Can a Cozy be "safely" ditched at sea?

[Edge 513]

Right on,, Andrew.

[robinson217]

Is the objective to go into the ocean in your bird if the engine goes quiet? In stead of putting a BRS into the airplane, why not strap a conventional human-saving parachute to your back.

 

I am assuming that you will be wearing a thermal suit, etc also.

 

If you are going to ditch it, is it not pretty much certain that the airplane is a gonner? I vote for saving your own behind at that point. Maybe with a personal ELT or satellite phone in hand?

 

ZY

The objective is to fly around the world and come home to my wife in one peice. That said, she will never approve of this flight unless I go above and beyond on the safety factor. A BRS would be nice, because a foam airplane is its own life raft......if you don't turn it into foam chunks...a real possibility landing on water. I would think "bailing" would have just as many risks as ditching, with the added draw back of being separated from any life supporting equipment stored on board.

 

Just imagine trying to jump out of a plane carrying everything you will need to survive for maybe a week on the open ocean. I have already started making a list for my "Oh S#!T kit". This kit will include things nessesary to survive on land or at sea.

 

Survial suit (worn on all legs of flight over water)

Personal Locator Beacons (at least two)

Satalite phone

life raft

MRE's

water

first aid kit

Dye canisters (sea)

smoke canisters(land)

Fire makeing tools

Fire extinguisher

a hatchet

a .22 caliber survival rifle (perhaps layed up in the airframe, out of sight)

and maybe some fishing tackle.

 

And you guys said I didn't need a four place!

 

Did I forget anything?

 

Hopefully all this stuff will just take up space in the cockpit. But if I need it, I'll have it.

[pezzi]

...I originally was looking to buy a set of un-used long ez plans, but soon realized I could never fit all that fuel...

 

It has been done: Swiss H.G. Schmid rounded the world twice (eastwards and westwards) in 2000 in has Long EZ HB-YCT and sat several world records

http://www.earthrounders.com/cgi/hgs_story.php'> http://www.earthrounders.com/cgi/hgs_story.php

[Big Steve]

Survial suit (worn on all legs of flight over water)
Personal Locator Beacons (at least two)
Satalite phone
life raft
MRE's
water
first aid kit
Dye canisters (sea)
smoke canisters(land)
Fire makeing tools
Fire extinguisher
a hatchet
a .22 caliber survival rifle (perhaps layed up in the airframe, out of sight)
and maybe some fishing tackle.

 

Your forgot you have to build the plane first it generally takes about 5 years and 2-3 thousand hours. Start building. STeve:cool2:

[MarcEZ]

Don't let these guys throw you. Lots and lots of people do ocean crossings in fixed gear singles. I'd guess about 40/year on the Atlantic route. I've done two myself. Fixed gear ditchings rarely flip. The key is getting all your stuff out in about 3 minutes. Bring a portable GPS and a Satphone. Carry them on your person. You'll also be wearing your imersion suit. That won't be comfortable in a cozy. Planning is everything. The flight itself is pretty easy. Two tips: 1 take plenty of snacks and water. 2. Don't put your wallet in your back pocket-it will hurt after 10- hours.

Marc Longez 770EZ

[pezzi]

.... I originally was looking to buy a set of un-used long ez plans, but soon realized I could never fit all that fuel, PLUS a life raft, emercency rations, a first aid kit and my baggage. Not to mention it has a small panel, and I need a lot of navigation and communication equipment. ....

 

This has been done: in 2000 Swiss H.G. Schmid rounded the world twice (eastbound and westbound) in his Long EZ HB-YCT

 

http://www.earthrounders.com/cgi/hgs_story.php

 

pezzi

[Lynn Erickson]

 

Survial suit (worn on all legs of flight over water)

Personal Locator Beacons (at least two)

Satalite phone

life raft

MRE's

water

first aid kit

Dye canisters (sea)

smoke canisters(land)

Fire makeing tools

Fire extinguisher

a hatchet

a .22 caliber survival rifle (perhaps layed up in the airframe, out of sight)

and maybe some fishing tackle.

 

And you guys said I didn't need a four place!

 

Did I forget anything?

 

Hopefully all this stuff will just take up space in the cockpit. But if I need it, I'll have it.

I'm trying to picture someone getting into a Cozy wearing a Survial suit with a sat phone in one hand and a dye canister in the other.

[WolfManSpecial]

imagination my brother..imagination

[Lynn Erickson]

imagination my brother..imagination

while building the plane in a nice warm shop and showing everyone that visits how roomy it really is, you come to the day when it is winter and the plane is outside. then the reality is realized, you can fit in the plane or your big heavy jacket will fit in the plane but you wearing your big heavy jacket, not so much, a little tighter then you would like.

[chasingmars]

Survial suit (worn on all legs of flight over water

Constant wear immersion suits can be less than comfortable for long periods of time, however, it's my understanding this is how military overwater flights are done for some aircraft (Our Sea Kings here in Canada being somewhat older than most of their Pilots I gather work this way), at any rate, a dry suit won't do that much good if you're not in it when you ditch. Depending on the water temperature, you can become ineffective very quickly in cold water.

Personal Locator Beacons (at least two)

One should be sufficient, modern 406MHz systems can get your position to a rescue centre within about 15 minutes

Satellite Phone

More for routine operations on the trek than for ditching use I think.

MRE's

Proteins and such take a lot of water to digest, if you don't have lots of water, you need all-carbohydrate survival rations, that you can eat to subsist without dehydrating yourself. You can fish for protiens if you need to, and you have water (you need fresh water far more than food in the short to medium term)

water

Moreover, a watermaker pump, so you can make water from seawater.

Dye canisters (sea)

These days, some rafts are using a lightweight long orange plastic streamer that you can throw behind instead of the sea dye marker, which are limited in how long they last.

smoke canisters(land)

At least one type of these are day/night with a flare end and a smoke end

a .22 caliber survival rifle (perhaps layed up in the airframe, out of sight)

 

Great way to make sure you never get to ditching because a rightfully indignant nation confiscates your plane for smuggling a weapon.

 

Did I forget anything?

Missing:

Floatation vest

A knife, preferably also a raft knife (sharp edge inside for cutting cords but can't cut the raft), ideally the raft knife is in a float vest pocket.

Signalling mirror (has a hole in the centre for sighting what you want to signal) and whistle

aformentioned reverse osmosis pump and/or solar still (one takes effort, but that's not necessarily bad in a survival situation, the second won't work if cloudy but if it's sunny it's free water)

Insect repellant (not all emergency ditching is overwater)

Sunscreen (exposure kills)

"Space" blanket (doubles as sunshade/rainwater collector)

Sutureing thread and needle, topical antibiotic, copies of prescriptions as nec etc in the first aid kit

Iodine tabs (freshwater purification)

Light Neoprene gloves so you can have some use of fingers in cold water.

Hand-crank or solar recharged or long life battery LED flashlight

Touque to reduce heat loss through the head, one that will be warm even wet

spool of high strength line

Some method of attaching your raft to your life preserver with a line

Anti-nausea pills (seasickness can kill your through dehydration)

monocular, waterproof

Fishing line/hooks isn't a maybe but a must, in case your ELT doesn't do it's job or gets separated from you you will need food, and you can make snares for small animals on land from same.

Much of your camping gear becomes survival gear if the time comes (tent, sleeping bag, etc)

A good land and sea survival course - knowing what to do is vital (even for something as simple as on rescue letting the metal part of the basket lowered from a helicopter touch water before touching it, to avoid shock from rotor static discharge, and little things like that), also a survival reference (in waterproof container), especially with what is edible/poisonous (some reef fish for example are prone to a toxin they tolerate but that will paralyse you) and first aide.

Probably a number of other things I've forgotten but that good research will turn up.

 

All sea ditching stuff packed in a floating pack, linked by line to the a/c (with the raft knife accessable so you can cut the line if the plane starts to sink/catch fire, etc) with a ring on the line near the a/c end of it so you can hang on with your arms when your hands are too cold to work so you don't loose it after you cut the line to the a/c.

[Cozy1200]

how about getting in contact with some of these guys that ferry new airplanes over long distances? They would surely be a bundle of information on how to prepare. It would probably be good training to see if you could tag along as a training flight. Then again I may be suggesting anything you've already thought of doing.

 

I admire your dream. Go Big or Go Home.

 

funny side story...

One of my wife's piano students, an 80 year old retired CPA, had a Piper Seneca ferried in from the states. Along with long range tanks, he told the US company he bought it from that he wanted a DME for it (pre GPS days). Upon arrival he found the New DME.... still in the original cardboard box NOT INSTALLED laying in the back seat. The ferry pilot about had a cow to learn he could have been using it the entire trip. He wasn't too happy about it, the reason he ordered it was to help the ferry pilot.

[WolfManSpecial]

while building the plane in a nice warm shop and showing everyone that visits how roomy it really is, you come to the day when it is winter and the plane is outside. then the reality is realized, you can fit in the plane or your big heavy jacket will fit in the plane but you wearing your big heavy jacket, not so much, a little tighter then you would like.

the first image than come to me is a very tigh hot dog:D

[Waiter]

Heres a link for the North Atlantic requirements. It will give you a start.

 

http://www.smallurl.info/?r=30b

 

Waiter

[JTest]

G'day

 

I have looked into the fly around the rock idea. First when I moved to Australia and I wanted to take my Cessna 172.... Here are my thoughts:

 

1. Any airplane can be ditched safely at sea. The research shows over 90% of ditched aircraft are survived. Fixed gear doen't make a difference more than 3% according to the research of several hundred ditchings. Fixed gear don't flip anymore than retracts.

 

2. The Cozy uses almost the same wing as the Long EZ wing. the Cozy does require weight with single pilot. The Long EZ does not. The current FAI world record for under 2000 lbs. around the world both East and West is a Long EZ flown by the late Hans Georg Schmid. Check the FAI or Earthrounders.com sites.

 

3. Purchas a 408 EPIRB, extra hand (AA battery) held radio, emergency helo (single crewmember life raft), Mac 110 aviation flight suit (with gloves and hood) for water under 70 degree flights, pocket fishing rod, signal mirror, roll of bright orange crime tape, knife, matches, desalination pump. I purchased a spare air (divers) just in case the plane did flip (extra breath of air could be priceless to get out of the plane. I also have a landshark survival blanket. A light bike helmet with reflective tape to make sure your skull makes it past the impact. The key is to put you hand on a hand hold so you don't get disoriented if the plane flips. Also purchase a PFD that will not inflate when wet (I have a SOSpenders version that has a kevalar protective cover); you will wear it the whole flight over water.

 

4. The seas should have a regular periodic swell due to your flight being made with good weather (less than 10 knot head winds and less than 15 knot any winds for the 2000 mile distance from CA to HI). The water is fairly warm and you may not need the Mac 110 for this leg. I would recommend you look into the Navy and Coast Guard Aviation manuals on ditching. You will want to ditch on the back side of swells. Line up on the swell and land parallel to the waves....

 

Good luck, but I think the Open EZ with wing pods full of fuel with an O-320 engine is the best solution....

 

Jeff

[argoldman]

G'day

 

I have looked into the fly around the rock idea. First when I moved to Australia and I wanted to take my Cessna 172.... Here are my thoughts:

 

1. Any airplane can be ditched safely at sea. The research shows over 90% of ditched aircraft are survived. Fixed gear doen't make a difference more than 3% according to the research of several hundred ditchings. Fixed gear don't flip anymore than retracts.

 

2. The Cozy uses almost the same wing as the Long EZ wing. the Cozy does require weight with single pilot. The Long EZ does not. The current FAI world record for under 2000 lbs. around the world both East and West is a Long EZ flown by the late Hans Georg Schmid. Check the FAI or Earthrounders.com sites.

 

3. Purchas a 408 EPIRB, extra hand (AA battery) held radio, emergency helo (single crewmember life raft), Mac 110 aviation flight suit (with gloves and hood) for water under 70 degree flights, pocket fishing rod, signal mirror, roll of bright orange crime tape, knife, matches, desalination pump. I purchased a spare air (divers) just in case the plane did flip (extra breath of air could be priceless to get out of the plane. I also have a landshark survival blanket. A light bike helmet with reflective tape to make sure your skull makes it past the impact. The key is to put you hand on a hand hold so you don't get disoriented if the plane flips. Also purchase a PFD that will not inflate when wet (I have a SOSpenders version that has a kevalar protective cover); you will wear it the whole flight over water.

 

4. The seas should have a regular periodic swell due to your flight being made with good weather (less than 10 knot head winds and less than 15 knot any winds for the 2000 mile distance from CA to HI). The water is fairly warm and you may not need the Mac 110 for this leg. I would recommend you look into the Navy and Coast Guard Aviation manuals on ditching. You will want to ditch on the back side of swells. Line up on the swell and land parallel to the waves....

 

Good luck, but I think the Open EZ with wing pods full of fuel with an O-320 engine is the best solution....

 

Jeff

 

There are two issues with ditching.

 

1. will the plane float. I don't know but would suspect yes. Having had a series of Bellanca Vikings with wooden wings, I am aware that these do float, if only with the engine down. I would assume since the EZs are all of foam (mostly air) that they would do the same. (although nose up)

 

2. can you survive the landing. Again, probably yes. There have been reports of water landing successfully. One of the secrets is to land with the nose gear extended. It appears as if this configuration acts as a water ski (due to its backward rake) giving, instead of a tripping action, a gentle letdown. (don't try steering with the brakes, however.)

[JTest]

G'day

 

Oh I forgot the most important thing you will learn in survival class. The Rules of Three: There are only three so it is easy to remember.....sometimes.

 

Rule One: Your can only live for three minutes without AIR.

 

Rule Two: You can only live for three days without fresh drinking water.

 

Rule Three: You can live up to three weeks without food.

 

Always make sure you have satisfied the lowest rule before solving the higher rules....

 

I think you can see the logic.....

 

Jeff

[Edge 513]

Man, those 3's are sure convenient.=]

A while back I went without any food at all- just a little bit of water every 3-4 hours, for 3 full 24 hour days..and felt okay. It was just a "thing" of mine...

Not carrying on high calorie workload just once a day bike trainer for 45 mins and medium intensity weightlifting...but I wouldn't want to try it without water...felt pretty dang empty in there.

[Cozy Girrrl]

Read up on liferaft survival from different yachties that have had mid ocean accidents. The bookshelf in any West Marine Supply is loaded with them. Oddly enough you are surrounded by it but you cannot put any of it in your mouth.

 

I think I have lived most of my XX years without a sip of water. That said, lets just say you need to take in moisture bearing materials. Raw fish, fish eyes, collected rain, a solar water vapor condenser, hand operated reverse osmosis pump. Also conserving what moisture you have in you is essential, staying out of the direct sun, exposure, avoid diuretics, avoid losing moisture.

Avoid dehydration from motion sickness, food poisening or diarhhea.

 

As much as my family moved around in my early years the message was always the same; "Do NOT drink the water", so it was cola, juice, wine, beer, tea and coffee, bottled water usually was of the mineral variety and no matter how "healthy" it does not taste good enough to drink... ever.

...Chrissi

[robinson217]

WOW! I want to thank all you folks for the good info. I havn't signed on in 24 hrs. I see you have been busy.

 

Now if I didn't start enough trouble by broaching the "BRS subject", here is somthing to ponder.......

 

I have been planning my route for several years. The availability of AvGas in some parts of the world will be a problem. What do you guys think of the Delta Hawk Deisels? Should I start a new thread?

[Edge 513]

Your question is like an echo in a canyon.

There are no Deltahock engines. No Innodyn engines, no Mistral engines, no...you get the idea. Promises without production...look up the disgusted threads-despite peoples claims of seeing these various bigfoots at OshKosh...they are myth.

Oh, and Thielert -if they really are viable in the 200hp ramge- won't sell to experimentals.

Man, I hate to be the cold water.

[robinson217]

Your question is like an echo in a canyon.

There are no Deltahock engines. No Innodyn engines, no Mistral engines, no...you get the idea. Promises without production...look up the disgusted threads-despite peoples claims of seeing these various bigfoots at OshKosh...they are myth.

Oh, and Thielert -if they really are viable in the 200hp ramge- won't sell to experimentals.

Man, I hate to be the cold water.

Yeah, My Boss (who is trying to clear out time and space to start his Cozy) says the Delta Hawk engines have been "almost ready" for ten years.

 

One can dream:rolleyes:

[chasingmars]

Yeah, My Boss (who is trying to clear out time and space to start his Cozy)

If you've got a build partner, you'll save some time, there's lots of things that can be done, at least in the earlier chapters more easily and quicker with help and reusing the jig/template, whatever in a run of two to reduce your setup time. Doing routed bulkheads I think probably becomes a timesaver if you're building more than one.

 

If you're on good terms and both similarly motivated/serious, team up for some of the constrution maybe? Many of the early pieces are pretty transportable so a single shop / independant storage might work.

[robinson217]

If you've got a build partner, you'll save some time, there's lots of things that can be done, at least in the earlier chapters more easily and quicker with help and reusing the jig/template, whatever in a run of two to reduce your setup time. Doing routed bulkheads I think probably becomes a timesaver if you're building more than one.

 

If you're on good terms and both similarly motivated/serious, team up for some of the constrution maybe? Many of the early pieces are pretty transportable so a single shop / independant storage might work.

In a perfect world we could build them at the same time, but since buying his plans my boss and his wife have adopted some special needs children. Very noble, but makes for bad cozy building. I think its going to be a few years before he builds his. But he has been a great resourse since he took aero engineering at Cal Poly.

 

I have thought about bringing in a partner, but I want to be able to decide exactly how to do everything. Not hash out every detail with someone else.

 

I'm an A&P with about 3 years experience. I hope I'm not over estimating my skills taking on such a project. I have a feeling I will be on this forum ALOT in the coming years.

[Jack F.]

Can you name an amphibian that can cruise above 150 kts and carry enough fuel for my mission?

AirShark - http://www.chooseyouritem.com/airplanes/files/8000/8487.html

[Aiman]

Mil spec dye pack, the only one to get IMO. These are the ones that I carry on my boat.

 

http://www.landfallnavigation.com/-sfdye.html