Jump to content

Rotary Simplity Equals Reliability?


Crazycanuck

Recommended Posts

C'mon Dennis........ it's all on his website: http://www.ductedfan.com

 

Actually Perry was one of the early influences for my choice.

I haven't done any MagnumPI work on the Rotary-pusher install users since my reading of Slades and Bulys work. So since this pusher-flyer was kind enough to post his positive install [and he is the only one- to post suchly] I was just asking for more info and any other pusher-rotaryfliers he might know of. I am just trying to help people get some info. One guy is good, but more pusher-install experiences would be better.

Self confessed Wingnut.

Now think about it...wouldn't you rather LIVE your life, rather than watch someone else's, on Reality T.V.?

Get up off that couch!!! =)

 

Progress; Fuselage on all three, with outside and inside nearly complete. 8 inch extended nose. FHC done. Canard finished. ERacer wings done with blended winglets. IO540 starting rebuild. Mounting Spar. Starting strake ribs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I haven't done any MagnumPI work on the Rotary-pusher install users since my reading of Slades and Bulys work. So since this pusher-flyer was kind enough to post his positive install [and he is the only one- to post suchly] I was just asking for more info and any other pusher-rotaryfliers he might know of. I am just trying to help people get some info. One guy is good, but more pusher-install experiences would be better.

Ron Gowan (Texas) put a couple hundred hours on a rotary Long-EZ in the early 90s.

 

Greg Richter had a turbo rotary in a Cozy for awhile, he replaced it with a jet engine. That rotary engine with turbo is now being installed in a Long-EZ in the Seattle area.

 

George Graham (Florida) flew a rotary Eracer for several years, he accumulated several hundred hours. His first flight was about the same time as mine, circa 1999.

 

John Slade turbo Cozy you know about.

 

Al Giezen is currently flying a rotary Velocity in Southern California, still in test period I think.

 

Mike Perry (Florida?) has been flying a rotary Long-EZ, haven't heard much from him lately. Despite the similarity of the name, he is not me.

 

Paul Conner flew a rotary SQ2000 but unfortunately had a fatal accident while still in test period. Fuel supply to engine or injector-related problem.

 

Joe Hull (Seattle) flew a rotary Cozy for awhile but is now installing a Lyco. He had some adventures with his homebuilt exhaust system and broken spark ingestion (incorrect spark plugs IMHO).

 

That's all that comes to mind right now for flying rotary canards. Apologies if I missed anyone. With about 675 hours now I think I have the highest time in a rotary canard. There are other aircraft types flying with more rotary hours, RVs and gyrocopters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ron Gowan (Texas) put a couple hundred hours on a rotary Long-EZ in the early 90s.

And removed it. He's now flying a Lycoming (and has been for a number of years).

 

Greg Richter had a turbo rotary in a Cozy for awhile, he replaced it with a jet engine. That rotary engine with turbo is now being installed in a Long-EZ in the Seattle area.

My understanding is that Greg never could get the 20B to run reliably. Don't know why - I'm sure others who have more contact with Greg can comment on this.

 

George Graham (Florida) flew a rotary Eracer for several years, he accumulated several hundred hours. His first flight was about the same time as mine, circa 1999.

George's engine seemed to run pretty well, but he did have issues with his home-made PSRU.

 

Al Giezen is currently flying a rotary Velocity in Southern California, still in test period I think.

Not familiar with that plane. Where's it based out of?

 

Mike Perry (Florida?) has been flying a rotary Long-EZ, haven't heard much from him lately.

Haven't heard of that one, either.

 

Paul Conner flew a rotary SQ2000 but unfortunately had a fatal accident while still in test period. Fuel supply to engine or injector-related problem.

Numerous issues with the engine set up and the aircraft itself. See the write-up on my web pages - I did the accident investigation with a number of other folks.

 

That's all that comes to mind right now for flying rotary canards.

There's also Steve Brooks' COZY MKIV with a turbo 13B in South Carolina. IIRC, Steve has about 20-30 hours on the plane in 4 years.

 

There's also a widened and stretched COZY MKIV with a 20B in it that was last seen in PA about three years ago, and the A&P working on it said that he wouldn't fly it for all the $$$ in the world. After looking over the plane and engine installation for an hour or so, I agreed with him. Don't know the owner's name, but he bought it from the builder (Brice Daunay) and got hosed.

 

With about 675 hours now I think I have the highest time in a rotary canard.

No doubt. With all due respect, you're really one of two canards with a rotary engine that's been reasonably successful (proven). Here's the list:

 

Removed Rotary from canard for something else:

Gowan

Richter

Aliev

Hull

 

Crashed Rotary canard (engine related):

Conner

 

Flying Rotary canard (very few hours):

Giezen

Perry

Brooks

Other (unknown owner)

 

Flying Rotary canard (few hours):

Slade

 

Flying Rotary canard (many hours):

Graham

Mick

 

So, out of 12 known rotary canards that have flown, four have removed the engine for something else. One crashed and destroyed the plane. Three are in the very early stages of flying - the success of these is unknown (and Steve rarely flies, so I don't know whether that one will ever be proven one way or the other). One has flown out of the Phase I period (legally), but has had many engine related issues. With 80 hours on his plane in approximately 4 years, there's no way that I would consider John Slade's plane a "proven success".

 

That leaves George Graham's E-Racer and Perry Mick's Long-EZ as the two successful Rotary installations in canards. Again, with all due respect to Perry, who's made his installation work, a 16% success rate is not great. Hell, an 80% success rate is not great. Even if ALL of the low time folks become successful, that will be a 50% success rate.

 

I admire and applaud those who attempt to make these engines work on these aircraft - I refrained from installing an auto conversion because I know how much work it is, even as much as I would have liked a Subaru. But for anyone to think that their odds of success are high when installing one of these - well, you only have to look at the facts. For whatever reasons, these engines do NOT lead to high time, successful aircraft, on a regular basis.

 

I put 120 hours/year on my plane. Even Perry doesn't come close to that, and that's NOT a lot of hours. Nick Ugolini (admittedly 3 sigma off to the right) puts 300-400 hours on his Lyc. powered LE.

 

As I've said many time before, I WISH that I was wrong about these (and other) auto conversions - I wish like hell that there was something newer, simpler, easier to deal with, and cheaper (not to mention MORE reliable and higher power) to put in these planes. But there isn't, and I'm not. Hopefully, in the future, there will be, and I will be :-).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't have any fundamental disagreements with your analysis Mr. Zeitlin. It's always good to have some data to analyze.

 

A few comments:

 

Richter had a turbo 13B, not a 20B. I've seen this engine in a hangar in Everett Washington, now being installed on a Long-EZ.

 

Al Gietzen is flying his 20B Velocity out of the San Diego area I think, not sure which field.

 

Sorry, I forgot about Steve Brooks. Knew I was probably forgetting somebody!

 

If I were flying around with a Lycoming, I would be worried about the piston blowing out of the cylinder, as Dick Rutan experienced recently.

 

With my rotary, I don't worry about a failure of the engine itself. If I ever experience an engine stoppage it will not likely be due to the engine itself, it will probably be something else related to EFI, electronic ignition, overall electrical failure, coolant leak, or PSRU related. Regardless of installed engine, it's not wise to take too many risks flying your canard at low altitude over hostile terrain.

 

I considered but discarded the turbo option, IMO just not enough room and too much engine compartment heat for a Long-EZ. A turbo increases the chance of detonation which can and does fracture apex seals.

 

I was flying about 100 hours a year but that's tapered off a bit lately. My running average now over the last 8.5 years is 80 hours/year. If I don't fly at least once a week I get withdrawal symptoms.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I would say that the obvious problem is that the Rotary just does not work if it's facing the wrong way. I mean, you have all those guys flying the RVs with a r0tary and they don't have problems. :confused:

 

In reality, I think it's a great solution. Mistral has them available in the same configuration you would expect to experience in a Lycoming purchase. PSRU, Ignition, Fuel system ........ the works. The factors that come into play (as cited by Marc) are when builders start trying to cheap out and make their own PSRU, egnition system, etc.

 

'Cheap' is not what has drawn me to the rotary. I've looked at these engines as my power plant ever since I first bought my plans (in the mid 80s).

 

Try researching www.mistral-engines.com . The effort to certify the 300hp 3 rotor engine started in March of 2007. Once they accomplish that we will be able to reduce this thread to comparing certified to non-certified.

 

The types of engine failure you will NOT experience on a rotary include blown headgasket, blown rod, sucked up a valve, bent push rod, broken camshaft, etc. etc.

 

So I think that if you can rule out items of that nature, we can figure out the rest.

T Mann - Loooong-EZ/20B Infinity R/G Chpts 18

Velocity/RG N951TM

Mann's Airplane Factory

We add rocket's to everything!

4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 14, 19, 20 Done

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A turbo increases the chance of detonation which can and does fracture apex seals.

DING! You got exactly the reason why all the RX-7 (and to a much more limited extent, some RX-8 folks) performance guys keep churning through engines. Boost + Rotary = Bad. Period.

 

I actually drive a Mazda now myself, and when I was evaluating what car I wanted for RELIABLE high performance, I test drove the RX8 and Speed6 and chose the Speed6 over it, because I knew that I could turn up the boost and wring more power, more reliably, from a piston engine. The car is already in the low 13's in the 1/4 mile... 12's this summer hopefully. And yeah.. it's a big fat heavy sedan. heh.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Marc,

 

Here is a link to Al's website.

 

http://members.cox.net/alg3/airplane.htm

 

As stated, he is running a 20b in his standard Velocity retract. His site shows his dyno runs and other tech stuff you may appreciate. I met Al at the Velocity Symposium held north of Dallas in Feb of 2006. Solid character, clear thinker and nice guy. At the time he was having trouble with his install in the form of expensive insurance. I believe he finally found some insurance he could live with. Also, Al is active on the Flyrotary.com list. He too is an engineer and tends to document his progress and events well. FWIW.

 

I believe that Greg Richter's bird was a 13b turbo. IIRC, maybe from Mr. Slade's site, that Greg liked his rotary and would have stayed with it if he didn't want to go the jet route.

 

In any case, I am stilll churning away on my 13b install on my Velocity down here in Houston. As always, thanks for the clear analysis....even if it is not always in accord with my pursuits. <g>

 

All the best,

 

Chris Barber

Houston

Christopher Barber

Velocity SE/FG w/yoke. Zoom, zoom, zoom.

www.LoneStarVelocity.com

 

Live with Passion...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I would say that the obvious problem is that the Rotary just does not work if it's facing the wrong way. I mean, you have all those guys flying the RVs with a r0tary and they don't have problems. :confused:

 

I wouldn't say they haven't had any problems. Some are accumulating significant hours now.

 

Actually in a pusher the engine is oriented in the correct direction - same as in the car. It's those tractor guys that have it backwards.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Marc,

Brice Denay's Cozy is the one that some helpful person sincerly suggested Randi & I purchase. The new owner took it to Robert & Valerie. After Valerie inspected it she mercifully took a chainsaw to the airframe. (I think that was a sign of dissaproval?)

The 20B was sitting on a pallet waiting to be shipped out. It in itself looked like a refugee from a parential planning clinic.

You can mark that one down as formerly flying but the aircraft failed inspecton.

...Chrissi

CG Products

www.CozyGirrrl.com

Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B Turbo

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information