm going off of my Long=EZ plans/build.

The sides are straight. The measurement should be the same top and bottom.

When I measure the width of my panel it's at 22.5 (installed.)

The standard panel runs straight up and down at FS40 but many have cut the panel about 5 inches from the floor and then beveled it by 7 degrees towards FS28.

The 7 degree figure is based on standard vacuum instuments being able to function. Glass panel can tilt by as much as 15 degrees to maintan the best viewing angle.


T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18

Velocity/RG N951TM

Mann's Airplane Factory

We add rocket's to everything!

4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done

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I found the symbol BL 11.20 where the longerons intersect the IP. This is all well and good, except when I measured the lower panel and built it I read 11.125 from the centerline to the edge.

Hi, Chris,

Don't forget (you and every other CAD users) that the drawings are drawn by hand and this is a home built aircraft, there is NO WAY you are going to go down to 0.075in in precision (2mm) by hand layuping and knife trimming your foam. so you might do a couple of adjustment in your (perfect) model (unless using CNC for you foam and automatic layup machine for your plies... but if you do what are you doing building an EZ, build a jet ;)

 

by the way don't forget to add thikness in your model to simulate the plies, dimensions on the drawings a the ones for the foam alone...(then again negligible?)

 

Good luck

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Hi, Chris,

Don't forget (you and every other CAD users) that the drawings are drawn by hand and this is a home built aircraft, there is NO WAY you are going to go down to 0.075in in precision (2mm) by hand layuping and knife trimming your foam. so you might do a couple of adjustment in your (perfect) model (unless using CNC for you foam and automatic layup machine for your plies... but if you do what are you doing building an EZ, build a jet ;)

 

by the way don't forget to add thikness in your model to simulate the plies, dimensions on the drawings a the ones for the foam alone...(then again negligible?)

 

Good luck

The plan is to reproduce the templates in CAD so I can make a few modifications to the panel and mid-fuse bulkheads. It is FS40 to Tmann's earlier reply, my bad! I appreciate the measurements as well, they will help me determine what is going on in the drawing I made. I also made an interesting discovery while doing this process of conversion, I discovered the left and right leg and map holes are different sizes! This may seem trivial, but I honestly didn't notice this until I went through this process. Maybe others pick up things like that during the build (Which I am sure they do), but for me it's more about understanding the design. Also, it helps point out potential discrepancies between the templates and what turns out in reality. Maybe it is a moot point in the end of doing CAD drawings, but I don't have the $$ to start the build yet, and may not for a while, so I say why not dork around with it, learn PRO E better because of it, learn the pitfalls of conversion, and maybe in the end being able to have a more thorough understanding of the plans themselves. There is something to be said for building a 3D model and then going out and putting the pieces together myself when $$ is available... It's largely what we do in the engineering world anyway. Models, analysis, test :).... Anywho, goodnight, and thanks for the measurement!

 

-Chris


Chris Zupp

~Aircraft Designer~

Preliminary Design Sequence I: Project Endeavour

Aeronautical/Mechanical Engineer

Private Pilot

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Been there done that.

 

[ATTACH]1692[/ATTACH]

 

hey guys,

I was looking @ the rev 5 drawings and digitizing them. I currently have all bulkheads shown done with exception of the firewall... The two slanted seat bulkheads I have not been able to find in the template drawings. Is there a sheet that might be missing, or where did you folks get the dimensions of the plans from for the pilot's seat and the pax seat. Thanks!

 

-Chris


Chris Zupp

~Aircraft Designer~

Preliminary Design Sequence I: Project Endeavour

Aeronautical/Mechanical Engineer

Private Pilot

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where did you folks get the dimensions of the plans from for the pilot's seat and the pax seat.

Chapter 4

Step 1: Front Seat Bulkhead

Step 2: Rear Seat Bulkhead.

 

The sketches are on pages 4-1 & 4-2.


T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18

Velocity/RG N951TM

Mann's Airplane Factory

We add rocket's to everything!

4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done

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Alright, I'll take a look there! Thanks!

 

-Chris


Chris Zupp

~Aircraft Designer~

Preliminary Design Sequence I: Project Endeavour

Aeronautical/Mechanical Engineer

Private Pilot

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Hi,

 

Not that I'm going to start building the ‘open’long EZ tomorrow, but one day… I hope...

So, to avoid a possible long search in a few months, is it possible to download CAD files somewhere? (dwg format)

I already downloaded the pdf’s a few weeks ago but I must admit that good 3D drawings are much easier to work with.

At this moment I’m working on a hybrid project for my Shadow (it’s a pusher too) and if the results are as expected, a hybrid for the EZ is the next step.

As I’m designing all engine parts in 3D, all 3D or 2D drawings of the EZ are most helpful.

 

Thanks

Lemans – France/Belgium

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